[P2TM Chat] The Restaurant at the End of the Multiverse II

[Constaniana]

The forum lives!

[Altito Asmoro]

The forum lives!

It died a while ago.

Did we sacrificed someone to revived the forum?

[G-Tech Corporation]

The forum lives!

It died a while ago.

Did we sacrificed someone to revived the forum?

Yep, had to do it by Mod fiat. Some chap named Altito Asmo..

Oh, erm.

I guess now I believe in ghosts and their ability to use keyboards.

[Landenburg]

It'd be really cool if something like this happened on or right before Halloween

Kinda like the death of a human and then the Resurrection to become a zombie

[The Grey Wolf]

oh good god no

Anyway, I suppose I should know who Chris Kyle is.

Sniper with most kills in US Military history. Recently became subject of a Clint Eastwood film. Shitstorm wether the film is pro or anti-war, and on wether Kyle was a star spangled patriot or a deeply troubled man.

Why not both? Classical literature is filled with men who were badass soldiers yet totally messed up morally in their personal lives (Achilles, Agamemnon, etc.) when did the West suddenly demand our heroes become enlightened harbringers of peace and flowers?

[Occupied Deutschland]

I'm talking about the people who say it's pro-war or Chis is a psychopath etc etc.

I feel like I was the only one who came out of their feeling anti-war and seeing how messed up Chris was.

For the moment, I'll just say that Chris Kyle was extraordinarily lucky that the government offered him a way to go out and legally kill people.
Because otherwise, I am positive he'd have gone out and killed people illegally.

This is a possibility. A distinct one, even. Particularly with the real-life Kyle as opposed to the fictionalized movie Kyle. Though I wouldn't say certain (see below).

I'm talking about the people who say it's pro-war or Chis is a psychopath etc etc.

I feel like I was the only one who came out of their feeling anti-war and seeing how messed up Chris was.

I think that latter feeling was part of the point. Irrespective of Kyle's real-life mental status, the movie seemed to be deliberately pointing towards the mindset that produced a 'warrior' mentality in the amalgam-character Kyle turned into, and whether or not that qualified as 'messed up' or not. In fact, I've mentioned this before, but the movie felt like a video-rendition of 'On Killing' and 'On Combat' by Dave Grossman (not a psychologist, but a retired soldier), two books that discussed at length the mindset needed to kill another person and the training strategies and such that military and police organizations adopted (or could adopt or change) that would contribute to that capability, pointing to the famous '90% of soldiers deliberately aim to miss in combat' study that was done in the Vietnam era.

If I remember correctly, Grossman specifically talks about a subset of people being significantly more mentally capable of killing another person even without such training procedures or 'coping' techniques as he talked about, though I don't recall the specifics of what he said about them (I believe he deliberately distinguished them from psychopaths via their ability to care about the protection of others, their capability to apply morality to their ability to kill). In fact, the portrayed 'Sheep, sheepdog, wolves' speech Kyle's father makes in the movie is ripped straight from On Combat, and I'm certain the screenwriter did so deliberately.

Of course, Grossman isn't a psychologist and such folks could well be psychopathic (as one could very easily see Kyle as being even in the movie, and even more easily in real-life), that's a rather interesting discussion one could get into. Is the innate capability to kill another person and remain mentally balanced so uncommon and require such a different mental mindset that such people who can do so are automatically outside the 'norm', or does the capability to teach such behavior into others who don't have such an innate ability mean it is the result of something else, the product of a certain set of values and lessons learned by some and not others?
It could get really interesting if one cared to follow that line of reasoning back into the movie and consider the 'bad-guy' sniper Mustafa that is set-up as Kyle's antithesis and what makes him different. Unlike someone like, say, the nutbar who drills holes into people, Mustafa isn't portrayed as someone who kills for pleasure or who has been so extremified he can justify any act of violence done in the name of the 'greater good'. He's very clearly portrayed as practically a mirror-image version of Kyle, killing the soldiers of the invading force, and them only, presumably out of a desire to protect others from those Americans & others who are causing so much violence and terror (not to mention Kyle had his start as a military sniper with the bombings of US bases overseas, Mustafa had his start with the invasion of Iraq).

I think then most absurd thing about all of that is that he eventually got murdered.

In retrospect, I personally don't think it was absurd - I think it was just sickeningly predictable.
You take three guys to a gun range, at least two of whom are suffering from significant PTSD symptoms? It doesn't take hindsight to think something's going to go wrong somewhere.
How could anyone have thought that was a good idea?

I don't want to start an argument, so I'll keep this to a very bare-bones answer of the question. Violence rates for people with PTSD aren't significantly greater than those in the general population (around 10% higher), that difference drops further when substance abuse and other correlative risk factors are controlled for. Social isolation and feelings of not belonging to anything or having lost pastimes and such one used to enjoy are some of those correlative risk factors. Going out shooting with other people at a gun range eases that social isolation and reinstates a pastime that the PTSD sufferer may well have enjoyed and then 'lost' in part due to his relation of it with his experiences or basic depression/isolation from his condition. Replacing such negative experience with positive ones shooting paper targets and clay pidgeons, particularly in an environment that is going to be much more easy to go to than a psychologist's office or such, and getting the support of other veterans who may also be shooting with the PTSD sufferer without the 'spectacle' of going to a formal counseling session for people with PTSD is going to be beneficial and could encourage the person to get professional help (if needed. It could also be beneficial enough to prevent the slide into depression/isolation/suicide that occurs). There is a resistance to taking advice from, or even going to see, a psychologist for many veterans and hearing the Vietnam veteran, or the Gulf War I veteran, or the other Afghanistan-Iraq-etc. veteran at the gun range urge him towards it, or mention how it wasn't to be feared, or even just comment about their experiences themselves in the war, can contribute to a much more serious contemplation of actually going to get help and/or a lower likelihood of falling into the trap of depression and isolation many veterans can get into.

This is, of course, much more true about Texas and other rural 'flyover' state veterans than the veteran from New Jersey. Firearms and hunting are a much more integral part of the culture and getting veterans back into those activities can be an enormous help in preventing them from feeling like they're so removed from the general society and don't belong.

[The Grey Wolf]

Agri humiliates himself with a mic.

Warning: LOUD AS FUCK. Shit singing.

Unfortunately I am on a shitty tablet at the moment (thing was awesome back when I got it, now not so much). So I shall listen and laugh later.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Sniper with most kills in US Military history. Recently became subject of a Clint Eastwood film. Shitstorm wether the film is pro or anti-war, and on wether Kyle was a star spangled patriot or a deeply troubled man.

Why not both? Classical literature is filled with men who were badass soldiers yet totally messed up morally in their personal lives (Achilles, Agamemnon, etc.) when did the West suddenly demand our heroes become enlightened harbringers of peace and flowers?

I think Kyle's interesting because his story so clearly puts the lie to the "if you're a soldier, you're AUTOMATICALLY A KNIGHT IN SHINING ARMOR" narrative we've been drenched in for the last decade and a half.
He was maybe one of the best pure killers in the entire special forces community. He sure seemed brave, and he did a lot of charity work for his fellow SEALs when he came back - from that perspective, he's frankly the media's perfect conception of a "hero".

But he also was (as far as anyone can tell) a viciously bigoted, relentlessly self-mythologizing sociopath who had to make up stories about how many people he killed, because the huge number of actual people he shot evidently didn't satisfy him. He openly admitted that he got a huge kick out of the act of killing people, had delusions of being a "modern Crusader", and also admitted to doing all sorts of sordid shit like looting bodies, etc.
It's not that he was the only guy doing that, but the fact that he so openly and remorselessly admitted to it is pretty screwed up.

To me, he wasn't a hero. He was just a very, very skilled killer who managed to get into a line of work that not only allowed him to kill people in huge numbers, but lionized him for it. I don't find that heroic.

I think that latter feeling was part of the point. Irrespective of Kyle's real-life mental status, the movie seemed to be deliberately pointing towards the mindset that produced a 'warrior' mentality in the amalgam-character Kyle turned into, and whether or not that qualified as 'messed up' or not. In fact, I've mentioned this before, but the movie felt like a video-rendition of 'On Killing' and 'On Combat' by Dave Grossman (not a psychologist, but a retired soldier), two books that discussed at length the mindset needed to kill another person and the training strategies and such that military and police organizations adopted (or could adopt or change) that would contribute to that capability, pointing to the famous '90% of soldiers deliberately aim to miss in combat' study that was done in the Vietnam era.

I should probably read...at least one of those books.
*sighs, adds to way-too-long reading list*

If I remember correctly, Grossman specifically talks about a subset of people being significantly more mentally capable of killing another person even without such training procedures or 'coping' techniques as he talked about, though I don't recall the specifics of what he said about them (I believe he deliberately distinguished them from psychopaths via their ability to care about the protection of others, their capability to apply morality to their ability to kill).

I think that's an interesting theory, but I don't think Kyle fits into that. He openly admitted that he wanted to fight a holy war against all Muslims, everywhere - "to do in America what he did in Iraq", as he was quoted. Plus, there's the ridiculous story about him murdering 30 looters in New Orleans, which aside from the fact that it's almost certainly made-up, speaks volumes about the fact that Kyle evidently thought that murdering US citizens in cold blood on his own authority was a fine punishment for robbery.
He clearly had strong connections to his fellow SEALs, but I don't think that proves anything. I don't see much evidence of any kind of "application of morality" there.

In fact, the portrayed 'Sheep, sheepdog, wolves' speech Kyle's father makes in the movie is ripped straight from On Combat, and I'm certain the screenwriter did so deliberately.
Of course, Grossman isn't a psychologist and such folks could well be psychopathic (as one could very easily see Kyle as being even in the movie, and even more easily in real-life), that's a rather interesting discussion one could get into. Is the innate capability to kill another person and remain mentally balanced so uncommon and require such a different mental mindset that such people who can do so are automatically outside the 'norm', or does the capability to teach such behavior into others who don't have such an innate ability mean it is the result of something else, the product of a certain set of values and lessons learned by some and not others?

I see it the other way around - Kyle wasn't a killer who remained mentally balanced, it was that his existing mental imbalances allowed him to kill in huge numbers, sans remorse or any moral application (at least any recognizable morality I could understand).

I don't want to start an argument, so I'll keep this to a very bare-bones answer of the question. Violence rates for people with PTSD aren't significantly greater than those in the general population (around 10% higher), that difference drops further when substance abuse and other correlative risk factors are controlled for. Social isolation and feelings of not belonging to anything or having lost pastimes and such one used to enjoy are some of those correlative risk factors. Going out shooting with other people at a gun range eases that social isolation and reinstates a pastime that the PTSD sufferer may well have enjoyed and then 'lost' in part due to his relation of it with his experiences or basic depression/isolation from his condition.

I can understand that reasoning, but these guys were not standard PTSD sufferers - they were more or less the most dangerous people in America, who had been through unbelievable shit. Coupled with Kyle's own preexisting mental problems (my own hypothesis), I think you can argue that they definitely trended towards the more extreme end of the spectrum.

Replacing such negative experience with positive ones shooting paper targets and clay pidgeons, particularly in an environment that is going to be much more easy to go to than a psychologist's office or such, and getting the support of other veterans who may also be shooting with the PTSD sufferer without the 'spectacle' of going to a formal counseling session for people with PTSD is going to be beneficial and could encourage the person to get professional help (if needed. It could also be beneficial enough to prevent the slide into depression/isolation/suicide that occurs). There is a resistance to taking advice from, or even going to see, a psychologist for many veterans and hearing the Vietnam veteran, or the Gulf War I veteran, or the other Afghanistan-Iraq-etc. veteran at the gun range urge him towards it, or mention how it wasn't to be feared, or even just comment about their experiences themselves in the war, can contribute to a much more serious contemplation of actually going to get help and/or a lower likelihood of falling into the trap of depression and isolation many veterans can get into.

QUIT BEING RATIONAL DAMMIT

This is, of course, much more true about Texas and other rural 'flyover' state veterans than the veteran from New Jersey. Firearms and hunting are a much more integral part of the culture and getting veterans back into those activities can be an enormous help in preventing them from feeling like they're so removed from the general society and don't belong.

Maybe it was unfair for me to totally condemn it - you make a good point - but it just seems so risky in retrospect.
I mean, come on, guys, you can do other things besides shoot stuff, you know?

[Nature-Spirits]

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0AA1QZn6n4c

Nominations included!

Your voice has a lower pitch than I expected.

I'll get on that recording sometime soon.

[G-Tech Corporation]

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0AA1QZn6n4c

Nominations included!

Your voice has a lower pitch than I expected.

I'll get on that recording sometime soon.

I concur with N-S. Also, dat accent is great.

[Agritum]

Your voice has a lower pitch than I expected.

I'll get on that recording sometime soon.

I concur with N-S. Also, dat accent is great.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0746A6fLbYp

Yes, I sound kinda low for a 17 year old.

[Nature-Spirits]

I concur with N-S. Also, dat accent is great.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0746A6fLbYp

Yes, I sound kinda low for a 17 year old.

Aw, don't fret too much. Your accent's cute.

[Agritum]

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0746A6fLbYp

Yes, I sound kinda low for a 17 year old.

Aw, don't fret too much. Your accent's cute.

I can read you the first stanza of the Divine Comedy in Italian. My Italian is probably much cuter.

[Agritum]

Aw, don't fret too much. Your accent's cute.

I can read you the first stanza of the Divine Comedy in Italian. My Italian is probably much cuter.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1AtEQD2efr4

And here it comes.

[The Armed Republic of Dutch Coolness]

Can we just rename the thread to "Agri posts links to his voice [C&C Welcome!]"?

[Agritum]

Can we just rename the thread to "Agri posts links to his voice [C&C Welcome!]"?

Also add "Agri does humiliating karaoke".

[The Armed Republic of Dutch Coolness]

Can we just rename the thread to "Agri posts links to his voice [C&C Welcome!]"?

Also add "Agri does humiliating karaoke".

Still a link to your voice.

[Nightkill the Emperor]

I'm just waiting for the PG-13 sex tape.

[G-Tech Corporation]

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0746A6fLbYp

Yes, I sound kinda low for a 17 year old.

Strangely enough, you sound like a Swede I know.

[Agritum]

I'm just waiting for the PG-13 sex tape.

Tell me some Bollywood song to karaoke.

[Agritum]

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0746A6fLbYp

Yes, I sound kinda low for a 17 year old.

Strangely enough, you sound like a Swede I know.

Twist: I'm Swedish. Bork.

[Nature-Spirits]

I can read you the first stanza of the Divine Comedy in Italian. My Italian is probably much cuter.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1AtEQD2efr4

And here it comes.

Italian is such a beautiful language.

I'm just waiting for the PG-13 sex tape.

Yes.

[Agritum]

I'll now need Nat Spi doing a sexy French recording.

[Rupudska]

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0AA1QZn6n4c

Nominations included!

Vocaroo wasn't working.

[Agritum]

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0AA1QZn6n4c

Nominations included!

Vocaroo wasn't working.

...you made me melt. No homo, but you sound hot.