A World Without America II [Invite Only, See Within / OOC ]

[Unicario]

It may sound harsh, the restrictions I put on vassals, but it's how that shit worked. You can try a diplomatic option, but I don't think many examples in real life did that.

[Ruridova]

Aegean Sea Strait
Controller must control Naxos, Rhodes and Gallipoli.
Only allies of controller may pass in and out of the region unless otherwise declared.
Controller right now: Ottoman Empire

Naxos and Rhodes are Greek...

[The Vaktovian Empire]

@Uni, edited my post so that it reflects your rule changes and Strait agreements.

[Ruridova]

For now. Once Yeongjo dies however, his son will probably attempt to get Korea to declare independence from China, albeit gradually (i.e. allowing the Dutch and British to expand their presence, but only keep direct control of Nampo and Incheon respectively, constitutional monarchy, before culminating in independence).

If Korea declares independence, China will gain a province.

The 1700s and 1800s were not peak points of Chinese power.

[Bojikami]

If Korea declares independence, China will gain a province.

The 1700s and 1800s were not peak points of Chinese power.

Not for the Qing.

But for the Ming, however...

And plus, even if it wasnt, it won't take that much to overwhelm Korea as China. Not to mention Japan would take the oppertunity to invade or enslave the Koreans also.

[Ruridova]

The 1700s and 1800s were not peak points of Chinese power.

Not for the Qing.

But for the Ming, however...

The Ming were reactionaries. Their big thing was bringing China back to the ways of the Qin, Han, Tang, and Song. They wanted to turn back the clock as though the Yuan Dynasty had never been a thing. They were reactionaries.

[Bojikami]

Not for the Qing.

But for the Ming, however...

The Ming were reactionaries. Their big thing was bringing China back to the ways of the Qin, Han, Tang, and Song. They wanted to turn back the clock as though the Yuan Dynasty had never been a thing. They were reactionaries.

Not in terms of technological progress Ruri, and I'm sure Est would agree with me on the fact that if Ming persisted it would become a mighty nation in asia.

They were reactionary in the fact that they had just overcome Mongol oppression and become a great nation again. By your logic, Megali Greece was reactionary.

[Ruridova]

The Ming were reactionaries. Their big thing was bringing China back to the ways of the Qin, Han, Tang, and Song. They wanted to turn back the clock as though the Yuan Dynasty had never been a thing. They were reactionaries.

Not in terms of technological progress Ruri, and I'm sure Est would agree with me on the fact that if Ming persisted it would become a mighty nation in asia.

They turned very much inwards towards the end of their rule, and we are definitely past that point.

Just because Luziyca got away with an irrealistic super-China doesn't mean you should.

[The Vaktovian Empire]

Not in terms of technological progress Ruri, and I'm sure Est would agree with me on the fact that if Ming persisted it would become a mighty nation in asia.

They turned very much inwards towards the end of their rule, and we are definitely past that point.

Just because Luziyca got away with an irrealistic super-China doesn't mean you should.

Ha Truuueeee

[Bojikami]

Not in terms of technological progress Ruri, and I'm sure Est would agree with me on the fact that if Ming persisted it would become a mighty nation in asia.

They turned very much inwards towards the end of their rule, and we are definitely past that point.

Just because Luziyca got away with an irrealistic super-China doesn't mean you should.

For the last damn time it is not irrealistic. Chinese rulers were not some hive mind nor did they keep the same uniform ideologies.

[Unicario]

From what I have gathered, Boji's China will violate no rules yet. The Ming were reactionaries, but many could see the writings on the wall.

[Bojikami]

From what I have gathered, Boji's China will violate no rules yet. The Ming were reactionaries, but many could see the writings on the wall.

And they weren't even reactionaries. They simply longed for the days of glory prior to Mongol conquest.

[Ruridova]

They turned very much inwards towards the end of their rule, and we are definitely past that point.

Just because Luziyca got away with an irrealistic super-China doesn't mean you should.

For the last damn time it is not irrealistic. Chinese rulers were not some hive mind nor did they keep the same uniform ideologies.

The Late Ming rulers were reactionary. Many of the powerful Chinese political factions that controlled imperial administration were reactionary. Local leaders were reactionary. The clergy was generally reactionary, particularly the omnipresent Confucians.

From what I have gathered, Boji's China will violate no rules yet. The Ming were reactionaries, but many could see the writings on the wall.

And they weren't even reactionaries. They simply longed for the days of glory prior to Mongol conquest.

They sought to turn back the clock and return China to the policies and ruling style of the pre-Yuan dynasties. They sought to abolish the changes the Mongols had made and return to legalistic and Confucian principles. That is reactionism.

From what I have gathered, Boji's China will violate no rules yet. The Ming were reactionaries, but many could see the writings on the wall.

Except, you know, when Luziyca's China last RP maintained its iron hold on its vassals, stated technologically advanced, avoided the many military defeats China IRL suffered, and did all the stuff Boji is doing, you were fuming about how damned irrealistic it was.

[Unicario]

For the last damn time it is not irrealistic. Chinese rulers were not some hive mind nor did they keep the same uniform ideologies.

The Late Ming rulers were reactionary. Many of the powerful Chinese political factions that controlled imperial administration were reactionary. Local leaders were reactionary. The clergy was generally reactionary, particularly the omnipresent Confucians.

And they weren't even reactionaries. They simply longed for the days of glory prior to Mongol conquest.

They sought to turn back the clock and return China to the policies and ruling style of the pre-Yuan dynasties. They sought to abolish the changes the Mongols had made and return to legalistic and Confucian principles. That is reactionism.

From what I have gathered, Boji's China will violate no rules yet. The Ming were reactionaries, but many could see the writings on the wall.

Except, you know, when Luziyca's China last RP maintained its iron hold on its vassals, stated technologically advanced, avoided the many military defeats China IRL suffered, and did all the stuff Boji is doing, you were fuming about how damned irrealistic it was.

1. China had no vassals, I was literally fucking with his China in every way I could.
2. Chinese technological advancement basically bankrolled off of Japanese technological advancement. We had to give to our allies.
3. China never went into war in AWWA 2; they went to war once, with Japan, and got the SHIT beat out of them.
4. It's only been two years into the RP, please be patient with Boji before you start going off on him. Trust me, mate. I understand your concerns, being Siam and all. You have the Dutch on your border, I'd recommend courting them.

[Ruridova]

The Late Ming rulers were reactionary. Many of the powerful Chinese political factions that controlled imperial administration were reactionary. Local leaders were reactionary. The clergy was generally reactionary, particularly the omnipresent Confucians.

They sought to turn back the clock and return China to the policies and ruling style of the pre-Yuan dynasties. They sought to abolish the changes the Mongols had made and return to legalistic and Confucian principles. That is reactionism.

Except, you know, when Luziyca's China last RP maintained its iron hold on its vassals, stated technologically advanced, avoided the many military defeats China IRL suffered, and did all the stuff Boji is doing, you were fuming about how damned irrealistic it was.

1. China had no vassals, I was literally fucking with his China in every way I could.
2. Chinese technological advancement basically bankrolled off of Japanese technological advancement. We had to give to our allies.
3. China never went into war in AWWA 2; they went to war once, with Japan, and got the SHIT beat out of them.
4. It's only been two years into the RP, please be patient with Boji before you start going off on him.

1. China had all those Central Asian nations and Mongolia and Tibet and Machuria. That is not nothing.
2. China was not your ally in that RP. You spent half of it almost at war with him.
3. China somehow avoided the Opium Wars and the Sino-Japanese War and the Sino-Russian War and the Boxer Rebellion and the Taiping Rebellion and all the other peasant rebellions.
4. He's made it perfectly clear that China will be very prosperous and very powerful throughout the next century of RP, rather unlike OTL China and rather like Luziyca's China.

[Unicario]

Ruri, look, I'm trying to be understanding of your position, but bro, it's literally only 1775. Don't get too worked up, yet.

[Ruridova]

Anyways, the Greek War ends in 1777 and all the famous battles aside from the final one have been fought, so...

[Estainia]

This is not Great Qing, therefore it is not hearkened to the same string of weaknesses and internal dissent as Great Qing was. This Great Ming is one that has for all intents and purposes, survived this long because it could presumably adapt to the rising changes of technologies (some of which they even literally created or pioneered over three hundred years ago). The idea that because Great Qing was weak, this Great Ming must be weak, is bullshit and frankly either one of two things, Eurocentrism and the idea that White Christian Europeans Are God And All Others Are Inferior; or you're trying to weaken China OOCly to stop IC ambitions in Asia out of fear it might just stop you.

There's the two-bits from the side-line guy.

[Luziyca]

This is not Great Qing, therefore it is not hearkened to the same string of weaknesses and internal dissent as Great Qing was. This Great Ming is one that has for all intents and purposes, survived this long because it could presumably adapt to the rising changes of technologies (some of which they even literally created or pioneered over three hundred years ago). The idea that because Great Qing was weak, this Great Ming must be weak, is bullshit and frankly either one of two things, Eurocentrism and the idea that White Christian Europeans Are God And All Others Are Inferior; or you're trying to weaken China OOCly to stop IC ambitions in Asia out of fear it might just stop you.

There's the two-bits from the side-line guy.

Yeah. To be honest, the continuation of the Ming would be confusing because if the player drops that and someone else joins in and RPs China, they may roleplay as the Qing dynasty (which was what happened with me).

[Bojikami]

This is not Great Qing, therefore it is not hearkened to the same string of weaknesses and internal dissent as Great Qing was. This Great Ming is one that has for all intents and purposes, survived this long because it could presumably adapt to the rising changes of technologies (some of which they even literally created or pioneered over three hundred years ago). The idea that because Great Qing was weak, this Great Ming must be weak, is bullshit and frankly either one of two things, Eurocentrism and the idea that White Christian Europeans Are God And All Others Are Inferior; or you're trying to weaken China OOCly to stop IC ambitions in Asia out of fear it might just stop you.

There's the two-bits from the side-line guy.

Yeah. To be honest, the continuation of the Ming would be confusing because if the player drops that and someone else joins in and RPs China, they may roleplay as the Qing dynasty (which was what happened with me).

I am unlikely to drop Ming though, as I find myself completely fascinated by China.

[United Marxist Nations]

Boji has prior told me about his plans for China, and trust me, the Ming aren't going to be some gigantic, always prosperous thing that will never have weak-points. For the time being, Luz would probably prefer to stay under Chinese vassalship, as it is a good defense while he tries to modernize his military.

[Luziyca]

Yeah. To be honest, the continuation of the Ming would be confusing because if the player drops that and someone else joins in and RPs China, they may roleplay as the Qing dynasty (which was what happened with me).

I am unlikely to drop Ming though, as I find myself completely fascinated by China.

Yeah. That was how I was when I was RPing China.

[Bojikami]

Anyways, the Greek War ends in 1777 and all the famous battles aside from the final one have been fought, so...

I'm for a skip I guess. We could skip ahead a bit in the revolution in America aswell.

[Unicario]

Anyways, the Greek War ends in 1777 and all the famous battles aside from the final one have been fought, so...

I'm for a skip I guess. We could skip ahead a bit in the revolution in America aswell.

After 20 July 1775, which is really important to my narrative.

[Mitteleuropa]

Aegean Sea Strait
Controller must control Naxos, Rhodes and Gallipoli.
Only allies of controller may pass in and out of the region unless otherwise declared.
Controller right now: Ottoman Empire

Naxos and Rhodes are Greek...

At the moment Greece and the Turks are in a revolutionary war. Greece is seceding. When the war ends... you'll be controller.