NationStates

Ardoki wrote:

Ganos Lao wrote:
Because we would do everything with a few strokes of the pen, making your coalition irrelevant. Well, for a time, anyway. My idea was that we would offer Ardoki terms, namely that if he does not do what is requested of him, the Hobbesian Commonwealth would abandon him to his fate of being swept aside by the Grand Coalition. Don't get me wrong (assuming that talk of retconning on the blockade OOC thread doesn't imply the whole thing's over now), we're still on your side. We want to deal with Ardoki just as much as you guys, but I won't toss up a chance to spread my ideology and flesh it out.

If Ardoki is truly serious about becoming Hobbesian, I'll help him. However, he won't get away with his past. He'll still have to repent of his follies and do what is asked of him by everyone involved.

Can this be clarified further, please?

Basically, allow the tribunal to administer justice to Moriarty and his cronies. Punish the Ardokians who did wrong, protect those who did not.

Like I said, Quinn isn't the sort to endorse a man like Moriarty. It'd go against everything Ganosia was built upon since the 2nd Revolution.

New Aeyariss wrote:

Our government believes Resolution 21 is only a single step short of annexation. They view Ardokian independence as offering a far better future than subjugation, regardless of the IFC's actual intentions. Most of our government was more supportive of the IFC than the people were originally; they only drifted away from the IFC because of the vocal hostility against Ardoki and out of fear of losing the support of the public. Our government feels betrayed by the IFC, so do our people.

As I said earlier, I am pretty sure that multiple IFC members were all for occupation since the beginning, and had intent of carrying it regardless.

It wasn't a majority at the time.

It is now that Ausitoria is also inclined in favour of an invasion of Ardoki. Anything Ausitoria agrees with is a majority position. (That's what Ausitoria means when they say that Ausitoria's interests and the IFC's interests and the International Community's interests are the same bloody thing - they're always in a majority when there's a proper balance of power).

Ardoki wrote:[...]

President proposes - 5 minutes.
Assembly writes - 5 minutes.
President approves - 1 minute.
Referendum announced - 1 minute.
Campaign begins - up to 2 days, with entire establishment reassuring people that they can vote in favour.
Votes counted - 6 hours.
Result announced - 2 minutes.
Grand Legislative Assembly approves - 5 minutes.
President signs - 1 minute.

Time required to amend constitution: 2 days, 6 hours, 20 minutes.

If process fails, wait 6 hours for stock market to crash, then repeat again from beginning. Eventually people will approve.

Anyway, since Ardoki didn't like it, now they can try to negotiate with someone else, but Ausitoria isn't going to help this time.

It is now that Ausitoria is also inclined in favour of an invasion of Ardoki. Anything Ausitoria agrees with is a majority position. (That's what Ausitoria means when they say that Ausitoria's interests and the IFC's interests and the International Community's interests are the same bloody thing - they're always in a majority when there's a proper balance of power).

So Ausitoria is so weak that it can not even have it's own foreign policy? No wonder that it gets dominated by Nihon over and over again...

Because it is not like there was no Kojiro's mind and hand in breakdown of diplomatic attempts to reform Ardoki...

Libraria and Ausitoria wrote:Anyway, since Ardoki didn't like it, now they can try to negotiate with someone else, but Ausitoria isn't going to help this time.

They can negotiate with us. All will be well as long as they:

Libraria and Ausitoria wrote:

New Aeyariss wrote:
As I said earlier, I am pretty sure that multiple IFC members were all for occupation since the beginning, and had intent of carrying it regardless.

It wasn't a majority at the time.

It is now that Ausitoria is also inclined in favour of an invasion of Ardoki. Anything Ausitoria agrees with is a majority position. (That's what Ausitoria means when they say that Ausitoria's interests and the IFC's interests and the International Community's interests are the same bloody thing - they're always in a majority when there's a proper balance of power).

Ardoki wrote:[...]

President proposes - 5 minutes.
Assembly writes - 5 minutes.
President approves - 1 minute.
Referendum announced - 1 minute.
Campaign begins - up to 2 days, with entire establishment reassuring people that they can vote in favour.
Votes counted - 6 hours.
Result announced - 2 minutes.
Grand Legislative Assembly approves - 5 minutes.
President signs - 1 minute.

Time required to amend constitution: 2 days, 6 hours, 20 minutes.

If process fails, wait 6 hours for stock market to crash, then repeat again from beginning. Eventually people will approve.

Anyway, since Ardoki didn't like it, now they can try to negotiate with someone else, but Ausitoria isn't going to help this time.

Well, in Ardoki, we spend a bit longer than five minutes when drafting legislation (let alone rewriting an entire constitution); also, our legislature is allowed to discuss and debate legislation and constitutional changes.
Despite what you seem to be suggesting, the President isn't going to rewriting the entire constitution and throw out a couple questions off the top of his head and then text it to the Speaker all within five minutes; a lot more thought, time, and effort actually goes into this stuff in real life.

The vast majority of our population would never accept what you are demanding, trying to force it down their throats is only going to make them more hostile. I've already told you this, several times, no amount of saying otherwise is going to change they way Ardokians would vote on this matter.

Plus, our stock market isn't going to crash. Our economy has never been dependent on the IFC, and neither investor nor consumer confidence will be shaken with what little repercussions will occur.

Can I still kidnap moriarty?

Gauliscia wrote:Can I still kidnap moriarty?

He'll apologise for his mistakes, and seek forgiveness.

The vast majority of our population would never accept what you are demanding, trying to force it down their throats is only going to make them more hostile. I've already told you this, several times, no amount of saying otherwise is going to change they way Ardokians would vote on this matter.

And this is why SACTO way - aka drop da bomb - is proving superior once again. Kojiro is one who realizes that only one way you can force someone who does not want something you want to accept it is at gunpoint (in this case - end socialism in Ardoki). This is why Nihon succeeded, and Ausitoria failed and made itself into international laughingstock.

Thus, why Kojiro plans to send 10 000 free copies of "Starship Troopers" by Robert Henlein to be distributed freely among IFC officials.

New Aeyariss wrote:

The vast majority of our population would never accept what you are demanding, trying to force it down their throats is only going to make them more hostile. I've already told you this, several times, no amount of saying otherwise is going to change they way Ardokians would vote on this matter.

And this is why SACTO way - aka drop da bomb - is proving superior once again. Kojiro is one who realizes that only one way you can force someone who does not want something you want to accept it is at gunpoint (in this case - end socialism in Ardoki).

Thus, why he plans to send 10 000 free copies of "Starship Troopers" by Robert Henlein to be distributed freely among IFC officials.

Starship Trooper is apparently Holocaust apologia.

New Aeyariss wrote:

The vast majority of our population would never accept what you are demanding, trying to force it down their throats is only going to make them more hostile. I've already told you this, several times, no amount of saying otherwise is going to change they way Ardokians would vote on this matter.

And this is why SACTO way - aka drop da bomb - is proving superior once again. Kojiro is one who realizes that only one way you can force someone who does not want something you want to accept it is at gunpoint (in this case - end socialism in Ardoki). This is why Nihon succeeded, and Ausitoria failed and made itself into international laughingstock.

Thus, why Kojiro plans to send 10 000 free copies of "Starship Troopers" by Robert Henlein to be distributed freely among IFC officials.

Errr... Starship troopers?

Ardoki wrote:

Gauliscia wrote:Can I still kidnap moriarty?

He'll apologise for his mistakes, and seek forgiveness.

But can I? We don't care what he does, but of can capture him, people are gonna pay a shitton to get him.

Starship Trooper is apparently Holocaust apologia.

It isn't but that is not the point here.

This book is mandatory reading on all Imperial Nihonese Army military academies, and one of favorite ones of Maki Kojiro. It simply portrays failure of Ausitorian way (diplomacy, peace, cooperation) against Nihonese way (enforcement, subjugation of evil). Nihonese tend to view Ardokians as "bugs" from the book - after all, Ardokians are equally collectivist with their state working as sort of "hive".

It simply shows the truth that no matter how you may not like violence - violence likes you, and if you don''t find a way to be superior at it, you will get eaten.

New Aeyariss wrote:

Starship Trooper is apparently Holocaust apologia.

It isn't but that is not the point here.

This book is mandatory reading on all Imperial Nihonese Army military academies, and one of favorite ones of Maki Kojiro. It simply portrays failure of Ausitorian way (diplomacy, peace, cooperation) against Nihonese way (enforcement, subjugation of evil). Nihonese tend to view Ardokians as "bugs" from the book - after all, Ardokians are equally collectivist with their state working as sort of "hive".

It simply shows the truth that no matter how you may not like violence - violence likes you, and if you don''t find a way to be superior at it, you will get eaten.

That's exactly my point! The demonisation and genocide of the insectoid species is exactly the same as the Holocaust, the human society is even fascist (with the uniforms and ultra-militarism). In the opinion of some critics, the novel was a work of nazi apologia.

Gauliscia wrote:

Ardoki wrote:He'll apologise for his mistakes, and seek forgiveness.

But can I? We don't care what he does, but of can capture him, people are gonna pay a shitton to get him.

But can you get past Elder Dance Crew? It quickly evolved from its humble beginnings as a dance group, to a massive paramilitary organisation.

Ardoki wrote:

Gauliscia wrote:But can I? We don't care what he does, but of can capture him, people are gonna pay a shitton to get him.

But can you get past Elder Dance Crew? It quickly evolved from its humble beginnings as a dance group, to a massive paramilitary organisation.

044 Commando will destroy your prancing fossils. Or you know, just lower the room temperature

About the starship troopers thing, these kinds of coversations should be discouraged OOCilly as it tends to make users fall into the Stanford prison syndrome. It will make you support the morality of the nation you are roleplaying no matter how stupid they might seem.... What more if you move on to defend the morality of the actions of your nation, which reflects your RL OOC views. What am i saying in short? Display your feelings by rapid bombardment and invasion.

About the starship troopers thing, these kinds of coversations should be discouraged OOCilly as it tends to make users fall into the Stanford prison syndrome. It will make you support the morality of the nation you are roleplaying no matter how stupid they might seem.... What more if you move on to defend the morality of the actions of your nation, which reflects your RL OOC views. What am i saying in short? Display your feelings by rapid bombardment and invasion.

I am not defending anything. I am purely portraying views of Nihonese leadership on this one - which are NOT my views. Have you noticed that I am using "Kojiro" not "me"?

And Imperial Nihonese Navy is leaving the port now. Cruise missiles will fall on Ardoki very soon.

The Bugs in Starship Troopers are actually a commentary on the ideology of the Japanese soldier, during the Second World War. It speaks primarily to the ruthless devotion to cause and Emperor that was witnessed by Robert Heinlein's friends and family during the Pacific War. Additionally, the Mobile Infantry are an analogue for the US Marines. The book is almost entirely about the Pacific War, it has nothing to do with the holocaust. Additionally, the society that he wrote of in the form of the Terran Federation is a commentary on American society in the 1940s.

The uniforms depicted in the film have little base in the book and were simply an artistic choice by the director.

Organized States wrote:The Bugs in Starship Troopers are actually a commentary on the ideology of the Japanese soldier, during the Second World War. It speaks primarily to the ruthless devotion to cause and Emperor that was witnessed by Robert Heinlein's friends and family during the Pacific War. Additionally, the Mobile Infantry are an analogue for the US Marines. The book is almost entirely about the Pacific War, it has nothing to do with the holocaust. Additionally, the society that he wrote of in the form of the Terran Federation is a commentary on American society in the 1940s.

The uniforms depicted in the film have little base in the book and were simply an artistic choice by the director.

It was written as reaction to protests against nuclear testing, which is sort of the same problem I am trying to move in my IC posts... That peace fails. Needless to say, Kojiro is coming to seep socialism and his dream is more than just toppling Moriarty - his dream is deconstruction of socialism in Ardoki...

We talking about Starship Troopers?

First of all, the book and the movie are two separate beasts. The movie is the director's interpretation, turning it into an anti-war film by portraying humans as fascist. The book, on the other hand, is multinational (the protagonist is from the Philippines and he joins units with both British and American heritage), the government is meritocratic, and the war is "just business" - control over a part of space by one of three ("Skinnies", "Bugs", and humans) alien races leads to natural conflict.

The bugs in the book, as OS said, are based off of Imperial Japanese soldiers and post-war Chinese Communists in the Korean War. They have culture, civilization, technology, etc. but have very different ideas and morals compared to the humans or even the Skinnies.

To accuse the book of promoting fascism and racism is repetitive and unoriginal; these complaints have been brought forth, addressed, and repeated ad nauseam. I don't think its even worth countering at this point.

New Aeyariss wrote:

About the starship troopers thing, these kinds of coversations should be discouraged OOCilly as it tends to make users fall into the Stanford prison syndrome. It will make you support the morality of the nation you are roleplaying no matter how stupid they might seem.... What more if you move on to defend the morality of the actions of your nation, which reflects your RL OOC views. What am i saying in short? Display your feelings by rapid bombardment and invasion.

I am not defending anything. I am purely portraying views of Nihonese leadership on this one - which are NOT my views. Have you noticed that I am using "Kojiro" not "me"?

And Imperial Nihonese Navy is leaving the port now. Cruise missiles will fall on Ardoki very soon.

Am not pointing fingers. But there is a danger though, you know how some minds work....

I will also participate in said blockade, the lack of justice is unacceptable for Hatay.

Libraria and Ausitoria wrote:If process fails, wait 6 hours for stock market to crash, then repeat again from beginning. Eventually people will approve.

Actually, to be fair to Ardoki, I believe he has mentioned that Ardoki is extremely self-sufficient, and more importantly has not had serious relations with the IFC or Ausitoria for that matter to become even remotely affected by a loss of trade from that bloc.

Now once we start sinking ships as they cross that wide mass of ocean in predictable open sea lanes, then you might be able to see some effect...

---

Also when I brought up Heinlein earlier, it was to show the general Inyurstan position in regards to negotiating with Ardoki (the nation) - You can't.
You can't negotiate with something that ultimately amounts to a hivemind and would have no qualms wiping your entire race from existence. In this sense, the Ardokians are basically bugs, you can't reason, ration or talk it out with them, the only way to solve an issue will come from sheer force. The fact that shooting cruise missiles stopped the persecution of "SACTO supporters" confirms this belief.

While Inyursta doesn't have anywhere near the de-jure anti-LGBTQ legislation on the books that Gran Chile had; Inyursta still has strong Catholic/Christian family and social values and somewhat similar Latino cultural views. The fact that Ardoki was neither hesitant nor repentant of their genocide shows Inyurstans that Ardoki wouldn't think twice about doing the same to, as far as Inyurstans are concerned they might as well be next on the chopping bloc.

How do expect to reason with that?

Gauliscia's Mission

Cause turmoil in Ardoki through unconventional means via elements of 044 Commando, Green Berets. Sink IFC vessels for the jokes.

Just for clarification I'm not against cooperation or negotiation OOC'ly - quite the opposite.

However IC'ly unless Ardoki does a full 180^o turnabout and accepts the Inyurstan ultimatum don't expect any more attempts to negotiate after diplomacy has, predictably, broken down...