NationStates

Guys, can we calm down and tackle one thing at a time?

I'm all for change, but waving our spears in the air and chanting, "Fix it! Fix it! Fix it!" at the mods has already been shown to be fruitless. Fris has pointed out that the moderation team is in fact facing real issues with "fixing it," but our problem is that their solution for those issues isn't working out. The fact is though, this is all moderation can come up with. If we want change, we're going to need to put our heads together, think of a way to untangle these problems ourselves, and then present what we find to the people upstairs. We have to do more than campaign, we have to actively draw up new documents.

Is there any mentor still on right now that would be willing to put together some sort of way for those with ideas to come together and discuss their possibility for being incorporated into the site?

You have my support.

Giovenith wrote:Guys, can we calm down and tackle one thing at a time?

I'm all for change, but waving our spears in the air and chanting, "Fix it! Fix it! Fix it!" at the mods has already been shown to be fruitless. Fris has pointed out that the moderation team is in fact facing real issues with "fixing it," but our problem is that their solution for those issues isn't working out. The fact is though, this is all moderation can come up with. If we want change, we're going to need to put our heads together, think of a way to untangle these problems ourselves, and then present what we find to the people upstairs. We have to do more than campaign, we have to actively draw up new documents.

Is there any mentor still on right now that would be willing to put together some sort of way for those with ideas to come together and discuss their possibility for being incorporated into the site?

Wasn't that the whole idea of the R/D Summit thingymajig, to revise it?

The one that a mod told us could not be reconvened/restarted unless requested by [violet]? I'm not sure if they'd look kindly on players starting one up...

Giovenith wrote:Guys, can we calm down and tackle one thing at a time?

I'm all for change, but waving our spears in the air and chanting, "Fix it! Fix it! Fix it!" at the mods has already been shown to be fruitless. Fris has pointed out that the moderation team is in fact facing real issues with "fixing it," but our problem is that their solution for those issues isn't working out. The fact is though, this is all moderation can come up with. If we want change, we're going to need to put our heads together, think of a way to untangle these problems ourselves, and then present what we find to the people upstairs. We have to do more than campaign, we have to actively draw up new documents.

Is there any mentor still on right now that would be willing to put together some sort of way for those with ideas to come together and discuss their possibility for being incorporated into the site?

Registug wrote:

Registug wrote:Oh gee, I just took a look at the R/D summit subforum. That looks a whole lot like what I was talking about. Someone reel me in before I go about embarrassing myself like that next time.

Does anyone have a summary of the changes people wanted to implement at the R/D summit? Also if anyone proposed an opt-out system that would work?

Registug wrote:It does sound a bit difficult, doesn't it?

but still, putting some ideas out is better than going "baaaww, why won't the game techs do anything? " and waiting for something to happen.

Throwing around ideas on what we could do is better than nothing, because even if there's a million shitty ideas, there could be one that's the perfect solution.

Perhaps we could make a thread in Technical about it?

been trying that

Giovenith wrote:Guys, can we calm down and tackle one thing at a time?

I'm all for change, but waving our spears in the air and chanting, "Fix it! Fix it! Fix it!" at the mods has already been shown to be fruitless. Fris has pointed out that the moderation team is in fact facing real issues with "fixing it," but our problem is that their solution for those issues isn't working out. The fact is though, this is all moderation can come up with. If we want change, we're going to need to put our heads together, think of a way to untangle these problems ourselves, and then present what we find to the people upstairs. We have to do more than campaign, we have to actively draw up new documents.

Is there any mentor still on right now that would be willing to put together some sort of way for those with ideas to come together and discuss their possibility for being incorporated into the site?

There's some hard-coding issues, and who-get's-to-opt-out, and why, that are at the core of this. No one is trying to be deliberately unpleasant, but there are a lot of ideas floating about hows and whys and relative value.

Giovenith wrote:Guys, can we calm down and tackle one thing at a time?

I'm all for change, but waving our spears in the air and chanting, "Fix it! Fix it! Fix it!" at the mods has already been shown to be fruitless. Fris has pointed out that the moderation team is in fact facing real issues with "fixing it," but our problem is that their solution for those issues isn't working out. The fact is though, this is all moderation can come up with. If we want change, we're going to need to put our heads together, think of a way to untangle these problems ourselves, and then present what we find to the people upstairs. We have to do more than campaign, we have to actively draw up new documents.

Is there any mentor still on right now that would be willing to put together some sort of way for those with ideas to come together and discuss their possibility for being incorporated into the site?

It seems to me that the simplest solution would be moderator oversight. If requested, a mod could take a look at a region, and if it's clearly an RP region the liberation gets removed.

Wisconsin9 wrote:

Giovenith wrote:Guys, can we calm down and tackle one thing at a time?

I'm all for change, but waving our spears in the air and chanting, "Fix it! Fix it! Fix it!" at the mods has already been shown to be fruitless. Fris has pointed out that the moderation team is in fact facing real issues with "fixing it," but our problem is that their solution for those issues isn't working out. The fact is though, this is all moderation can come up with. If we want change, we're going to need to put our heads together, think of a way to untangle these problems ourselves, and then present what we find to the people upstairs. We have to do more than campaign, we have to actively draw up new documents.

Is there any mentor still on right now that would be willing to put together some sort of way for those with ideas to come together and discuss their possibility for being incorporated into the site?

It seems to me that the simplest solution would be moderator oversight. If requested, a mod could take a look at a region, and if it's clearly an RP region the liberation gets removed.

Conceptually I like this idea, but is rather hands-on. Maybe a mod-report oversight request?

I concur, Wis.

@Wisconsin9: I can see issues arising from that, mainly on what qualifies as a roleplaying region. We'd have to lay down some hard-core rules on what qualifies. But even then, to play devil's advocate, I could see regions masquerading as RP regions to get the protection.

Yasuragi wrote:Wasn't that the whole idea of the R/D Summit thingymajig, to revise it?

The one that a mod told us could not be reconvened/restarted unless requested by [violet]? I'm not sure if they'd look kindly on players starting one up...

There was one solution in that summit that I personally thought would have worked just fine, with a few select regions getting the same protection as Classroom regions, and the rule being that you have to RP in order to be in one, and you can't R/D while you are in one.

That still runs into Fris's "who gets the privilege and who doesn't" problems, though.


One thing I personally think could help iron things out would to not necessarily focus all the activity of NS solely on regions themselves. It might be difficult coding, and it would take imagination, but I think we could create different hotspots on NS for different kinds of players depending on their needs if placing it in a region causes too much strife.

Lyras wrote:

Wisconsin9 wrote:It seems to me that the simplest solution would be moderator oversight. If requested, a mod could take a look at a region, and if it's clearly an RP region the liberation gets removed.

Conceptually I like this idea, but is rather hands-on. Maybe a mod-report oversight request?

Presumably that's something different than what I suggested, but I can't quite tell how.

I think the biggest issue here, and that people are losing sight of, is that M&R, along with other raiders, is trying to use the WA to force a region into playing their little ego game. Opting out shouldn't be the issue here, regional rights, particularily rp regions, should be the issue.

Excuse my slippery slope, but the idea that the WA can remove passwords and the like, because a bunch of raiders are bored, kind of makes me nervous.

Cata Larga wrote:

Bone Fort wrote:I'm honestly surprised this thread hasn't gotten any raider supporters or mods yet.

Seriously, when will the mods open their ears and listen? Why the hell do they value Gameplay over Roleplay?

If you ask me, it's because:

• RP board mods are far outnumbered by gameplay and general mods.
• Most of those RP board mods are inactive or apathetic to moderation concerns.
• Several roleplayers who, should they have contributed equivalently in another board, would have been promoted to moderator status, are instead given mentor status and a pat on the back.

By all rights, an RPer like Yohannes or Kylarnatia should have been chosen for a moderator position over Mallorea and Riva, or at least a more responsible R/D player like Unibot. Unfortunately, general and gameplay hegemony over the moderation staff seems to have shot that down.

I'm not sure where to start with this, but let's go through just how wrong this post is.

1. Mods with RP board backgrounds (because seriously mods can moderate any of the forums): Ard, DLN, Arch, Jenrak, Flib, Kryo, Mouse, Trans, Fris. That's 9 there, out of a team, not counting admin, of 22 mods. Of those 22, 8 have, by my reckoning NSG backgrounds. NSG is also a community that has serious problem with gameplay. It's wrong to paint NSG mods as in some kind of partnership with gameplay mods to put gameplay about roleplay. It's wrong to suggest that it's mod decision that gameplay is above roleplay. It's game mechanics. You can't opt-out of game mechanics.

2. Moderators are, partially, chosen on the basis of which area needs them. The WA needed a new mod, so Mousey was selected. Gameplay needed a new mod, so Mall was selected. Both after being nominated. Did anyone nominate Yohannes or Kylarnatia to be mods?

3. Also, Unibot? Seriously, Unibot? I know the guy personally and consider him a friend, but even he would say that he shouldn't be a mod. His record (three deletions) alone makes it impossible, and his tendencies to go off-script would be a problem.

The Kraven Corporation wrote:There shouldn't be a need to change game mechanics, simply put, regions not wanting to participate in R/D should have a tag saying so in the region, then out of respect and honour for the game R/D's should avoid involving that region.

Wooo problem solved!

Sign me up, it shouldn't have gotten this far.

Kraven

And then defenders go around putting that tag on all the regions and the R/D game is gone. That's either a good or a bad thing depending on your perspective, but that's the biggest problem with your suggestion, and why it was dismissed the last time it was suggested.

Cata Larga wrote:

Ainin wrote:Unfortunately, this seems more and more likely. Pushing harder won't do anything useful at this point.

If pushing stops working, we split. We can't just tolerate this. I know I won't.

A split worked really well the last time it happened. The owner of the site that split community is now on just announced he's not renewing hosting due to inactivity.

So good luck with that.

If only the people who don't want to play R/D put the tag up, how is that a threat to the game? If you have to force people to participate, why bother keeping the game alive?

Nierr wrote:

Cata Larga wrote:If pushing stops working, we split. We can't just tolerate this. I know I won't.

A split worked really well the last time it happened. The owner of the site that split community is now on just announced he's not renewing hosting due to inactivity.

So good luck with that.

Because it went on for years and people got too old for RPing...

Bone Fort wrote:If only the people who don't want to play R/D put the tag up, how is that a threat to the game? If you have to force people to participate, why bother keeping the game alive?

Well, I can easily see raiders throwing that tag up on occupied regions to keep libs out.

Wisconsin9 wrote:

Bone Fort wrote:If only the people who don't want to play R/D put the tag up, how is that a threat to the game? If you have to force people to participate, why bother keeping the game alive?

Well, I can easily see raiders throwing that tag up on occupied regions to keep libs out.

And that's where the Mods come in.

The Grey Wolf wrote:I think the biggest issue here, and that people are losing sight of, is that M&R, along with other raiders, is trying to use the WA to force a region into playing their little ego game. Opting out shouldn't be the issue here, regional rights, particularily rp regions, should be the issue.

Excuse my slippery slope, but the idea that the WA can remove passwords and the like, because a bunch of raiders are bored, kind of makes me nervous.

The ability to remove passwords was born out of the idea that regions that get raided and passworded by the raiders should still get a chance to be saved. That's the idea and the intention of the liberation function. It's since been co-opted into a tool that can (although rarely 1 passed resolution ever and that's since been repealed - and it was of a Nazi region) be used to open up a region to be raided.

Bone Fort wrote:

Wisconsin9 wrote:Well, I can easily see raiders throwing that tag up on occupied regions to keep libs out.

And that's where the Mods come in.

I can see that running into a game of, "he said, she said."

Bone Fort wrote:If you have to force people to participate, why bother keeping the game alive?

This is what people should be asking. The answer, though, is "because max barry thinks it's cool".

Bone Fort wrote:

Wisconsin9 wrote:Well, I can easily see raiders throwing that tag up on occupied regions to keep libs out.

And that's where the Mods come in.

And the last time you had mods deciding on r/d stuff, it got some contentious and controversial that the mechanics of the game itself was altered with the introduction of influence.

As it is, if Liberate Haven passed, if raiders raided it, it would take literally years for them to remove all the nations. Years.

Prekonate wrote:

Nierr wrote:A split worked really well the last time it happened. The owner of the site that split community is now on just announced he's not renewing hosting due to inactivity.

So good luck with that.

Because it went on for years and people got too old for RPing...

No such thing.

Nierr wrote:

Bone Fort wrote:
And that's where the Mods come in.

And the last time you had mods deciding on r/d stuff, it got some contentious and controversial that the mechanics of the game itself was altered with the introduction of influence.

As it is, if Liberate Haven passed, if raiders raided it, it would take literally years for them to remove all the nations. Years.

The best course of action would be to abandon region and reboot in that scenario.

I've been on NS since, more or less, the start. I have never joined the UN or the WA. I have no desire to join the WA. I'm here to roleplay. I don't want to play your silly popularity contest. Delegate access will remain turned off in any region I create until such time as the site administration dictates that that feature be removed.

So, is there any intent to force raiders to take part in roleplay? Maybe bonus influence for quality posts?