A World Without America II [Invite Only, See Within / OOC ]

[Unicario]

Yes, and we all remember that your China was utterly ludicrous.

Not as bad as Egypt.

[Ruridova]

So basically for Egypt to survive controlling all of the Muslim world in Africa and most of the Middle East, it has to control/quash all of the following different ethnicities and nationalities:

Kpelle, Bassa, Grebo, Gio, Manu, Kru, Lorma, Kissi, Gola, Temne, Mende, Limba, Kono, Mandinka, Loko, Fula, Susu, Kissi, Balanta, Manjaca, Papel, Wolof, Serer, Jola, Soninke, Serahuli, Pulaar, Berber, Tuareg, Senufo, Bwa, Songhai, Mande, Bambara, Dioula, Baole, Dan, Anyin, Cebaara, Mossi, Lobi, Gurunsi, Gurma, Akan, Dagbani, Mole, Ewe, Ga-Adangbe, Guan, Gonja, Bissa, Kotocole, Kabile, Fon, Adja, Yoruba, Bariba, Ottamari, Kabye, Dendi, Hausa, Igbo... and we're not even out of Western Africa. I haven't even touched the Maghreb, or East Africa, or the Middle East. This, plus religions, plus politics, plus nationalism, equals disaster.

[United Marxist Nations]

So basically for Egypt to survive controlling all of the Muslim world in Africa and most of the Middle East, it has to control/quash all of the following different ethnicities and nationalities:

Kpelle, Bassa, Grebo, Gio, Manu, Kru, Lorma, Kissi, Gola, Temne, Mende, Limba, Kono, Mandinka, Loko, Fula, Susu, Kissi, Balanta, Manjaca, Papel, Wolof, Serer, Jola, Soninke, Serahuli, Pulaar, Berber, Tuareg, Senufo, Bwa, Songhai, Mande, Bambara, Dioula, Baole, Dan, Anyin, Cebaara, Mossi, Lobi, Gurunsi, Gurma, Akan, Dagbani, Mole, Ewe, Ga-Adangbe, Guan, Gonja, Bissa, Kotocole, Kabile, Fon, Adja, Yoruba, Bariba, Ottamari, Kabye, Dendi, Hausa, Igbo... and we're not even out of Western Africa. I haven't even touched the Maghreb, or East Africa, or the Middle East. This, plus religions, plus politics, plus nationalism, equals disaster.

Have to agree with this. It could work for a while, but not forever.

[Ruridova]

So basically for Egypt to survive controlling all of the Muslim world in Africa and most of the Middle East, it has to control/quash all of the following different ethnicities and nationalities:

Kpelle, Bassa, Grebo, Gio, Manu, Kru, Lorma, Kissi, Gola, Temne, Mende, Limba, Kono, Mandinka, Loko, Fula, Susu, Kissi, Balanta, Manjaca, Papel, Wolof, Serer, Jola, Soninke, Serahuli, Pulaar, Berber, Tuareg, Senufo, Bwa, Songhai, Mande, Bambara, Dioula, Baole, Dan, Anyin, Cebaara, Mossi, Lobi, Gurunsi, Gurma, Akan, Dagbani, Mole, Ewe, Ga-Adangbe, Guan, Gonja, Bissa, Kotocole, Kabile, Fon, Adja, Yoruba, Bariba, Ottamari, Kabye, Dendi, Hausa, Igbo... and we're not even out of Western Africa. I haven't even touched the Maghreb, or East Africa, or the Middle East. This, plus religions, plus politics, plus nationalism, equals disaster.

Have to agree with this. It could work for a while, but not forever.

Oh, yeah, I'm not disputing that it could have worked. It could have worked at really any number of points before the Enlightenment and nationalism. The problem is that it is no longer that era. Rome, the Rashidun and Byzantium are dead; OTL, Austria-Hungary will rise no higher and the Ottomans are already declining. This is the era of nationalism, where the Enlightenment concept of self-determination was applied not just to individuals but to nations. This is the era where it is loyalty to those like you that is more important that loyalty to rulers or a state. Shias will not want to be ruled by Sunnis; Jews and Christians will not want to be ruled by Muslims; black Africans will not want to be ruled by Arabs; a man in Damascus or Musqat or Tripoli or Rabat will not want to be ruled by Cairo. Maybe a particularly talented leader could keep it together for his lifetime, but once he's gone, the structure is simply too shaky.

Some massively multiethnic states will survive, yes- states like Russia and China, which have a single dominant ethnicity that is tightly bound together ruling over all the others. The Arab identity is not unified like the Russian and Han identities, however, as history proves.

History provides us the examples of nationalism in Syria, Jordan, Palestine, Arabia, Libya, Algeria, and Morocco, and OTL in Egypt herself- nationalisms that should be just as troublesome to Cairo as they were to London and Paris. The Jews will want a state for themselves in Canaan, not to live under the Egyptian thumb. The Maronites of Lebanon, the Assyrian Orthodox, the Nestorians, the Yazidi- they will not want to be ruled by a Muslim. The Shias in Lebanon, Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, and Yemen will not want to be ruled by Sunnis. The hundreds of black sub-Saharan ethnicities will think of Egypt as any other colonial power; they will want to determine their national fate for themselves. Then, of course, there is politics: the communists, the republicans, the Islamists, the fascists, all these different factions that may not appreciate the style of government Egypt uses.

I'd guess that what Uni is going for is Pan-Arabism mixed with Pan-Islamism. That has been tried repeatedly, and it has failed repeatedly. Nasser only briefly united Egypt, Syria, and Yemen before nationalism tore that country apart. Jordan and Iraq tried something similar under the Hashim kings, and that didn't work either. And when the pan-Arab Ba'ath party rose to power in Iraq and Syria both governments made no overtures towards unification. So even when pan-Arabism arose in the 1960s, it wasn't exactly a raging success. Not to mention that ethnoreligious IRL, conflict plagues many of the African countries Uni would be conquering.

To use EU4 as an analogy, Egypt can have a 6/6/6 leader keeping this together for a few decades, but once he's gone Egypt has 1120% overextension, -3 stability, and is facing imminent rebellions from patriots, nationalists, zealots, revolutionaries, and particularists.

[Unicario]

I get the point. Thank you. If you think I'm going to have Egypt's empire implode all the way down to modern Egypt, you're crazy, because that's not going to happen. Remember that Egyptians are Arabs too, and therefore speak Arabic. They also share the same religion as the majority of North Africa. They have a cultural kinship with all the Sunni Arabic nations. I could hold on to the majority of North Africa through the fact that that I am a large, secular/tolerant, pan-Arab state.

Also: Historically, the Soviet Union failed, but I'm not demanding Jeff have his Russian communist state implode into a pile of slag,
I'm not forcing Boji to have China be overthrown by radical republicans and then promptly collapse into the Warlording States,
I'm not forcing Ruri to deal with the fact that Britain and other nations would want to forcibly colonize it,

So what "historical" shit are we forced to follow, considering that it's even outlined in the Rules that realism is not required, albeit encouraged? Plus, Nobody gave me much crap about the Rumite Empire, why all of a sudden are you targeting Egypt, hm?

I'm just sayin'. It's the 18th century -- a pan-Arab identity can emerge, the reason why it didn't OTL is because the Arabs were thoroughly disunited (no major Arab states, European colonies, etc.)

[United Marxist Nations]

I get the point. Thank you. If you think I'm going to have Egypt's empire implode all the way down to modern Egypt, you're crazy, because that's not going to happen. Remember that Egyptians are Arabs too, and therefore speak Arabic. They also share the same religion as the majority of North Africa. They have a cultural kinship with all the Sunni Arabic nations. I could hold on to the majority of North Africa through the fact that that I am a large, secular/tolerant, pan-Arab state.

Also: Historically, the Soviet Union failed, but I'm not demanding Jeff have his Russian communist state implode into a pile of slag,
I'm not forcing Boji to have China be overthrown by radical republicans and then promptly collapse into the Warlording States,
I'm not forcing Ruri to deal with the fact that Britain and other nations would want to forcibly colonize it,

So what "historical" shit are we forced to follow, considering that it's even outlined in the Rules that realism is not required, albeit encouraged? Plus, Nobody gave me much crap about the Rumite Empire, why all of a sudden are you targeting Egypt, hm?

I'm just sayin'. It's the 18th century -- a pan-Arab identity can emerge, the reason why it didn't OTL is because the Arabs were thoroughly disunited (no major Arab states, European colonies, etc.)

We're not saying it has to implode, we're just saying it can't be in some glorious age forever in defiance of all logic. Maintaining an Empire along North Africa and the Arab areas of the middle East is possible with the experience the Egyptian government & infrastructure would build up, but one over a third of Sub-Saharan Africa to boot would be pretty damn hard to keep running.

Also, on the points of the others:

1) The Soviet Union largely collapsed from economic strain due to having its military sector over-bloated from trying to compete with the US military. Most of its people, outside of the Baltics and Georgia, were still happy with the USSR itself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Uni ... ndum,_1991

2) The course of China would be so altered, that there's no telling what would happen (as is the case with your Empire in the Arab parts creating a pan-Arab idea).

3) Ruri likely chose Siam because it wasn't colonized.

[Unicario]

I'm emphasizing the fact that Egypt would actively craft an pan-Arab identity, seeking to establish a pan-Arab state -- the black Africans and non-Arab Christians/Jews/etc. living in the Empire aren't going to be second class citizens or oppressed; the Jizya tax will be abolished by the end of 1806, and there wouldn't be a suppression of Jewish and Christian practice, as well as Shia and Ibadi as well -- the situation would probably lead to parts of the Empire becoming autonomous self-governates in the 20th century, establishing Egypt's continued control, yet with a lesser hand.

Also: the Age of Nationalism has already been set in motion by the stroke of the pen of "Ludwig von Licht" (a name which won't appear again later on, Catherine will drop that pseudonym later in life and publish her own works directly) -- the doctrine of German unification and "pan-Germanism" has already set the framework for nationalism; which is further fed by Greece's war of independence, which is in itself a nationalist revolution (otherwise you'd have a Habsburg as Emperor of Byzantium, not Greece.)

[Unicario]

Ali Bey al-Kabir (علي بك الكبير)
Qays'r al-Misr, Malik al-Maghrib, Malik al-Jazīra

Birth: 1728
Death: 13 March 1814
Ethnicity: Abkhaz
Born as Amiran Rostom
Father: Tengiz Rostom, Orthodox Bishop
Mother: Khatuna Rostom
Siblings: None
Religion: Orthodox Christianity (1728 - 1745)
Sunni Islam (1745 - 1814)
Former occupation: Slave

Wife: Vesa (m. 1773)

Children:

1. Muhammad Ali al-Kabir (b. 1769, adopted)

[Ruridova]

Guys, I'll be going on hiatus for the next five or six weeks for OoC reasons. Since I'm not playing anyone too major, this shouldn't do too much damage. I'll drop by when able, but the only thing I can guarantee is that I should be back in May or maybe June.

Hope everything goes well.

[Bojikami]

Well this got quiet.

[Luziyca]

Well this got quiet.

It sure did.

[Unicario]

PERHAPS ANOTHER TIME SKIP IS IN ORDER THEN, AYE, CHAPS?

[Bojikami]

PERHAPS ANOTHER TIME SKIP IS IN ORDER THEN, AYE, CHAPS?

I suppose so.

[Unicario]

I'll give some thought then.

[Bojikami]

*bump*

[United Marxist Nations]

Must... have... timeskip. Things... planned

[Unicario]

Must... have... timeskip. Things... planned

Quite. I don't know when to skip to, since I don't want to circumvent the entire American Revolution. Maybe we can go to July 4, 1776? Or sometime during the Revolution Boji deems relevant?

[Bojikami]

Must... have... timeskip. Things... planned

Quite. I don't know when to skip to, since I don't want to circumvent the entire American Revolution. Maybe we can go to July 4, 1776? Or sometime during the Revolution Boji deems relevant?

July 4th is fine. If you really want it can be as late as December 1776, as that is really important for America.

[Unicario]

July 4, 1776 it is. Go.

[Pimps Inc]

I will post on wed or thursday.

[Bojikami]

Please don't be dead.

[United Marxist Nations]

I'll post something when I get to my computer in 20 minutes or so.

[The Vaktovian Empire]

Hello

[Bojikami]

Hello

Um, Hello? Did you not resign or something?

[Luziyca]

Since I have been pretty inactive, I think I'll just end my rule over Korea and let somebody else have it. Thank you for the memories, and I may come back eventually.