Excalibur Squadron OOC 2: The Song Remains the Same

[Glasgia]

Uh-well-uhm.... I should probably apologise now. Just in case I make some kind of mistake. If I inaccurately describe pulling a trigger or something. Please don't hurt me...

A mistake like that wouldn't set me off, obviously.

Writing a wall o' text of Nazi fanfiction, then asking us to give feedback as to its "plausibility" is another matter.
You...you aren't planning on doing that, are you?
(and for the record, this had been like...the third time he'd done this exact thing)

As a British Libertarian Socialist, I love writing Nazi fanfiction

[Goram]

like, a cockpit or something, since I've never seen the inside of a Spit cockpit, and have no clue how much each Mk differs from another in that department.

Speaking of, this is something I've meant to post for a while.

IT'S TIME FOR GORAM'S GUESS THE COCKPIT GAME! But first, some exposition. I work at the RAF Museum, Hendon. As something of a perk of the job, I get to (every now and then) poke around some of the aircraft. Here are the crappy iPhone pictures I took, if you can name all the aircraft, you get a cookie. And to aid you in your guessing, I'll be kind enough to add some clues. Aren't I nice?

Roy Chadwick's final design.

Roy Chadwick's best design.

A maritime strike aircraft of Gulf War fame.

Black Six.

Excalibur's current mount.

A utility chopper, currently in service with the Royal Navy.

[Kouralia]

A maritime strike aircraft of Gulf War fame.

That's the sexiest aircraft ever made, amirite?

[Morrdh]

A maritime strike aircraft of Gulf War fame.

That's the sexiest aircraft ever made, amirite?

Aww yeah...

[Goram]

That's the sexiest aircraft ever made, amirite?

Aww yeah...

You're right. It's the cockpit of a Gulf War veteran Bucc. Responsible for 12 laser designations and one bomb released.

Mind you, I didn't expect that one to be the one you chaps commented on. Expected it to be the first one.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Hey Len...uh...I couldn't help but notice that you never publicly admitted I was right about the whole mortar thing.
If you could do that for me, that would be great.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

That should cover most everything, I think.
Maybe we'll return to the boat tomorrow.

Anyways, now watching Anatomy of a Murder - Jimmy Stewart is quickly becoming one of my favorite actors. And maybe he can even have an Excalibur cameo at some point, given that unlike some famous WW2 chickenhawks (Wayne, Reagan, etc.), he actually served in combat with the 8th Air Force in some pretty hairy assignments!

[Grenartia]

Uh-well-uhm.... I should probably apologise now. Just in case I make some kind of mistake. If I inaccurately describe pulling a trigger or something. Please don't hurt me...

A mistake like that wouldn't set me off, obviously.

Writing a wall o' text of Nazi fanfiction, then asking us to give feedback as to its "plausibility" is another matter.
You...you aren't planning on doing that, are you?
(and for the record, this had been like...the third time he'd done this exact thing)

It occurs to me that the only way you could plausibly get Nazi Germany to not be wiped out at the cessation of hostilities is if the Third Reich somehow sued the Western Allies for peace and gave massive concessions in exchange for protection from annihilation by the Soviets.

Of course, this would probably only lead to a much more intense Cold War (one which very well could've gone nuclear).

A mistake like that wouldn't set me off, obviously.

Writing a wall o' text of Nazi fanfiction, then asking us to give feedback as to its "plausibility" is another matter.
You...you aren't planning on doing that, are you?
(and for the record, this had been like...the third time he'd done this exact thing)

As a British Libertarian Socialist, I love writing Nazi fanfiction

Ooh, Mein Fuhrer, you've Focke-Wulfed me right in my Goebbels!

like, a cockpit or something, since I've never seen the inside of a Spit cockpit, and have no clue how much each Mk differs from another in that department.

Speaking of, this is something I've meant to post for a while.

IT'S TIME FOR GORAM'S GUESS THE COCKPIT GAME! But first, some exposition. I work at the RAF Museum, Hendon. As something of a perk of the job, I get to (every now and then) poke around some of the aircraft. Here are the crappy iPhone pictures I took, if you can name all the aircraft, you get a cookie. And to aid you in your guessing, I'll be kind enough to add some clues. Aren't I nice?

Roy Chadwick's final design.

Roy Chadwick's best design.

A maritime strike aircraft of Gulf War fame.

Black Six.

Excalibur's current mount.

A utility chopper, currently in service with the Royal Navy.

I only know what 5th one is, and I've got a good guess what the 3rd is.

3rd is a Harrier. Coincidentally, mom and I watched True Lies last night, and mom seems utterly convinced that the Harrier in question would've "exploded" due to "crashing" (really more of an aggressive bumping, if that) into the office window. She says that every damn time we watch the movie, and every damn time, I have to tell her its not moving fast enough, and that tail is not made out of explodium. There's a few things about that entire Harrier scene which miss the mark, but that is not one of them.

5th is obviously the Mk V Spit. Nice lens flare all over the glorious details, though. I mean, seriously, I haven't seen lens flare that aggressive since the first Abramsverse Trek movie.

Aww yeah...

You're right. It's the cockpit of a Gulf War veteran Bucc. Responsible for 12 laser designations and one bomb released.

Mind you, I didn't expect that one to be the one you chaps commented on. Expected it to be the first one.

Bu-bu-but, the Harrier! Jumping Jets!

That should cover most everything, I think.
Maybe we'll return to the boat tomorrow.

Anyways, now watching Anatomy of a Murder - Jimmy Stewart is quickly becoming one of my favorite actors. And maybe he can even have an Excalibur cameo at some point, given that unlike some famous WW2 chickenhawks (Wayne, Reagan, etc.), he actually served in combat with the 8th Air Force in some pretty hairy assignments!

Is it ironic that he played a 4F in Its A Wonderful Life?

[Morrdh]

A mistake like that wouldn't set me off, obviously.

Writing a wall o' text of Nazi fanfiction, then asking us to give feedback as to its "plausibility" is another matter.
You...you aren't planning on doing that, are you?
(and for the record, this had been like...the third time he'd done this exact thing)

It occurs to me that the only way you could plausibly get Nazi Germany to not be wiped out at the cessation of hostilities is if the Third Reich somehow sued the Western Allies for peace and gave massive concessions in exchange for protection from annihilation by the Soviets.

Of course, this would probably only lead to a much more intense Cold War (one which very well could've gone nuclear).

Some arguments I've seen is that Germany went to war five years early, if it had waited then maybe it would've had a modern navy capable of taking on the Royal Navy somewhere approaching equal footing. The other argument I've seen is that the Germans should've just focused on turning out Panzers by the bucket load (much like the Allied Sherman and Soviet T-34) rather than waste their resources on building 'big' tanks that didn't have such a good battlefield performance.

[Goram]

Speaking of, this is something I've meant to post for a while.

IT'S TIME FOR GORAM'S GUESS THE COCKPIT GAME! But first, some exposition. I work at the RAF Museum, Hendon. As something of a perk of the job, I get to (every now and then) poke around some of the aircraft. Here are the crappy iPhone pictures I took, if you can name all the aircraft, you get a cookie. And to aid you in your guessing, I'll be kind enough to add some clues. Aren't I nice?

Roy Chadwick's final design.

Roy Chadwick's best design.

A maritime strike aircraft of Gulf War fame.

Black Six.

Excalibur's current mount.

A utility chopper, currently in service with the Royal Navy.

I only know what 5th one is, and I've got a good guess what the 3rd is.

3rd is a Harrier. Coincidentally, mom and I watched True Lies last night, and mom seems utterly convinced that the Harrier in question would've "exploded" due to "crashing" (really more of an aggressive bumping, if that) into the office window. She says that every damn time we watch the movie, and every damn time, I have to tell her its not moving fast enough, and that tail is not made out of explodium. There's a few things about that entire Harrier scene which miss the mark, but that is not one of them.

5th is obviously the Mk V Spit. Nice lens flare all over the glorious details, though. I mean, seriously, I haven't seen lens flare that aggressive since the first Abramsverse Trek movie.

1. Avro Vulcan
2. Avro Lancaster
3. Blackburn Buccaneer
4. Messerschmitt Bf.109F
5. Spitfire Mk. Vc
6. AgustaWestland AW101 "Merlin"

And yeah, sorry about the lens flare. Had five minutes spare at this event, before I had to get back to the aircraft I was looking after (Merlin). Made a flying (geddit?) visit around the aircraft I wanted to see, couldn't stay for very long.

[Glasgia]

It occurs to me that the only way you could plausibly get Nazi Germany to not be wiped out at the cessation of hostilities is if the Third Reich somehow sued the Western Allies for peace and gave massive concessions in exchange for protection from annihilation by the Soviets.

Of course, this would probably only lead to a much more intense Cold War (one which very well could've gone nuclear).

Some arguments I've seen is that Germany went to war five years early, if it had waited then maybe it would've had a modern navy capable of taking on the Royal Navy somewhere approaching equal footing. The other argument I've seen is that the Germans should've just focused on turning out Panzers by the bucket load (much like the Allied Sherman and Soviet T-34) rather than waste their resources on building 'big' tanks that didn't have such a good battlefield performance.

The Germans definitely weren't ready for war in '39. I doubt they'd have ever matched the Royal Navy, at least for experience even if they could build an equivalent fleet, but with five more years Germany would be far better prepared. Even then I can't see a German victory against the Soviets, especially if they continued their failed tank exploits with heavier machines, but closer alignment with the USSR might've allowed the Germans to force the allies to some kind of peace after the fall of continental Europe.

[Len Hyet]

Hey Len...uh...I couldn't help but notice that you never publicly admitted I was right about the whole mortar thing.
If you could do that for me, that would be great.

Tigger was probably correct about the mortar thing

[Goram]

Some arguments I've seen is that Germany went to war five years early, if it had waited then maybe it would've had a modern navy capable of taking on the Royal Navy somewhere approaching equal footing. The other argument I've seen is that the Germans should've just focused on turning out Panzers by the bucket load (much like the Allied Sherman and Soviet T-34) rather than waste their resources on building 'big' tanks that didn't have such a good battlefield performance.

The Germans definitely weren't ready for war in '39. I doubt they'd have ever matched the Royal Navy, at least for experience even if they could build an equivalent fleet, but with five more years Germany would be far better prepared. Even then I can't see a German victory against the Soviets, especially if they continued their failed tank exploits with heavier machines, but closer alignment with the USSR might've allowed the Germans to force the allies to some kind of peace after the fall of continental Europe.

To be fair, if (theoretically) the Germans had been able to build the ships that Plan Z called for, the the Royal Navy would have been in serious, serious trouble. It would not have been able to engage the German battlefleet with an advantage, possibly not even with parity.

[Glasgia]

The Germans definitely weren't ready for war in '39. I doubt they'd have ever matched the Royal Navy, at least for experience even if they could build an equivalent fleet, but with five more years Germany would be far better prepared. Even then I can't see a German victory against the Soviets, especially if they continued their failed tank exploits with heavier machines, but closer alignment with the USSR might've allowed the Germans to force the allies to some kind of peace after the fall of continental Europe.

To be fair, if (theoretically) the Germans had been able to build the ships that Plan Z called for, the the Royal Navy would have been in serious, serious trouble. It would not have been able to engage the German battlefleet with an advantage, possibly not even with parity.

That's only assuming the British would not follow on. Britain was already in the process of re-arming before war broke out and, if we're attempting to project German war capacity five years later, we also have to attempt to project British war capacity five years later. Any fulfillment of Plan Z would most likely shock the Royal Navy into action and, though it might close the gap between the two significantly, there's no doubt that Britain would at least attempt to match German naval production - Even if it came at the cost of our land and air forces, the main objective after France's fall was to keep our Atlantic trade routes open at all costs and maintain the ability to fight outside of Europe.

[Grenartia]

It occurs to me that the only way you could plausibly get Nazi Germany to not be wiped out at the cessation of hostilities is if the Third Reich somehow sued the Western Allies for peace and gave massive concessions in exchange for protection from annihilation by the Soviets.

Of course, this would probably only lead to a much more intense Cold War (one which very well could've gone nuclear).

Some arguments I've seen is that Germany went to war five years early, if it had waited then maybe it would've had a modern navy capable of taking on the Royal Navy somewhere approaching equal footing. The other argument I've seen is that the Germans should've just focused on turning out Panzers by the bucket load (much like the Allied Sherman and Soviet T-34) rather than waste their resources on building 'big' tanks that didn't have such a good battlefield performance.

If they waited 5 years, they might've also gotten a massive lead in developing, creating, and deploying jet aircraft.

I only know what 5th one is, and I've got a good guess what the 3rd is.

3rd is a Harrier. Coincidentally, mom and I watched True Lies last night, and mom seems utterly convinced that the Harrier in question would've "exploded" due to "crashing" (really more of an aggressive bumping, if that) into the office window. She says that every damn time we watch the movie, and every damn time, I have to tell her its not moving fast enough, and that tail is not made out of explodium. There's a few things about that entire Harrier scene which miss the mark, but that is not one of them.

5th is obviously the Mk V Spit. Nice lens flare all over the glorious details, though. I mean, seriously, I haven't seen lens flare that aggressive since the first Abramsverse Trek movie.

1. Avro Vulcan
2. Avro Lancaster
3. Blackburn Buccaneer
4. Messerschmitt Bf.109F
5. Spitfire Mk. Vc
6. AgustaWestland AW101 "Merlin"

And yeah, sorry about the lens flare. Had five minutes spare at this event, before I had to get back to the aircraft I was looking after (Merlin). Made a flying (geddit?) visit around the aircraft I wanted to see, couldn't stay for very long.

Hey, I totally understand.

And that angular canopy should've been a dead giveaway for the Messerschmitt.

Some arguments I've seen is that Germany went to war five years early, if it had waited then maybe it would've had a modern navy capable of taking on the Royal Navy somewhere approaching equal footing. The other argument I've seen is that the Germans should've just focused on turning out Panzers by the bucket load (much like the Allied Sherman and Soviet T-34) rather than waste their resources on building 'big' tanks that didn't have such a good battlefield performance.

The Germans definitely weren't ready for war in '39. I doubt they'd have ever matched the Royal Navy, at least for experience even if they could build an equivalent fleet, but with five more years Germany would be far better prepared. Even then I can't see a German victory against the Soviets, especially if they continued their failed tank exploits with heavier machines, but closer alignment with the USSR might've allowed the Germans to force the allies to some kind of peace after the fall of continental Europe.

See, I don't think Nazi Germany could've made any sort of lasting alliance with the USSR. Even long enough to win against the Western Allies. The racial rhetoric and anti-communist rhetoric would've prevented that, as would Stalin's own expansionist tendencies. The Nazis' best bet would've been aligning with the Western Allies and making massive concessions (probably conceding France back to the French, and paying pretty significant reparations), in exchange for the Western Allies helping to hold off the Soviets.

[Goram]

To be fair, if (theoretically) the Germans had been able to build the ships that Plan Z called for, the the Royal Navy would have been in serious, serious trouble. It would not have been able to engage the German battlefleet with an advantage, possibly not even with parity.

That's only assuming the British would not follow on. Britain was already in the process of re-arming before war broke out and, if we're attempting to project German war capacity five years later, we also have to attempt to project British war capacity five years later. Any fulfillment of Plan Z would most likely shock the Royal Navy into action and, though it might close the gap between the two significantly, there's no doubt that Britain would at least attempt to match German naval production - Even if it came at the cost of our land and air forces, the main objective after France's fall was to keep our Atlantic trade routes open at all costs and maintain the ability to fight outside of Europe.

Yes, I was thinking that myself.

You could probably assume that Britain would have decided to ignore the terms of the Washington Treaty and possibly revive the N3 Battleship and G3 Battlecruiser programs, along with acceleration of the Lion Class. Along with the RL KGV's, that would have given the Royal Navy at least thirteen relatively modern vessels. Combined with eight (I think) super dreadnoughts of the Revenge and Queen Elizabeth Class. But you've got to ask where the money to build those ships is coming from. Virtually no one, outside of the Royal Navy, was terribly keen on increasing naval expenditure during the interwar period - that was one of the major reasons as to why the British accepted the Washington Treaty's capital ship limitations in the first place. It's also worth considering the rise of strategic air power in Britain. The Navy had to compete with the RAF for what money there was. It seems possible that the RAF would have been able to convince whatever Ministry that it was more capable of defending Britain against a German fleet than the Navy was, given the prevalence towards bombing at the time. It's entirely possible that it would not have been feasible or realistic for the Royal Navy to match the Kreigsmarine blow for blow.

If the British had been able to match the Germans ship for ship, or maintain a numbers advantage, the fleet would have to have been concentrated at Scapa - a la the Grand Fleet - in order to be able to counter any German fleet that came out. This raises problems elsewhere. It means there would have been very few vessels for the Mediterranean or Pacific theatres. This wasn't a problem during the Great War as only Germany had a navy worth mentioning and when ships were needed in the Med, it was usually for shore bombardment or to guard against a singular German battlecruiser, attempting to break out of Constantinople. This could be and was left to pre-dreadnoughts, the oldest battlecruisers (though HMS Queen Elizabeth was at Gallipoli for a time) in the fleet. In other words, those not suited to a Grand Fleet action. That was not so during the second war. Despite the reputation the Italians have earned, the Regia Marina was no joke. Nor was the Imperial Japanese Navy. Old ships with cut rate crews would not have sufficed (not that Britain really had any left, her pre-dreadnought and most of her dreadnought fleet having been scrapped) and there would have been no super-dreadnoughts or modern capital ships available to protect British interests from the Italians or Japanese. Even as it actually was, the Royal Navy wasn't enough to maintain adequate fleets in the North Atlantic, Med and Far East. I don't see how they would have managed it whilst being faced down by a sizeable German force.

The fulfilment of Plan Z would have been catastrophic for the Allied cause. The Allies would probably have lost maritime superiority in the Atlantic and with the war could have been lost as well. It doesn't seem too much of a stretch from there to see Germany forcing Britain to sign a favourable peace treaty, thus taking them out of the war.

Braces for Tiger's inevitable assault on this post...

[The Tiger Kingdom]

It occurs to me that the only way you could plausibly get Nazi Germany to not be wiped out at the cessation of hostilities is if the Third Reich somehow sued the Western Allies for peace and gave massive concessions in exchange for protection from annihilation by the Soviets.
Of course, this would probably only lead to a much more intense Cold War (one which very well could've gone nuclear).

That generally is the most plausible axis of deviation. Germany waiting for another five years is another, but that's a bit more problematic given how much longer the German economy could've sustained being on a war footing without actually...you know...fighting a war.

Ooh, Mein Fuhrer, you've Focke-Wulfed me right in my Goebbels!

Don't make me restart the VampCalibur Universe.

Is it ironic that he played a 4F in Its A Wonderful Life?

I don't know if it's ironic, but it's a nice little subversion of the usual Hollywood "kept out of combat 'cuz of convenient injury/importance to the home front" narrative.

The other argument I've seen is that the Germans should've just focused on turning out Panzers by the bucket load (much like the Allied Sherman and Soviet T-34) rather than waste their resources on building 'big' tanks that didn't have such a good battlefield performance.

This is a pretty key part of the narrative. Once the T-34 hit the scene, the German tank crews were pretty unanimous in that what they wanted was their own version of the thing - they wanted a good all-around tank that could do pretty much anything asked of it. But Hitler was so personally wrapped up in his insane conceptions of how the battlefield worked that he insisted on having a tiny number of unreliable monster tanks that would win against anything else in a straight one-on-one fight, but had such crippling flaws that it just couldn't close the disparity. To say nothing of the fact that they were all slow, unreliable gas-guzzlers.
It's also worth pointing out that even this might not have solved the German logistical issues with actually being able to maintain tanks. The ratio of spare-Sherman-parts-to-actual-complete-Shermans produced was something like four to one, giving the Allies a nice surplus of parts if a tank broke down.
The ratio for Tigers was something like .5 to one, making absolutely sure that when a Tiger broke down (which, of course, happened a lot), it was going to be years before it could actually be fixed.

Hey Len...uh...I couldn't help but notice that you never publicly admitted I was right about the whole mortar thing.
If you could do that for me, that would be great.

Tigger was probably correct about the mortar thing

Sigged!

To be fair, if (theoretically) the Germans had been able to build the ships that Plan Z called for, the the Royal Navy would have been in serious, serious trouble. It would not have been able to engage the German battlefleet with an advantage, possibly not even with parity.

Plan Z always seemed like science-fiction to me, especially in light of how much resources such a program would require given what Germany had access to. Either it would be done during peacetime, in which they could build those ships without outside interference but wouldn't have acess to the necessary resources, or it would be done during wartime, which might give them access to the resources but it wouldn't stand up to the economic strain and the bombing. Neither way seems to work.
For the purposes of historical comparison, it's interesting to contrast the Z Plan with the Imperial German naval buildup pre-WW1. Even in a friendly, much less dangerous political environment, it took twenty years to construct the Hochseeflotte to the point where it was a regional power - and even then, traditional German naval conservatism kept the fleet confined.
The German Navy was always at its best as a raiding fleet - when they actually had a battlefleet that could at least challenge the RN regionally, they were so scared of losing it that they never used it except a handful of times.

To be fair, if (theoretically) the Germans had been able to build the ships that Plan Z called for, the the Royal Navy would have been in serious, serious trouble. It would not have been able to engage the German battlefleet with an advantage, possibly not even with parity.

That's only assuming the British would not follow on. Britain was already in the process of re-arming before war broke out and, if we're attempting to project German war capacity five years later, we also have to attempt to project British war capacity five years later.

A factor many, many people seem to forget.

Any fulfillment of Plan Z would most likely shock the Royal Navy into action and, though it might close the gap between the two significantly, there's no doubt that Britain would at least attempt to match German naval production - Even if it came at the cost of our land and air forces, the main objective after France's fall was to keep our Atlantic trade routes open at all costs and maintain the ability to fight outside of Europe.

Again going back to the Imperial German buildup of 1905-14, the supposed German play for naval supremacy absolutely terrified Britain. They vastly amped up dreadnaught construction, practically doubling the schedule to produce eight where previously only four had been signed off on.
I think such a naked German grab for a huge fleet would certainly inspire Britain to try and match them - it might have even forced a pre-emptive war to stop the program's completion.

But you've got to ask where the money to build those ships is coming from.

Believe me - governments believing themselves in existential danger will ALWAYS find the money, somehow.
It's a truism throughout history.

Virtually no one, outside of the Royal Navy, was terribly keen on increasing naval expenditure during the interwar period - that was one of the major reasons as to why the British accepted the Washington Treaty's capital ship limitations in the first place.

An agreement that was signed, mind you, in 1922, when Britain could seriously say that they had no enemies left in the world (save perhaps for the nascent USSR, which didn't really have a navy yet). Germany was still under Versailles, Japan was almost a full ally, and the Fascists had yet to become a real threat.
I would think that when enemies began to present themselves, either through invading neighboring countries or trying to resurrect the High Seas Fleet, this position would change very fast - and indeed, towards the end of the interwar period, it more or less did.

It's also worth considering the rise of strategic air power in Britain. The Navy had to compete with the RAF for what money there was. It seems possible that the RAF would have been able to convince whatever Ministry that it was more capable of defending Britain against a German fleet than the Navy was, given the prevalence towards bombing at the time. It's entirely possible that it would not have been feasible or realistic for the Royal Navy to match the Kreigsmarine blow for blow.

This is also an interesting point to make - the existence of the RAF as a major funding rival for the Army and Navy wasn't a factor back in my example. Given the fact that most of the RAF's pre-war theories about strategic warfare and the supremacy of the bomber arm were wildly premature at best and horrifically off-base at worst, you might even argue that any pounds spent on the RAF were pounds wasted for the purpose of matching the Z Plan.
I don't really believe this example, though. I think that were Britain presented with an existential challenge on a naval basis, the most likely assumption to make would be that Britain would try to respond - when it responded - with a naval counteraction, matching ship for ship rather than ship for every hundred planes or whatever.
For all that anti-spending sentiment, people still wanted the Royal Navy to be the strongest in the world. Abdicating that in peacetime in service of a pack of theories that had never been proven wouldn't have sat well with the public, I would think - regardless of how many faked Mitchell tests the RAF wanted to show to the public.

If the British had been able to match the Germans ship for ship, or maintain a numbers advantage, the fleet would have to have been concentrated at Scapa - a la the Grand Fleet - in order to be able to counter any German fleet that came out.

Assuming that parity was lost, mind you.

That was not so during the second war. Despite the reputation the Italians have earned, the Regia Marina was no joke.

Indeed it wasn't, but it also wasn't exactly a given that the Italians would come in.

Nor was the Imperial Japanese Navy. Old ships with cut rate crews would not have sufficed (not that Britain really had any left, her pre-dreadnought and most of her dreadnought fleet having been scrapped) and there would have been no super-dreadnoughts or modern capital ships available to protect British interests from the Italians or Japanese. Even as it actually was, the Royal Navy wasn't enough to maintain adequate fleets in the North Atlantic, Med and Far East. I don't see how they would have managed it whilst being faced down by a sizeable German force.

As I mentioned above, I think this only holds up if you stick to worst-case scenarios - IE total stagnation of the Royal Navy, which I just don't believe would occur.

The fulfilment of Plan Z would have been catastrophic for the Allied cause.

Thankfully, given the standard pattern (both historical and 1930s contemporary) of German industrial progress, it probably would have taken 15 to 20 years to complete - and likely would have faced truly monumental opposition from various other branches of the German armed forces the entire way through, including possibly elements from within the Navy itself.
I'm still not entirely convinced Germany could have funded such an endeavor at all even in peacetime, frankly - especially when the Army and Luftwaffe already had such primacy for funding. The Royal Navy had to fight to be top dog when it came to money - the Kriegsmarine basically had to accept that it would permanently be at the bottom of the heap.

The Allies would probably have lost maritime superiority in the Atlantic and with the war could have been lost as well. It doesn't seem too much of a stretch from there to see Germany forcing Britain to sign a favourable peace treaty, thus taking them out of the war.

Braces for Tiger's inevitable assault on this post...

COORDINATES LOCKED IN
TARGET CONFIRMED FOR HIGH EXPLOSIVE
FIRE FOR EFFECT

[Monfrox]

Don't make me restart the VampCalibur Universe.

You won't do it.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Don't make me restart the VampCalibur Universe.

You won't do it.

I don't have time, honestly.
Besides, without the prime engine of Page/Ali angst propelling the universe, I'd actually have to rely on...hell, I don't even know what?

[Monfrox]

You won't do it.

I don't have time, honestly.
Besides, without the prime engine of Page/Ali angst propelling the universe, I'd actually have to rely on...hell, I don't even know what?

Idk but reverse psychology ain't what it used to be, I guess.

[Grenartia]

I don't have time, honestly.
Besides, without the prime engine of Page/Ali angst propelling the universe, I'd actually have to rely on...hell, I don't even know what?

Idk but reverse psychology ain't what it used to be, I guess.

In the meantime, have more terrible German innuendo.

Panzerfaust me like your little whore! Ach mein Gott, it feels so Goring!

[The Two Jerseys]

We're still talking about that Nazirotica from Decius?

That's only assuming the British would not follow on. Britain was already in the process of re-arming before war broke out and, if we're attempting to project German war capacity five years later, we also have to attempt to project British war capacity five years later.

A factor many, many people seem to forget.

If the Germans could build all the stuff they had in his delusional fantasy, by that logic the USAAF would be using thousands of brand-new B-36s for Operation Aphrodite because they fucking could.

Is it ironic that he played a 4F in Its A Wonderful Life?

I don't know if it's ironic, but it's a nice little subversion of the usual Hollywood "kept out of combat 'cuz of convenient injury/importance to the home front" narrative.

Better than Clark Gable trying to get himself killed in action.

[Morrdh]

If they waited 5 years, they might've also gotten a massive lead in developing, creating, and deploying jet aircraft.

Frank Whittle had been developing the turbojet during the 1930s and he received a boost from the Air Ministry when it brought his project in June 1939, it led to the first British jet (the Gloster Whittle) flying in May 1941 and then eventually the Gloster Meteor.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

We're still talking about that Nazirotica from Decius?

Well, now we're moving onto GOram and Morrdh's hypothetical suppositions for more plausible means to a German victory - or, at least, the survival of the regime somehow.

A factor many, many people seem to forget.

If the Germans could build all the stuff they had in his delusional fantasy, by that logic the USAAF would be using thousands of brand-new B-36s for Operation Aphrodite because they fucking could.

I restate my point about how the quite-possibly-unintended message of all this Nazirotica is that every single Allied citizen on every level was mouth-breathingly stupid.
The best analogue I can find was that his entire diatribe was more or less like reading the record of somebody playing Hearts of Iron with the other side's AI turned off or absent entirely.

I don't know if it's ironic, but it's a nice little subversion of the usual Hollywood "kept out of combat 'cuz of convenient injury/importance to the home front" narrative.

Better than Clark Gable trying to get himself killed in action.

I never heard about that, but I guess given how broken up he was over Carole Lombard's death, it makes sense.
Good thing he didn't manage to follow through.

[The Two Jerseys]

Better than Clark Gable trying to get himself killed in action.

I never heard about that, but I guess given how broken up he was over Carole Lombard's death, it makes sense.
Good thing he didn't manage to follow through.

Well, not so much "trying" to get killed as "frankly won't give a damn" if he gets killed.