CAPINTERN [Capitalist International] Alliance

[Czarvania]

Nation name:The Slavic Federation Of Czarvania
Views on Capitalism:The only viable system of economics
Nation population:314,000,000
WA Government Classification:Federation/ (Father Knows Best State)
Economic level (WA):Frightening
National political party in power:Sovereign Czarvania
Current conflicts:The Astarican Civil War, providing humanitarian aid.
Donation to CMFOU:1B USD per year
Level of membership:Member
Additional nations to be submitted under the IPA:N/A

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

OOC: I am a bit confused about what has happened in my absence.

[OOC: Quite understandable. Aravea sent me this telegram, which I think means that Aravea can't possibly have sent any message (e.g. that one) because Ausitoria doesn't exist to Aravea, which means the recent IC posts on the subject should be retconned.]

[New Aeyariss]

OOC: I am a bit confused about what has happened in my absence.

[OOC: Quite understandable. Aravea sent me this telegram, which means that Aravea can't possibly have sent any message (e.g. that one) because Ausitoria doesn't exist to Aravea, which means the recent IC posts on the subject should be retconned.]

OOC: If you read what I wrote, he recognizes your nation, but does not recognize your government. Kinda like Somaliland also has government, but most nations recognize it as part of Somalia.

For me your government is classified as terrorist organisation, similar to Islamic State.

[Allanea]

My nation is going to withdraw so my puppet, who actually roleplays, can join, is that okay?

Sure although I don't mind you having more than 1 nation in CAPINTERN (it's explicitly permitted in the rules).

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

[OOC: Quite understandable. Aravea sent me this telegram, which means that Aravea can't possibly have sent any message (e.g. that one) because Ausitoria doesn't exist to Aravea, which means the recent IC posts on the subject should be retconned.]

OOC: If you read what I wrote, he recognizes your nation, but does not recognize your government.

OOC: I did, but perhaps we should ask Aravea to clarify?

[New Aeyariss]

OOC: If you read what I wrote, he recognizes your nation, but does not recognize your government.

OOC: I did, but perhaps we should ask Aravea to clarify?

OOC: I am telling what he told me on SACTO chat. I am getting him here now.

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

OOC: I did, but perhaps we should ask Aravea to clarify?

OOC: I am getting him here now.

OOC: Great minds think alike. It would be helpful to clear up the question so we know whether we might be in for a libel war, and whether I'm still in CAPINTERN or not.

[Aravea]

OOC: i have to make this quick(class soon) but at the current moment I do not recognize the government at the current time. Does that mean I will not recognize him some point? No it does not. In addition we have the current matter of the little canon reorganization following the events of the past week. As for the little libel war you speak of I doubt it will happen at this point considering that I have withdrawn from the alliance altogether.

[Allanea]

OOC: Please clarify:

1. Do you 'not recognize the government' in the sense that you RP as if Ausitoria does not physically Exist, or do you not recognize the government in the sense that your government, IC, refuses to legally recognize Ausitoria?

2. If the former, does it mean that you also RP as if Ausitoria has not existed in the past? (i.e. retconning its existence)?

[Aravea]

OOC: Please clarify:

1. Do you 'not recognize the government' in the sense that you RP as if Ausitoria does not physically Exist, or do you not recognize the government in the sense that your government, IC, refuses to legally recognize Ausitoria?

2. If the former, does it mean that you also RP as if Ausitoria has not existed in the past? (i.e. retconning its existence)?

1. My current government treats Ausitoria as if it does not exist.

2.For the most part I have rped as if Ausitoria has not existed given my limited contact with him outside of ooc matters.

[Allanea]

So what you're suggesting is that your government does not interact with Ausitoria, but Ausitoria still exists, so we do not have to retcon the RP?

[Aravea]

So what you're suggesting is that your government does not interact with Ausitoria, but Ausitoria still exists, so we do not have to retcon the RP?

Allanea let me make this crystal clear that is what I am suggesting. However, i would also like to point out that I really do not care to do such an rp at the current moment in time.

[Allanea]

Thank you. Not having to retcon 3 pages of RP makes me a happy Allanea.

[Aravea]

Thank you. Not having to retcon 3 pages of RP makes me a happy Allanea.

That's fine but as said I really wish no further part in dealing with Ausitoria over these matters.

[Allanea]

Thank you. Not having to retcon 3 pages of RP makes me a happy Allanea.

That's fine but as said I really wish no further part in dealing with Ausitoria over these matters.

I think Ausitoria should respect this desire, really.

If he chooses to have an RP where he confiscates assets in a nation over making these statements, etc., he can do it with us without your involvement.

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

That's fine but as said I really wish no further part in dealing with Ausitoria over these matters.

I think Ausitoria should respect this desire, really.

If he chooses to have an RP where he confiscates assets in a nation over making these statements, etc., he can do it with us without your involvement.

Certainly not. If Aravea is going to hide behind an OOC wall of continuity controls, I shall retcon the last 3 pages.

[Aravea]

I think Ausitoria should respect this desire, really.

If he chooses to have an RP where he confiscates assets in a nation over making these statements, etc., he can do it with us without your involvement.

Certainly not. If Aravea is going to hide behind an OOC wall of continuity controls, I shall retcon the last 3 pages.

Ausitoria as I have repeatedly stated do as you want because I really do not care what you do with regards to your canon. Now is there anything else or may I take my leave?

[Allanea]

I think Ausitoria should respect this desire, really.

If he chooses to have an RP where he confiscates assets in a nation over making these statements, etc., he can do it with us without your involvement.

Certainly not. If Aravea is going to hide behind an OOC wall of continuity controls, I shall retcon the last 3 pages.

Are you attempting to use selective retconning to get back into CAPINTERN?

[Nachmere]

Ooc: Ausitoria you are welcome to send you police to die in nachmere if you want

[Allanea]

OOC: YES! PLEASE!

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

Certainly not. If Aravea is going to hide behind an OOC wall of continuity controls, I shall retcon.

Are you attempting to use selective retconning to get back into CAPINTERN?

Or to have never been in it at all.

My point, as I should have thought abundantly clear, is that if an RPer is going to selectively choose when they can RP with a second RPer, surely the second RPer can choose to say that the first RPer can't do that. RPing requires that both sides agree to RP, and if one side can't agree to RP to the extent that the other considers realistic, then the RP becomes impossible and OOCly things can quickly become rather messy.

Now, I have been acting on the assumption that CAPINTERN accounts for about 10% of Ausitorian trade, which is obviously something that might be slightly disrupted by the events in this RP, and if I was going to RP it and keep it in-cannon, the realistic result is that Ausitoria would pursue damages.

But, if Aravea doesn't want to RP all the ensuing disruption to Aravea (fair enough), obviously I cannot be required to RP the disruption to Ausitoria's trade, and there is some cannon divorce.

Now, since Ausitoria won't recognize Aravea to be in-cannon if Aravea isn't in-cannon enough to RP the pursuit of damages (if any - I presume Aravea can change the Primarch's post since we haven't done much RPing since then, and if there aren't damages it doesn't matter whether Ausitoria and Aravea can RP them), this means that if Aravea sticks by the Pimarch's post leading to Ausitoria's expulsion and simultaneously refuses to RP the disruption (again, fair enough) then I can't recognize Aravea's recent continuity. If I can't recognize Aravea's continuity whereas CAPINTERN continues to do so, this puts us in the peculiar position whereby according to CAPINTERN cannon Ausitoria isn't in CAPINTERN but according Ausitoria's cannon Ausitoria is in CAPINTERN, which is obviously incompatible (and a hopeless mess). Therefore, to return some semblance of sanity to NS continuity, I could retcon that Ausitoria has never been a member in CAPINTERN, and therefore there would be no effect on trade to RP about, and I would have been trading with several CAPINTERN nations via bilateral treaties instead, and I can butterfly away a few percent of Ausitorian trade.

So, decision time! (There's really no hurry - take a whole month if you like).

Aravea: Since this is all turning into a dreadful mess, are you completely sure that you want to stick with something along the lines of your Primarch's post, or that you won't RP the pursuit of damages? I don't mind, it's your decision.

If no to either, excellent, we only need to retcon a few posts. If yes to both:

CAPINTERN: If Aravea does stick with the Pimarch's post or won't RP the pursuit of damages, with me subsequently rejecting the effects of Aravea's recent cannon and the Primarch's message, would you prefer to consider that message to be in-cannon or not? Again, I don't mind, it's your decision.

If the former, I shall retcon Ausitoria's membership in CAPINTERN to avoid RPing something I can't RP properly, if the latter, we only need to retcon a few posts, and I am sure Allanea can find some other reason to expel Ausitoria later if it is really so desirable...

[Allanea]

But, if Aravea doesn't want to RP all the ensuing disruption to Aravea (fair enough), obviously I cannot be required to RP the disruption to Ausitoria's trade, and there is some cannon divorce.

THere is no meaningful way for Ausitoria to pursue damages against Aravea.

You can either:

1. Sue Aravea in a court of law that both countries recognize, for libel.

2. Attempt to carry out the action that you described in your post, i.e. have cops from your nation attempt to confiscate Aravean assets in Aravea. This is a highly unrealistic course of action (the only comparable thing is French Occupation of the Ruhr). Aravea can simply say "Ausitorians are no longer welcome across Aravean borders", and any opportunity you had to confiscate anything in Aravea vanishes instantly. Even if Ausitorian cops actually arrived in Aravea and attempted to confiscate properties there, they would be likely simply... arrested by Aravean police! (As they possess no lawful authority in Aravea.

What you are proposing here is war - armed men from your nation invading Aravea, against the will of the Araveans, to seize Aravean goods, because the Aravean government made statements you claim are libelous. To compound this decision, you are choosing not to have these armed men be soldiers - which would be what France did in the Ruhr, and frankly, soldiers are better at invasions than police - but have them be police.

Now Aravea has come and said - "I don't want to RP this right now, maybe later", and as a result you are choosing to retcon your interactions with me and several dozen other CAPINTERN members. I think this is not the best way to handle this.

I am offering several comments.

1. There is no reason to believe that your trade would have been damaged at all. The fact that you are not any more a member of a 'free trade treaty' does not mean that constituent states would immediately have enacted tariffs against your nation. Certainly Allanea would not do this quite yet.

2. Even if you insist to RP that your trade would have been damaged by this action - I am unsure why - it does not mean you need to pursue damages against Aravea. Pursuing damages against Nihondai, or myself, is also possible, and I would welcome such an RP.

3. Furthermore, even if we insist on the idea of pursuing damages against Aravea, NS RP is fluid-time. Aravea has said he doesn't want to RP now, and that he might be open to RP in the future. You can easily pursue damages in a few months RL time.

4. Even if you choose to alter your national canon - to avoid taking a miniscule damage to trade which there is no reason to believe your nation will take at all - you cannot force me to alter mine.

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

The fact that you are not any more a member of a 'free trade treaty' does not mean that constituent states would immediately have enacted tariffs against your nation. Certainly Allanea would not do this quite yet.

As you yourself demonstrate (emphasis mine), it is the loss of the guarantee. It would spook Ausitorian stock markets.

Aravea has said he doesn't want to RP now, and that he might be open to RP in the future.

That is why I am asking, although I can't really be expected to leave the question open for more than a month.

Even if you choose to alter your national canon [...] you cannot force me to alter mine.

I have no intention of doing so. You RP whatever you like, and so will I. I merely desire to know what you will RP so I know how to adjust mine.

[Allanea]

So the potential that X nations might make a political decision in the future that they have not shown any desire to make (no such thing was RPed by anyone), causes your markets to shrink by up to 3 trillion?

Note: Allanea has tariffs of two forms:

a. reciprocal tariffs
b. tariffs on nations we have crap relations with, typically totalitarian shitholes.

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

So the potential that X nations might make a political decision in the future that they have not shown any desire to make (no such thing was RPed by anyone), causes your markets to shrink by up to 3 trillion?

There's also bound to be a minor cost to the effectiveness of Ausitorian defence networks, which might be judged to be equivalent to anything up to 0.1% of GDP over a decade (c. $3 trillion). Most of the uncertainty is in that part.

For trade, the cost of having to get insurance on the total value of the trade (c. 7/8 years multiplied by annual trade, i.e. c. $100 trillion) allowing for some redirection through other trading networks might be c. $1 trillion. Another way to look at the cost of disruption would be if there was some sudden disruption to a tenth of that trade (which is probable), which would have immediate knock on effects through supply chains, in the style of RL events, and might easily account for the equivalent of an unscheduled day's holiday in Ausitoria (again, c. $1 trillion).