NationStates

Bezombia wrote:

Yasuragi wrote:So, do we have an update on how the discussions are going?

The lack of a comprehensive and organized response by any of the major groups involved -- the moderators, the mentors, the admins, [violet], Max -- and the responses of many individuals makes me concerned that the higher-ups will simply wait for the SC proposal to be defeated, and then point at that as evidence that the system works, ignoring the sheer amount of distress/emotion roiling the community and the headaches that this has caused everyone. In addition, the fact that this issue has been around for years, and pops up regularly, is indicative that something must change, to avoid more anger, outrage, and headaches overall. The status quo simply does not work, for that reason alone.

So we've seen individuals respond -- vague promises on behalf of the mentors (which I appreciate, and I love them, but their promises are vague), individual moderators responding with conflicting and personal opinions (which only adds to the confusion, especially as Mall shows no sign of remorse or guilt), and silence from the higher-ups. Lack of transparency will only lead to confusion down the road when -- or if -- any changes are announced or implemented, and if the situation is not resolved here and now, that same lack of transparency will only rear its ugly head in the next argument, six months down the line.

They've already done that. Literally none of the mods except Scolo have even mentioned anything about this once it blew up, and Scolo didn't even try to actually resolve the issue.

Scolo literally CAN'T do a thing about it. He and Mall are equal, and he cannot stop the Proposal or, really, do anything. Please do not use him to unleash your anger AGAIN, everyone. Also, a couple of other mods responded, but they also couldn't do anything. Only the higher ups and MANY, although not all, mods aren't responding.

Mall's proposal may be dicky, but it by all means isnt against the rules.

Maybe you should all excercise your voting rights and make the proposal flop, oh wait, that's already happening.


Don't expect the mods to swoop in and save the day on every situation, He's done nothing against the rules.

Jordslag wrote:

Bezombia wrote:
They've already done that. Literally none of the mods except Scolo have even mentioned anything about this once it blew up, and Scolo didn't even try to actually resolve the issue.

Scolo literally CAN'T do a thing about it. He and Mall are equal, and he cannot stop the Proposal or, really, do anything. Please do not use him to unleash your anger AGAIN, everyone. Also, a couple of other mods responded, but they also couldn't do anything. Only the higher ups and MANY, although not all, mods aren't responding.

That is, indeed, my concern. I don't seek to blame the moderation staff at all, nor the mentors, nor any player in question. I simply want to express my alarm at the lack of a comprehensive response -- even a "we're looking at it, and we might make some changes" -- would go a long way.

Hobbesistan wrote:Mall's proposal may be dicky, but it by all means isnt against the rules.

Maybe you should all excercise your voting rights and make the proposal flop, oh wait, that's already happening.


Don't expect the mods to swoop in and save the day on every situation, He's done nothing against the rules.

Oh hey!

Lookit that. I literally posted about this at the top of the page, and bam! someone comes in and proves my point.

I wish to sign.

Yasuragi wrote:

Jordslag wrote:Scolo literally CAN'T do a thing about it. He and Mall are equal, and he cannot stop the Proposal or, really, do anything. Please do not use him to unleash your anger AGAIN, everyone. Also, a couple of other mods responded, but they also couldn't do anything. Only the higher ups and MANY, although not all, mods aren't responding.

That is, indeed, my concern. I don't seek to blame the moderation staff at all, nor the mentors, nor any player in question. I simply want to express my alarm at the lack of a comprehensive response -- even a "we're looking at it, and we might make some changes" -- would go a long way.

Eh, the issue there is that, if they say that, then that gets everyone's hopes up that there might actually be a resolution to all this. Even if there's a "might" in there, that'd still get people optimistic and think that something is going to be done. I'd hate to be Mr. Cynic here, but I don't see anything changing, except maybe behind the scenes.

Yasuragi wrote:

Jordslag wrote:Scolo literally CAN'T do a thing about it. He and Mall are equal, and he cannot stop the Proposal or, really, do anything. Please do not use him to unleash your anger AGAIN, everyone. Also, a couple of other mods responded, but they also couldn't do anything. Only the higher ups and MANY, although not all, mods aren't responding.

That is, indeed, my concern. I don't seek to blame the moderation staff at all, nor the mentors, nor any player in question. I simply want to express my alarm at the lack of a comprehensive response -- even a "we're looking at it, and we might make some changes" -- would go a long way.

Any announcement of this type would reasonably wait into after the proposal is off the floor because it would totally bomb and change the way the people view the proposal if the moderators announce its going to look at the legality of it.

They're keeping hush for a reason.


That or they don't see it as against the rules, and I can't blaim them for it.

The WA, and SC, is a neutral organization; no tool should benefit one side and not the other, including Liberations, why should defenders be free to use it but there needs to be a rule safeguard against it being used for raiding?

I wish to sign.

Northrop-Grumman wrote:

Yasuragi wrote:
That is, indeed, my concern. I don't seek to blame the moderation staff at all, nor the mentors, nor any player in question. I simply want to express my alarm at the lack of a comprehensive response -- even a "we're looking at it, and we might make some changes" -- would go a long way.

Eh, the issue there is that, if they say that, then that gets everyone's hopes up that there might actually be a resolution to all this. Even if there's a "might" in there, that'd still get people optimistic and think that something is going to be done. I'd hate to be Mr. Cynic here, but I don't see anything changing, except maybe behind the scenes.

A valid concern, but some response is necessary -- even that "we're aware of the issue" from [violet] would go a long way towards reassuring people, I think.

Hobbesistan wrote:

Yasuragi wrote:
That is, indeed, my concern. I don't seek to blame the moderation staff at all, nor the mentors, nor any player in question. I simply want to express my alarm at the lack of a comprehensive response -- even a "we're looking at it, and we might make some changes" -- would go a long way.

Any announcement of this type would reasonably wait into after the proposal is off the floor because it would totally bomb and change the way the people view the proposal if the moderators announce its going to look at the legality of it.

They're keeping hush for a reason.

I'm talking about the game, not the proposal. The proposal is legal.

There should be no 'reassuring', if you want Liberation to be prevented from use for raiding, it should be removed entirely.

The WA, and previously the UN, where made to be neutral to both roleplay and gameplay, limiting a tool, in this case liberation, to only 1 side of gameplay and making a rule preventing raiders from using it defeats the entire purpose of the Security Council and the WA.

I'm a (commended) defender, but i'm all for raiders being able to play the game.

Yasuragi wrote:

Northrop-Grumman wrote:Eh, the issue there is that, if they say that, then that gets everyone's hopes up that there might actually be a resolution to all this. Even if there's a "might" in there, that'd still get people optimistic and think that something is going to be done. I'd hate to be Mr. Cynic here, but I don't see anything changing, except maybe behind the scenes.

A valid concern, but some response is necessary -- even that "we're aware of the issue" from [violet] would go a long way towards reassuring people, I think.

IIRC, now people can correct me if I'm wrong, at least some of the mentors and some of the mods very early on has said that the higher ups are aware of the issue. I don't expect [violet] to say anything just yet, because her presence would send everyone into a frenzy trying to throw all their arguments and ideas at her.

I wish to sign

Furthermore, if you want to avoid emotional roiling/distress, the frickin' mentors of all people shouldn't post this in International Incidents, the fearmongering is strong.

Hobbesistan wrote:Furthermore, if you want to avoid emotional roiling/distress, the frickin' mentors of all people shouldn't post this in International Incidents, the fearmongering is strong.

The letter is meant to make RPers aware of the ongoing situation. As International Incidents is an extremely popular and read sub-forum, it would make sense that the mentors, who mostly are II RP mentors, would post this thread in International Incidents.

Tiami wrote:

Hobbesistan wrote:Furthermore, if you want to avoid emotional roiling/distress, the frickin' mentors of all people shouldn't post this in International Incidents, the fearmongering is strong.

The letter is meant to make RPers aware of the ongoing situation. As International Incidents is an extremely popular and read sub-forum, it would make sense that the mentors, who mostly are II RP mentors, would post this thread in International Incidents.

There are also complementary threads in the Moderation and SC forums. Cross-posting and linking from one thread to another are common, too.

Tiami wrote:

Hobbesistan wrote:Furthermore, if you want to avoid emotional roiling/distress, the frickin' mentors of all people shouldn't post this in International Incidents, the fearmongering is strong.

The letter is meant to make RPers aware of the ongoing situation. As International Incidents is an extremely popular and read sub-forum, it would make sense that the mentors, who mostly are II RP mentors, would post this thread in International Incidents.

Peeking out of the cave that is II once in a while can be healthy, y'know

Yasuragi wrote:So, do we have an update on how the discussions are going?

The lack of a comprehensive and organized response by any of the major groups involved -- the moderators, the mentors, the admins, [violet], Max -- and the responses of many individuals makes me concerned that the higher-ups will simply wait for the SC proposal to be defeated, and then point at that as evidence that the system works, ignoring the sheer amount of distress/emotion roiling the community and the headaches that this has caused everyone. In addition, the fact that this issue has been around for years, and pops up regularly, is indicative that something must change, to avoid more anger, outrage, and headaches overall. The status quo simply does not work, for that reason alone.

So we've seen individuals respond -- vague promises on behalf of the mentors (which I appreciate, and I love them, but their promises are vague), individual moderators responding with conflicting and personal opinions (which only adds to the confusion, especially as Mall shows no sign of remorse or guilt), and silence from the higher-ups. Lack of transparency will only lead to confusion down the road when -- or if -- any changes are announced or implemented, and if the situation is not resolved here and now, that same lack of transparency will only rear its ugly head in the next argument, six months down the line.

Well, I can really only speak as a Mentor here, but we're pretty unanimous in our opposition to this so far.

Here's the problem though - Mentors have no real power. We don't even have a direct line to Max. Now, I'm not saying this should change (as that would be a egoistic power grab on my part and I'm cool with the level of responsibility I've got here), but there's not much we can do in our SUPAR SEKRIT BUNKER besides express our frustration in slightly less-held-back-by-rules-of-common-decorum manners, as well as get a bit more candid responses from the Mods.

That said - here's what we know. Keep in mind we're not really under any restrictions as to what we can tell you guys - if we know it, you'll know it. If this situation changes, you'll probably also find that out.

-The Mods' primary purpose is to maintain order, not incite or facilitate change on the forums. We can argue all we want that one of their number has gone against this code, but nothing will come of it. There will be no public action taken against Mall. We can only guess as to what was said behind closed doors, but what Mall did (and is continuing to push) is 100% within the boundaries the written Mod rules.

-Any change to the current status quo regarding the separation of R/D gameplay and the Roleplay community has to be undertaken at the top level. This means that, no matter if we get support from the Mods, they aren't the ones who can ultimately help us. This needs to be a decision made by Max and the site developers.

-There are some things in the works, primarily the idea of a Regional Officer - a sort of "mini-founder" who would be able to do most of what a founder can do. This has been in the works since before the current flareup, and at the moment it's still being worked on. From what we understand, the two main holdups are coding and gameplay balance issues. But it is being worked on.

-Max likes Raiding/Defending, and doesn't want to see it go away. THIS MEANS RAIDING WILL NOT GO AWAY NO MATTER HOW MUCH WE WANT IT TO SO WE CAN STOP ENTERTAINING NOTIONS OF IT RIGHT NOW.

-Max is aware of everything, and has been kept up to date as things have unfolded.

-Like I said, Max is the one and only real person who can change anything. We have allies in the Moderation Team, but they have not and will not present a unified response because that's not their job. They are the police, not Congress. You want to talk to people who can change things, you go to the man directly.

-The Mentors, for the time being, are doing what we can. We are in active discussion with the Mods, mostly at this point brainstorming ideas for fixes so that this doesn't happen again. Nothing concrete has come up, and ideas are so fluid at this point that posting them would be a waste of time. When we have something solid, you'll be the first to know. Also, every idea that is thought to have merit is being sent to the man upstairs. There are a couple of options (in addition to ROs) being considered now.

Personally, this mall should resign stuff is stupid, it's like me asking every Mentor here who roleplays a 'evil' nation to resign. Mall is just playing the game, nothing less, nothing more. His actions are entirely legal and asking him to resign over them is a stupid and childish act, frankly.

Hobbesistan wrote:Personally, this mall should resign stuff is stupid, it's like me asking every Mentor here who roleplays a 'evil' nation to resign. Mall is just playing the game, nothing less, nothing more. His actions are entirely legal and asking him to resign over them is a stupid and childish act, frankly.

It's like you're trying to be a contrarian.

Hobbesistan wrote:

Tiami wrote:The letter is meant to make RPers aware of the ongoing situation. As International Incidents is an extremely popular and read sub-forum, it would make sense that the mentors, who mostly are II RP mentors, would post this thread in International Incidents.

Peeking out of the cave that is II once in a while can be healthy, y'know

We've been active on Moderation thus far, but it was decided amongst many of the Mentors that the Roleplay community as a whole needed to be given an update as to what the situation is and a signpost pointing where to go to do something about it. Given that a great number of Roleplayers usually don't look outside these boards (for the night is dark and full of terrors), we decided II was the logical place to do it.

Bezombia wrote:

Hobbesistan wrote:Personally, this mall should resign stuff is stupid, it's like me asking every Mentor here who roleplays a 'evil' nation to resign. Mall is just playing the game, nothing less, nothing more. His actions are entirely legal and asking him to resign over them is a stupid and childish act, frankly.

It's like you're trying to be a contrarian.

Roleplays popular belief, I can flood this thread with GPers who will turn this into a flamewar, but I don't think anyone wants that.

I roleplay, I gameplay, I do both, but I don't see why roleplay should have priority over gameplay or vice versa.

Hobbesistan wrote:

Bezombia wrote:
It's like you're trying to be a contrarian.

Roleplays popular belief, I can flood this thread with GPers who will turn this into a flamewar, but I don't think anyone wants that.

You called?

Hobbesistan wrote:

Bezombia wrote:
It's like you're trying to be a contrarian.

Roleplays popular belief, I can flood this thread with GPers who will turn this into a flamewar, but I don't think anyone wants that.

I roleplay, I gameplay, I do both, but I don't see why roleplay should have priority over gameplay or vice versa.

We're not asking for that. Stating that is inevitably going to draw sparks.

Hobbesistan wrote:

Bezombia wrote:
It's like you're trying to be a contrarian.

Roleplays popular belief, I can flood this thread with GPers who will turn this into a flamewar, but I don't think anyone wants that.

I roleplay, I gameplay, I do both, but I don't see why roleplay should have priority over gameplay or vice versa.

You do understand GP, as it is now, has priority over RP right?

Tiltjuice wrote:

Hobbesistan wrote:
Roleplays popular belief, I can flood this thread with GPers who will turn this into a flamewar, but I don't think anyone wants that.

I roleplay, I gameplay, I do both, but I don't see why roleplay should have priority over gameplay or vice versa.

We're not asking for that. Stating that is inevitably going to draw sparks.

Well the overwhelming concencus here is raiding is ebil and everyone who dares side with mall for playing the game is ebil, right?

I hold by my position that asking him to resign is stupid and childish.-

New Babylonia wrote:

Hobbesistan wrote:
Roleplays popular belief, I can flood this thread with GPers who will turn this into a flamewar, but I don't think anyone wants that.

I roleplay, I gameplay, I do both, but I don't see why roleplay should have priority over gameplay or vice versa.

You do understand GP, as it is now, has priority over RP right?

GP has priority over the gameplay itself, RP has priority over the forum(s).