Maroon Revolution [DIPLOMATIC|MT+|SEMI-OPEN|OOC]

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

Let's solve this Moriarty and WorldVision question first before we get too drawn into a repetitious conversation about which nations/organizations acted more or less reasonably!

[Ardoki]

When I was invited to apply for IFC membership, I was under the assumption that what had previously been discussed (IFC advisers and observers/monitors to oversee the process of reform, and possibly a small peacekeeping force in Aanglandia) were the requirements for Ardokian membership in the IFC. I can receiving assurances, which I still believe were made with honesty.

However, some member-states in the IFC made ridiculous demands which my government could never accept (OOCly, I wasn't too thrilled with the surprise new conditions, but was nonetheless willing to negotiate). I don't blame anyone, least of all L&A, who was forced to go along with the unreasonable demands.

In the end, the IFC weren't able to meet our government's compromise; so Ardokian membership in the International Freedom Coalition. A major part of what I offered in exchange to being accepted into the IFC (with the original requirements I was aware of), was an IFC trial into the past Ardokian crimes.

However, as Ardoki is no longer a member of the IFC, the IFC Judicial Committee has no legal authority to hold the trials (the only recognised organisation which would have power to do that, would be the World Assembly, which some countries don't recognise; the IFC can only control its member-states, it has no power over broader NS). So Ardoki will be forced to hold the trials itself, as no other organisation has the theoretical authority (apart from possibly the WA).

I'm not angry or upset; however, I never would have even thought of applying to the IFC if I knew what would be demanded of my country. I'm fine with sacrificing some power over our country if it's a member-state of an international organisation, but I would never go anywhere near as far as what was forced onto us after we had applied and been accepted.

Again, those were temporary measures to ensure that reforms were truly made. Thus your argument is seriously lacking in credibility.

Really?

So, just because the IFC claimed those measures (which would have granted the IFC absolute control over Ardoki) were temporary, my government must trust them and accept it? I guess if Luxembourg claimed it was going to occupy the United States temporarily, any opposition or arguments against that from the US government would be 'seriously lacking credibility' according to your logic.

1. Resolution 21 was in violation of the Constitution of the Ardokian Social Democratic Republic; therefore, it would be illegal and invalid in Ardoki. The IFC has no power to unilaterally ignore the Ardokian constitution, only the people and the legislature may change it in a process defined within the constitution itself.
2. Resolution 21 would have made the IFC the head of government; which is not only unconstitutional, but would be structurally incompatible with the Ardokian state. Why would our government or people, who are very brainwashed, ever be willing to accept what amounts to a coup by a foreign power they deeply distrust?
3. Just because the International Freedom Coalition claimed they were temporary, doesn't mean they will be. Theoretically, the occupation could be extended indefinitely if the government (which would be the IFC) requested it. There are numerous cases in history where states of emergency or occupations were manipulated and extended as a means of establishing a dictatorship. Why would our government and people fully trust the IFC?
4. If Resolution 21 was successfully implemented, that could very well lead to the complete annexation of Ardoki as a territory of the IFC, or even the division of Ardoki between IFC member-states. Since the Ardokian constitution would have been violated and ignored by the IFC with impunity, such a scenario is not impossible. Why would our government and people not fear the IFC would commit such an action (noting that they have been fed propaganda for years about SACTO and the IFC wishing to subjugate Ardoki)?
5. Resolution 21 would effectively dismantle the Ardokian military, just as Ardoki is being threatened by numerous nations. Why would our government and people accept this? They would never believe that the IFC would defend Ardoki as well as the Ardokian military, if the IFC even intended to defend Ardoki anyway.
6. Why would our government ever agree with Resolution 21, when it had not been even notified of the resolution nor given input into it. Our government doesn't even understand the very vague language in it, it could mean anything. They wouldn't just accept it out of blind trust.

Now I understand that some people are of the opinions that IC and OOC should be blended together, with IC characters and institutions completely aware of all OOC discussions and details. However, I don't really agree with that, so tend to avoid it as I consider it a bit unrealistic that characters can somehow know things they shouldn't know. But that's just me.

I've made the above points numerous times, and I don't want to repeat them again.

However, I applied to join the IFC only under the assumption that the additional requirements which had been discussed were what Ardoki had to surrender for membership. I never even thought myself of joining the IFC, I was approached and accepted after a little initial apprehension. I never would have applied to join the IFC, if I knew that after Ardoki's acceptance into the alliance, there would be numerous punitive demands made. I probably should have been more careful, and asked every IFC member before I applied; however, I expected the application process to be similar to every other application (with the noticeable addition of the agreed upon conditions). I'm trying to get out of it cleanly; however, the conditions I joined upon have been radically different from what was later forced upon me.

[Pillowlandia]

Well clearly you didn't want to stay, your government has made no IC attempts to try and actually talk about it besides just leaving. Brainwashed or not they're still spineless fools. Plus, why not do a big trust exercise? Still couldn't end up worse than what you had before.

[Inyourfaceistan]

To be fair to Ardoki the terms were kind of thrown upon him all the sudden.

To be fair to the IFC their terms are borderline white-flag surrender compared to what the rest of us have in store.

To be honest Ardoki isn't in a position to negoitate. Assuming equal military capabilities and similar troop numbers, Ardoki is at a 5-1 disadvantage before the feeding frenzy starts, and who knows what it will become once other nations with a bone to pick smell blood in the water...

[Ardoki]

Well clearly you didn't want to stay, your government has made no IC attempts to try and actually talk about it besides just leaving. Brainwashed or not they're still spineless fools. Plus, why not do a big trust exercise? Still couldn't end up worse than what you had before.

• I tried to have my government negotiate with an IFC delegation (to reach a compromise which would be legal and acceptable to both parties and to understand the interpretation of the resolution); however, that was denied. Our government was given the option of either accepting the resolution as it is (which would be unconstitutional; therefore, legally impossible), or leave the IFC; we had no choice but to leave.
• Ardoki doesn't really have anything to gain by joining the IFC, leaving it will do nothing but give our government more power. So, no, their actions in this case weren't foolish. We can reform ourselves, with the assistance of trustworthy nations who will not force punitive demands down our throats.
• Despite the atrocities of the Moriarty regime, there was prosperity and the vast majority of people were happy and relatively unoppressed. Basically surrendering to the IFC, is a lot worse than Ardoki has ever been.

[Ganos Lao]

-snip-

Keeping in mind Coleman's pro-Quinn statement on Setzuzoku and your telegrams, Ard, if you're truly serious about it, I'd be happy to foster the creation of the Hobbesian State of Ardoki.

[New Aeyariss]

And now, Maki Kojiro will likely rise up, take one of his favorite books off the shelf, dust it off, read his favourite passage for one more time, then order 10 000 copies of this book to be wired to Librarian and Ausitorian government offices, then to entire IFC:

"I was heaping scorn on an inexcusably silly idea — a practice I shall always follow. Anyone who clings to the historically untrue and thoroughly immoral doctrine that violence never settles anything I would advise to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler could referee and the jury might well be the Dodo, the Great Auk, and the Passenger Pigeon. Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and their freedoms." - Starship Troopers by Robert Henlein.

[Inyourfaceistan]

-snip-

Keeping in mind Coleman's pro-Quinn statement on Setzuzoku and your telegrams, Ard, if you're truly serious about it, I'd be happy to foster the creation of the Hobbesian State of Ardoki.

Are you going to fight us off?

Our 7-nation army couldn't hold you back?

*Dewww, de-dew dew dew dewww dew*

[Ganos Lao]

Keeping in mind Coleman's pro-Quinn statement on Setzuzoku and your telegrams, Ard, if you're truly serious about it, I'd be happy to foster the creation of the Hobbesian State of Ardoki.

Are you going to fight us off?

Our 7-nation army couldn't hold you back?

Que? Why would we fight any of you? There is no rhyme nor reason to any sort of war between our countries.

And why would any of you oppose the Hobbesian State of Ardoki? I already told Ardoki he would have to hand over Moriarty, etc if he was truly serious when he telegrammed me about wanting Ganosian assistance - there's no way Quinn would allow him to carry on as he has in the past.

Besides, I'm sure SACTO wouldn't mind Thomas Hobbes over Karl Marx.

[Inyourfaceistan]

Are you going to fight us off?

Our 7-nation army couldn't hold you back?

Que? Why would we fight any of you? There is no rhyme nor reason to any sort of war between our countries.

And why would any of you oppose the Hobbesian State of Ardoki? I already told Ardoki he would have to hand over Moriarty, etc if he was truly serious when he telegrammed me about wanting Ganosian assistance - there's no way Quinn would allow him to carry on as he has in the past.

Besides, I'm sure SACTO wouldn't mind Thomas Hobbes over Karl Marx.

How have you not heard this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0J2QdDbelmY

Also because right now we have a large alliance dedicated to the strategic neutralization of Ardoki's geopolitical power, punishment and compensation for war crimes as well as independence for annexed territory.
Ardoki has made 0 effort to negotiate with the Grand Coalition (again that that they are in a position to negotiate) so why should we hold back?

[Western Pacific Territories]

Are you going to fight us off?

Our 7-nation army couldn't hold you back?

Que? Why would we fight any of you? There is no rhyme nor reason to any sort of war between our countries.

And why would any of you oppose the Hobbesian State of Ardoki? I already told Ardoki he would have to hand over Moriarty, etc if he was truly serious when he telegrammed me about wanting Ganosian assistance - there's no way Quinn would allow him to carry on as he has in the past.

Besides, I'm sure SACTO wouldn't mind Thomas Hobbes over Karl Marx.

You see, from what I understand this is basically the problem:

Ardoki wants to hand over Moriarty and O'Brien, and even then they were rather reluctant to do so.
The Coalition wants the two above ^ and they want to convict politicians and soldiers + officers who are confirmed to have been involved in human rights violations and atrocities committed under Moriarty.
The IFC wants to do all the above ^ and investigate for more people involved.

[New Dahlonega]

Could I perhaps get involved in this? If not, that's fine. I just thought I'd ask.

[Inyourfaceistan]

Que? Why would we fight any of you? There is no rhyme nor reason to any sort of war between our countries.

And why would any of you oppose the Hobbesian State of Ardoki? I already told Ardoki he would have to hand over Moriarty, etc if he was truly serious when he telegrammed me about wanting Ganosian assistance - there's no way Quinn would allow him to carry on as he has in the past.

Besides, I'm sure SACTO wouldn't mind Thomas Hobbes over Karl Marx.

You see, from what I understand this is basically the problem:

Ardoki wants to hand over Moriarty and O'Brien, and even then they were rather reluctant to do so.
The Coalition wants the two above ^ and they want to convict politicians and soldiers + officers who are confirmed to have been involved in human rights violations and atrocities committed under Moriarty.
The IFC wants to do all the above ^ and investigate for more people involved.

Ardoki wants to be respected and stop being seen as a pariah state.

The IFC wants to reform Ardoki, investigate and convict some criminals as needed and ultimately bring Ardoki under IFC influence (and Austorian trade).

The Coalition wants to "break the back" of Ardoki so to speak by nullifying it's power projection and geopolitical stability, as well as killing or capturing a whole host of politicians, military leaders and scientists involved in the war crimes, as well as grant annexed territory independence.

[Ardoki]

-snip-

Keeping in mind Coleman's pro-Quinn statement on Setzuzoku and your telegrams, Ard, if you're truly serious about it, I'd be happy to foster the creation of the Hobbesian State of Ardoki.

Our government would be happy to recieve an advisor, it would probably be easier to discuss it that way than through telegrams. I rather like the current style of Ardoki (Ardokian Social Democratic Republic); but from what I've heard, our new government is already quite similar to Hobbesianism.

[Ardoki]

Que? Why would we fight any of you? There is no rhyme nor reason to any sort of war between our countries.

And why would any of you oppose the Hobbesian State of Ardoki? I already told Ardoki he would have to hand over Moriarty, etc if he was truly serious when he telegrammed me about wanting Ganosian assistance - there's no way Quinn would allow him to carry on as he has in the past.

Besides, I'm sure SACTO wouldn't mind Thomas Hobbes over Karl Marx.

How have you not heard this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0J2QdDbelmY

Also because right now we have a large alliance dedicated to the strategic neutralization of Ardoki's geopolitical power, punishment and compensation for war crimes as well as independence for annexed territory.
Ardoki has made 0 effort to negotiate with the Grand Coalition (again that that they are in a position to negotiate) so why should we hold back?

I did request negotiations; however, that was denied.

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

1. Resolution 21 was in violation of the Constitution of the Ardokian Social Democratic Republic; therefore, it would be illegal and invalid in Ardoki. The IFC has no power to unilaterally ignore the Ardokian constitution, only the people and the legislature may change it in a process defined within the constitution itself.
2. Resolution 21 would have made the IFC the head of government; which is not only unconstitutional, but would be structurally incompatible with the Ardokian state. Why would our government or people, who are very brainwashed, ever be willing to accept what amounts to a coup by a foreign power they deeply distrust?
3. Just because the International Freedom Coalition claimed they were temporary, doesn't mean they will be. Theoretically, the occupation could be extended indefinitely if the government (which would be the IFC) requested it. There are numerous cases in history where states of emergency or occupations were manipulated and extended as a means of establishing a dictatorship. Why would our government and people fully trust the IFC?
4. If Resolution 21 was successfully implemented, that could very well lead to the complete annexation of Ardoki as a territory of the IFC, or even the division of Ardoki between IFC member-states. Since the Ardokian constitution would have been violated and ignored by the IFC with impunity, such a scenario is not impossible. Why would our government and people not fear the IFC would commit such an action (noting that they have been fed propaganda for years about SACTO and the IFC wishing to subjugate Ardoki)?
5. Resolution 21 would effectively dismantle the Ardokian military, just as Ardoki is being threatened by numerous nations. Why would our government and people accept this? They would never believe that the IFC would defend Ardoki as well as the Ardokian military, if the IFC even intended to defend Ardoki anyway.
6. Why would our government ever agree with Resolution 21, when it had not been even notified of the resolution nor given input into it. Our government doesn't even understand the very vague language in it, it could mean anything. They wouldn't just accept it out of blind trust.

In this case, it's more like the US telling Guatemala what to do than Luxembourg telling the US what to do. If Resolution 21 was the surrender of Ardoki, it was the best surrender terms Ardoki could possibly get.

There are good replies that can be made to all your points:

1. Why didn't Ardoki amend their constitution then? There's nothing impossible about amending constitutions. If something good is not legal, make it legal.
2. To avoid destruction? I.e. sticks.
3. It's run by Ausitorians, and Ausitoria's interests are exactly the same as humanity's - their minds are often exactly as broad as their egos. Everybody should know that by now. I.e. carrots.
4. Ditto.
5. To avoid destruction? And Ardoki can't defeat the combined power of SACTO and the conservative wing of the IFC anyway. (Although it can probably avoid defeat, given guerrillas who could be sustained in the long term by organized support from refugees).
6. All of the above points.

Really all the Ausitorian establishment would hear is "blah blah mah government blah blah": they are surprised that Ardoki government cares so much about its own present and so little about its people's future. Hence there is virtually no sympathy for the Ardoki government, even if there is still sympathy for the Ardokians themselves.

Of course originally I was expecting the Ardoki government would simply co-operate with the international community (and that the international community wouldn't use such inflammatory rhetoric). Direct rule can easily be administered by (a) delegation and/or (b) by the rulers doing what the ruled want and/or (c) by the ruled doing what the rulers want anyway, which was what I told Ardoki by TG.

Unfortunately the Ardoki politicians sold it to their people as an invasion. What the Ardoki politicians should have done would be to have ensured that nobody would notice that Ardoki was being run by the IFC by doing roughly what the IFC wanted anyway so that the IFC wouldn't have had to do it directly. This was what the Ausitorian establishment consistently warned Ardoki about.

But they didn't heed the warning, instead becoming antagonistic. So it's like a sped-up version of Brexit or Trump. Now the Ardoki people will suffer exactly the invasion they were trying to avoid, except that being invaded by the IFC would have been like being invaded by the Republic of Heaven led by a President George Marshall. The irony is staggering... and all because the Ardoki politicians didn't do exactly as Ausitoria said.

Morale of the tale: 1. Listen to Ausitoria. 2. Do as Ausitoria says. 3. Profit. 4. Pursue happiness.

[Inyourfaceistan]

I did request negotiations; however, that was denied.

When?

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

How have you not heard this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0J2QdDbelmY

Also because right now we have a large alliance dedicated to the strategic neutralization of Ardoki's geopolitical power, punishment and compensation for war crimes as well as independence for annexed territory.
Ardoki has made 0 effort to negotiate with the Grand Coalition (again that that they are in a position to negotiate) so why should we hold back?

I did request negotiations; however, that was denied.

No it wasn't. Ardoki politicians simply didn't realize that Resolution 21 was the starting point from which Ardoki's government could (and should) have negotiated to ensure that the IFC government was an unintrusive and as least invasive as possible.

[New Aeyariss]

I did request negotiations; however, that was denied.

No it wasn't. Ardoki politicians simply didn't realize that Resolution 21 was the starting point from which Ardoki's government could (and should) have negotiated to ensure that the IFC government was an unintrusive and as least invasive as possible.

I am pretty sure that Ausitorian ideas were not ideas of entire IFC; reading from posts of multiple members such as Organized States, Devonta or Guadalupador, they were planning occupation since day one.

[Shazbotdom]

Que? Why would we fight any of you? There is no rhyme nor reason to any sort of war between our countries.

And why would any of you oppose the Hobbesian State of Ardoki? I already told Ardoki he would have to hand over Moriarty, etc if he was truly serious when he telegrammed me about wanting Ganosian assistance - there's no way Quinn would allow him to carry on as he has in the past.

Besides, I'm sure SACTO wouldn't mind Thomas Hobbes over Karl Marx.

How have you not heard this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0J2QdDbelmY

Also because right now we have a large alliance dedicated to the strategic neutralization of Ardoki's geopolitical power, punishment and compensation for war crimes as well as independence for annexed territory.
Ardoki has made 0 effort to negotiate with the Grand Coalition (again that that they are in a position to negotiate) so why should we hold back?

My problem is, that I am Allied with Ganosia via the Axis Commonwealth. I would take part in the blockade, but if the guns start shooting, I would not, by the treaty of the Axis Commonwealth, be able to open fire upon any asset of Ganosia.

[Ardoki]

1. Resolution 21 was in violation of the Constitution of the Ardokian Social Democratic Republic; therefore, it would be illegal and invalid in Ardoki. The IFC has no power to unilaterally ignore the Ardokian constitution, only the people and the legislature may change it in a process defined within the constitution itself.
2. Resolution 21 would have made the IFC the head of government; which is not only unconstitutional, but would be structurally incompatible with the Ardokian state. Why would our government or people, who are very brainwashed, ever be willing to accept what amounts to a coup by a foreign power they deeply distrust?
3. Just because the International Freedom Coalition claimed they were temporary, doesn't mean they will be. Theoretically, the occupation could be extended indefinitely if the government (which would be the IFC) requested it. There are numerous cases in history where states of emergency or occupations were manipulated and extended as a means of establishing a dictatorship. Why would our government and people fully trust the IFC?
4. If Resolution 21 was successfully implemented, that could very well lead to the complete annexation of Ardoki as a territory of the IFC, or even the division of Ardoki between IFC member-states. Since the Ardokian constitution would have been violated and ignored by the IFC with impunity, such a scenario is not impossible. Why would our government and people not fear the IFC would commit such an action (noting that they have been fed propaganda for years about SACTO and the IFC wishing to subjugate Ardoki)?
5. Resolution 21 would effectively dismantle the Ardokian military, just as Ardoki is being threatened by numerous nations. Why would our government and people accept this? They would never believe that the IFC would defend Ardoki as well as the Ardokian military, if the IFC even intended to defend Ardoki anyway.
6. Why would our government ever agree with Resolution 21, when it had not been even notified of the resolution nor given input into it. Our government doesn't even understand the very vague language in it, it could mean anything. They wouldn't just accept it out of blind trust.

In this case, it's more like the US telling Guatemala what to do than Luxembourg telling the US what to do. If Resolution 21 was the surrender of Ardoki, it was the best surrender terms Ardoki could possibly get.

There are good replies that can be made to all your points:

1. Why didn't Ardoki amend their constitution then? There's nothing impossible about amending constitutions. If something good is not legal, make it legal.
2. To avoid destruction? I.e. sticks.
3. It's run by Ausitorians, and Ausitoria's interests are exactly the same as humanity's - their minds are often exactly as broad as their egos. Everybody should know that by now. I.e. carrots.
4. Ditto.
5. To avoid destruction? And Ardoki can't defeat the combined power of SACTO and the conservative wing of the IFC anyway. (Although it can probably avoid defeat, given guerrillas who could be sustained in the long term by organized support from refugees).
6. All of the above points.

Really all the Ausitorian establishment would hear is "blah blah mah government blah blah": they are surprised that Ardoki government cares so much about its own present and so little about its people's future. Hence there is virtually no sympathy for the Ardoki government, even if there is still sympathy for the Ardokians themselves.

Of course originally I was expecting the Ardoki government would simply co-operate with the international community (and that the international community wouldn't use such inflammatory rhetoric). Direct rule can easily be administered by (a) delegation and/or (b) by the rulers doing what the ruled want and/or (c) by the ruled doing what the rulers want anyway, which was what I told Ardoki by TG.

Unfortunately the Ardoki politicians sold it to their people as an invasion. What the Ardoki politicians should have done would be to have ensured that nobody would notice that Ardoki was being run by the IFC by doing roughly what the IFC wanted anyway so that the IFC wouldn't have had to do it directly. This was what the Ausitorian establishment consistently warned Ardoki about.

But they didn't heed the warning, instead becoming antagonistic. So it's like a sped-up version of Brexit or Trump. Now the Ardoki people will suffer exactly the invasion they were trying to avoid, except that being invaded by the IFC would have been like being invaded by the Republic of Heaven led by a President George Marshall. The irony is staggering... and all because the Ardoki politicians didn't do exactly as Ausitoria said.

Morale of the tale: 1. Listen to Ausitoria. 2. Do as Ausitoria says. 3. Profit. 4. Pursue happiness.

• I did mention several times, that there is a process to changing the constitution (this process is also the same with plebiscites):
  
  
  1. The President proposes a referendum to alter the constitution, and provides a general outline of the referendum questions.
  2. The Grand Legislative Assembly writes the referendum questions, making sure to abide with the general outline offered by the President. The President can force the Grand Legislative Assembly to rewrite the questions, if they are deemed misleading or unfair.
  3. The referendum is called, and the campaign begins.
  4. All adult citizens are obliged to vote in the referendum. If a referendum question is not approved by at least two-thirds of valid ballots, the referendum fails.
  5. If a referendum questions is approved by at least two-thirds of valid ballots, it is sent to the Grand Legislative Assembly where it must achieve the support of at least half of all Members of the Grand Legislative Assembly.
  6. If it is passed by the Grand Legislative Assembly, the President signs it into law.
     
     The vast majority of our voters and Members of the Grand Legislative Assembly would not accept any such changes to the constitution, so even attempting it would no doubt increase fear and resentment of the IFC. I did tell you this several times.
• Ardoki is not going to be destroyed; our government and people know that. However, even if that were true, our government and people would not just surrender like that, they would take all their enemies (if not the entire world) down with them.
• Neither our government nor people have such a glowing view of the Ausitorians. They don't know much about them, apart that they rule the IFC. Ardokians don't trust by default, they are always slightly suspicious and paranoid of the intentions of others.
• I guess I can skip this point.
• We most likely can't defeat them on our own using conventional methods. However, if the existence of the Ardokian state is threatened, all our enemies (and probably the rest of the world) would be brought down with us. This is mostly meant as a deterrent; however, if the existence of the state really is threatened there is nothing to lose.
• I guess I can skip this point.

Our government believes Resolution 21 is only a single step short of annexation. They view Ardokian independence as offering a far better future than subjugation, regardless of the IFC's actual intentions. Most of our government was more supportive of the IFC than the people were originally; they only drifted away from the IFC because of the vocal hostility against Ardoki and out of fear of losing the support of the public. Our government feels betrayed by the IFC, so do our people.

[New Aeyariss]

Our government believes Resolution 21 is only a single step short of annexation. They view Ardokian independence as offering a far better future than subjugation, regardless of the IFC's actual intentions. Most of our government was more supportive of the IFC than the people were originally; they only drifted away from the IFC because of the vocal hostility against Ardoki and out of fear of losing the support of the public. Our government feels betrayed by the IFC, so do our people.

As I said earlier, I am pretty sure that multiple IFC members were all for occupation since the beginning, and had intent of carrying it regardless. They viewed resolution 21 as an excuse to begin the occupation, and weren't exactly in the same camp as Ausitoria was, neither did their geopolitical goals the same.

Take a look at OS, Devonta or Dorians... Even now Shaznoites spearhead the blockade.

[Ganos Lao]

Also because right now we have a large alliance dedicated to the strategic neutralization of Ardoki's geopolitical power, punishment and compensation for war crimes as well as independence for annexed territory.
Ardoki has made 0 effort to negotiate with the Grand Coalition (again that that they are in a position to negotiate) so why should we hold back?

Because we would do everything with a few strokes of the pen, making your coalition irrelevant. Well, for a time, anyway. My idea was that we would offer Ardoki terms, namely that if he does not do what is requested of him, the Hobbesian Commonwealth would abandon him to his fate of being swept aside by the Grand Coalition. Don't get me wrong (assuming that talk of retconning on the blockade OOC thread doesn't imply the whole thing's over now), we're still on your side. We want to deal with Ardoki just as much as you guys, but I won't toss up a chance to spread my ideology and flesh it out.

If Ardoki is truly serious about becoming Hobbesian, I'll help him. However, he won't get away with his past. He'll still have to repent of his follies and do what is asked of him by everyone involved.

[Ganos Lao]

How have you not heard this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0J2QdDbelmY

Also because right now we have a large alliance dedicated to the strategic neutralization of Ardoki's geopolitical power, punishment and compensation for war crimes as well as independence for annexed territory.
Ardoki has made 0 effort to negotiate with the Grand Coalition (again that that they are in a position to negotiate) so why should we hold back?

My problem is, that I am Allied with Ganosia via the Axis Commonwealth. I would take part in the blockade, but if the guns start shooting, I would not, by the treaty of the Axis Commonwealth, be able to open fire upon any asset of Ganosia.

Ganosia does not want war with anyone. We simply believe war should be a last resort against Ardoki, especially since Ganosians don't really have a history with them. There's no reason, thus, to shed Ardokian blood unless Ardoki attacked us first.

[Ardoki]

Also because right now we have a large alliance dedicated to the strategic neutralization of Ardoki's geopolitical power, punishment and compensation for war crimes as well as independence for annexed territory.
Ardoki has made 0 effort to negotiate with the Grand Coalition (again that that they are in a position to negotiate) so why should we hold back?

Because we would do everything with a few strokes of the pen, making your coalition irrelevant. Well, for a time, anyway. My idea was that we would offer Ardoki terms, namely that if he does not do what is requested of him, the Hobbesian Commonwealth would abandon him to his fate of being swept aside by the Grand Coalition. Don't get me wrong (assuming that talk of retconning on the blockade OOC thread doesn't imply the whole thing's over now), we're still on your side. We want to deal with Ardoki just as much as you guys, but I won't toss up a chance to spread my ideology and flesh it out.

If Ardoki is truly serious about becoming Hobbesian, I'll help him. However, he won't get away with his past. He'll still have to repent of his follies and do what is asked of him by everyone involved.

Can this be clarified further, please?