NSG Senate Chamber [NSG Senate]

[Lemanrussland]

Do you know how long it takes to make the necessary infrastructure to make Nukes?

A lot longer that you might think.

Not having nukes would leave us at the whim of those nations that do? Im opposed to not having some form of WMD deterrent. Nations could use that fact as leverage to basically get anything they want from Aurentina.

In reality, the world doesn't work like this.

You're not suddenly open to predatory bullying just because you don't have nuclear weapons. Honestly, at this point, the fewer nuclear weapons that exist, the better. MAD doesn't account for irrational, non-state actors. Even if we ignore that threat, over the long term, humanity has a very good chance of destroying itself, or at least setting back our progress by thousands of years. We've come close to doing so multiple times, only since WWII.

[Lemanrussland]

Sorry, Senator. I only caught the end of the conversation. I thought you meant that constructing nuclear infrastructure would be too time consuming and therefore you opposed it.

I meant lets build them already because if we don't it gonna take a long ass time to construct a single nuclear power plant in the middle of a nuclear war.

Nuclear power plants aren't banned by the NPT.

[Free South Califas]

I'd only accept an NPT in a bill which also obliged us and/or the bureaucracy to aggressively push for a world disarmament treaty. I don't like how established nuclear nations get to wave 'non-proliferation' around in one hand as if it is an acceptable end goal, while using the other to slap around nations which make the merest effort to ensure they won't be swallowed up in the next few imperial pushes.

ETA: In a nuclear war scenario, I think we might consider breaking away from anti-nuke treaties during the buildup to that stage of the war.

[Liberated Counties]

However, if Aurentina finds itself pitted against nuclear armed nations with foolish dictators like North Korea, what do we have to stop them from using their own WMD's against us?

[Great Nepal]

Not having nukes would leave us at the whim of those nations that do? Im opposed to not having some form of WMD deterrent. Nations could use that fact as leverage to basically get anything they want from Aurentina.

In reality, the world doesn't work like this.
You're not suddenly open to predatory bullying just because you don't have nuclear weapons. Honestly, at this point, the fewer nuclear weapons that exist, the better.

This, so this. Only 4.6% of the sovereign states in the world has nuclear weapons and I dont think rest of 95.4% is being bulled for not having a weapon whose primary purpose is to cause mass civilian casualties.
Either way, this is neither time nor place for this debate unless NPT ratification somehow got bumped up to number one in queue.

[Free South Califas]

However, if Aurentina finds itself pitted against nuclear armed nations with foolish dictators like North Korea, what do we have to stop them from using their own WMD's against us?

While I support the general idea of standing up to nuclear bullies, Senator, I'm afraid you misunderstand North Korea. Their authoritarian party dictates the government, which dictates the terms of life, but they have a complex political system in which the head of state must appease various factions within his Party which have particular gradients of power and influence. If we want to be safe from North Korea, we need to simply not go on an imperial rampage, IMHO; in any case, we simply need to figure out what political pressures are acting on and within that system and make an appropriate tactical move.

[Great Nepal]

Since there has been no serious debate over Governmental Subdivision Creation, I move to end debate and start voting.

[Jozef van Oostvoorne]

However, if Aurentina finds itself pitted against nuclear armed nations with foolish dictators like North Korea, what do we have to stop them from using their own WMD's against us?

While I support the general idea of standing up to nuclear bullies, Senator, I'm afraid you misunderstand North Korea. Their authoritarian party dictates the government, which dictates the terms of life, but they have a complex political system in which the head of state must appease various factions within his Party which have particular gradients of power and influence. If we want to be safe from North Korea, we need to simply not go on an imperial rampage, IMHO; in any case, we simply need to figure out what political pressures are acting on and within that system and make an appropriate tactical move.

I also doubt North Korea's WMDs (as far as they even exist) are capable of reaching Aurentina. So there really is no reason at all to fear them.

[Free South Califas]

Since there has been no serious debate over Governmental Subdivision Creation, I move to end debate and start voting.

Really? More slander, Senator?

I oppose, as my critique has gone unexamined, and there is a completely necessary motion on the table to remove the redundant judicial part in light of our passage of JA, which we also must deal with first. OOC: See below after spoiler.

While I support the general idea of standing up to nuclear bullies, Senator, I'm afraid you misunderstand North Korea. Their authoritarian party dictates the government, which dictates the terms of life, but they have a complex political system in which the head of state must appease various factions within his Party which have particular gradients of power and influence. If we want to be safe from North Korea, we need to simply not go on an imperial rampage, IMHO; in any case, we simply need to figure out what political pressures are acting on and within that system and make an appropriate tactical move.

I also doubt North Korea's WMDs (as far as they even exist) are capable of reaching Aurentina. So there really is no reason at all to fear them.

Senator van Oostvoorne has an undeniable point here.

Yes, however I move to remove the National Judiciary Act:

1. It would contradict the Judicial Act.
2. The Judicial Act has already passed and we have a functioning judicial system.
3. It's a poor system, which was created to be a provisional system until we had a fully-functioning one. The Judicial Act provides a fully-functioning one.

I second this on the grounds of fundamental philosophical differences with the NJA.

Yes.

Thanks, the following summarizes my office's first published critique of the GSCA.

1. Govermental Subdivision Creation Act
-B. National Census Bureau Establishment Act

III. No one should be punished for merely failing to submit information. That is awfully authoritarian. If they decide not to participate in an NCB survey as such, NCB should find some other way to ascertain their information without violating their privacy, i.e. counting homes and vehicles by canvassing, etc. Additionally, NCB surveys may at any given time lack sufficient technology for people with particular speech disorders or cognitive differences to respond. They should hardly be discriminated against. If NCB fails to reach the people, I suspect that is not often enough the people's fault that we ought to make their lives more difficult with special punitive taxation (or as NCBEA says, 'fined').

C. Commerce Ministry Act

"MANDATES that the Ministry will work...
6.) The cooperation between the businesses and the government through the Ministry of Commerce."
Wait, what does this mean? The MoC can generate any work necessary to help the governnment "cooperate" with "the" businesses? How so? Which businesses?

"GRANTING ...
4.) ...2 weeks of paid vacation"
Per what amount of time? Year? Ever? This could be a loophole that keeps people from getting more than 2 weeks of vacation in their entire employment.

"7.) ...businesses can also be free to recognize or deny recognition of such groups, depending on the working environment of the establishment..."
To what end or degree? What does it entail to freely "deny recognition" to worker unions, associations, and cooperatives? Are private businesses considered separate from cooperative busiensses and allowed to in some meaningful sense "deny recognition" to them?

"ESTABLISHES ... the freedom of the free market from government involvement and control..."

I'm afraid this is ideological nonsense. The market is not and cannot be "free", we regulate it and license businesses to exploit the labor, for potentially unlimited profit, of people who have no choice but to sell it at such wages or embrace poverty. Free market? Pablum! Workers are hardly free to improvise their contributions to society, to charge interest for the labor they spend as they delay consumption opportunities for weeks, etc...

D.Act to Establish a Judicial System

"Defines The Supreme Court...highest Court... no other court of appeals ... Nine Justices ..."

Why merely nine judges to determine the fate of every act in this nation for all time? This was a fundamental flaw of the US system, and I'm disappointed it's being emulated. There ought to be more citizen involvement. The proposal is unacceptable to me based on that part, but I will address the rest if there is any chance that part can move in my direction.

[Great Nepal]

Since there has been no serious debate over Governmental Subdivision Creation, I move to end debate and start voting.

Really? More slander, Senator?

If you believe there is slander there, please contact my lawyers and meet me in court. After which, I will be suing you for frivolous lawsuit.

I oppose, as my critique has gone unexamined, and there is a completely necessary motion on the table to remove the redundant judicial part in light of our passage of JA, which we also must deal with first.

If your critique was unexamined, perhaps it didn't deserve to be examined and the motion has been in table for long time, and hasn't recived enough support and instead senate has gone into debate about nuclear weapons.

[Unicario]

Since there has been no serious debate over Governmental Subdivision Creation, I move to end debate and start voting.

Opposed due to Senator Nepal's refusal to acknowledge that there is criticism.

[Liberated Counties]

However, if Aurentina finds itself pitted against nuclear armed nations with foolish dictators like North Korea, what do we have to stop them from using their own WMD's against us?

While I support the general idea of standing up to nuclear bullies, Senator, I'm afraid you misunderstand North Korea. Their authoritarian party dictates the government, which dictates the terms of life, but they have a complex political system in which the head of state must appease various factions within his Party which have particular gradients of power and influence. If we want to be safe from North Korea, we need to simply not go on an imperial rampage, IMHO; in any case, we simply need to figure out what political pressures are acting on and within that system and make an appropriate tactical move.

Yet senator, don't you see the news? Mister Jim-Kong-il seems to like threatening people with his toys. I fear perhaps a similar, or more aggressive government may one day threaten these lands. While i condemn the offensive use of WMD's, I believe them to be an effective deterrent of war. We need to ensure Aurentina can defend itself.

[Great Nepal]

Since there has been no serious debate over Governmental Subdivision Creation, I move to end debate and start voting.

Opposed due to Senator Nepal's refusal to acknowledge that there is criticism.

Oh, I seriously dont care about the bills however bill have been in chambers for 53 years and what has been discussed or agreed upon here?

[Great Nepal]

While I support the general idea of standing up to nuclear bullies, Senator, I'm afraid you misunderstand North Korea. Their authoritarian party dictates the government, which dictates the terms of life, but they have a complex political system in which the head of state must appease various factions within his Party which have particular gradients of power and influence. If we want to be safe from North Korea, we need to simply not go on an imperial rampage, IMHO; in any case, we simply need to figure out what political pressures are acting on and within that system and make an appropriate tactical move.

Yet senator, don't you see the news? Mister Jim-Kong-il seems to like threatening people with his toys. I fear perhaps a similar, or more aggressive government may one day threaten these lands. While i condemn the offensive use of WMD's, I believe them to be an effective deterrent of war. We need to ensure Aurentina can defend itself.

TAKE THIS DEBATE ABOUT NUKES SOMEWHERE ELSE UNTIL ITS UP FOR DEBATE

[Free South Califas]

Really? More slander, Senator?

If you believe there is slander there, please contact my lawyers and meet me in court. After which, I will be suing you for frivolous lawsuit.

Duly noted, Senator. I hope not to see you there, but it is beginning to look necesary. What a shame that you have decided to spend your voters' taxes in this way.

Let me lay it out for you while I have your attention, Senator. You dismissed my critique as not serious, which is untrue, it is quite serious. So you are either lying in that you didn't bother to find out if I was serious, or you are outright insulting me, and either way, I think you ought to explain your conduct with more than vague legal threats. Hopefully we will not have to go much further than that. We should all be much more respectful to each other than you have been. I would never stoop to such vicious slander when referring to you, and by the way, if you think that is frivolous, I suggest you reread your recent proposal where you clearly referred to my party ("certain individuals") as "stupid" (an open insult) and our democratic proposal as "illegal" (a vicious lie, as there was no law prohibiting it).

Have you even bothered to develop an opinion on the EDA, or do you dismiss our contributions out of hand as some kind of plot?

While I support the general idea of standing up to nuclear bullies, Senator, I'm afraid you misunderstand North Korea. Their authoritarian party dictates the government, which dictates the terms of life, but they have a complex political system in which the head of state must appease various factions within his Party which have particular gradients of power and influence. If we want to be safe from North Korea, we need to simply not go on an imperial rampage, IMHO; in any case, we simply need to figure out what political pressures are acting on and within that system and make an appropriate tactical move.

Yet senator, don't you see the news?

You are insulting my intelligence with this question, Senator. You then simply repeat your prior misunderstanding of what you see on the news. I have looked into the issue more deeply than is required to stare at a screen, and I should hope you would treat my arguments with the accordant respect.

Opposed due to Senator Nepal's refusal to acknowledge that there is criticism.

Oh, I seriously dont care about the bills however bill have been in chambers for 53 years and what has been discussed or agreed upon here?

That's a non sequitur, Senator, which appears to be customary for you.

[Free South Califas]

Opposed due to Senator Nepal's refusal to acknowledge that there is criticism.

Oh, I seriously dont care about the bills however bill have been in chambers for 53 years and what has been discussed or agreed upon here?

So you admit that your problem with my critique is personal and slanderous in nature?

[Great Nepal]

Duly noted, Senator. I hope not to see you there, but it is beginning to look necesary. What a shame that you have decided to spend your voters' taxes in this way.

My constituent's tax money isn't going to be wasted, senator. It is your money that is going to be wasted. Here's a card of my attorney, send him documents for the lawsuit, he will deal with it on my behalf.
I will be glad to meet you in court of law, well not me since I wont be present but my lawyer would certainly enjoy the experience.

Let me lay it out for you while I have your attention, Senator. You dismissed my critique as not serious, which is untrue, it is quite serious. So you are either lying in that you didn't bother to find out if I was serious, or you are outright insulting me, and either way, I think you ought to explain your conduct with more than vague legal threats. Hopefully we will not have to go much further than that. We should all be much more respectful to each other than you have been.

The senate clearly did not think it was serious enough, or we would have decided upon something in 53 hours wouldn't we?

I would never stoop to such vicious slander when referring to you, and by the way, if you think that is frivolous, I suggest you reread your recent proposal where you clearly referred to my party ("certain individuals") as "stupid" (an open insult) and our democratic proposal as "illegal" (a vicious lie, as there was no law prohibiting it).

Oh, your party is called "certain individuals"? Why did I not receive a copy of this memo regarding change of names?

Have you even bothered to develop an opinion on the EDA, or do you dismiss our contributions out of hand as some kind of plot?

It hasn't been presented in coffee shop, so I haven't received a memo. Either way, voting out management without owning shares, unless in case of foreclosure or bankruptcy is a non-starter.

That's a non sequitur, Senator, which appears to be customary for you.

Debate on the bill started at Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:48 am. Now, its Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:22 pm. It has been 53 hours seen debate began as I stated.

[New Zepuha]

Since there has been no serious debate over Governmental Subdivision Creation, I move to end debate and start voting.

I'm going to go ahead and second this. I see no longer the need for a few people to argue to a brick wall. As if 53 hours wasn't enough to accomplish a debate.

[Liberated Counties]

Since there has been no serious debate over Governmental Subdivision Creation, I move to end debate and start voting.

I'm going to go ahead and second this. I see no longer the need for a few people to argue to a brick wall. As if 53 hours wasn't enough to accomplish a debate.

Thirded.

[Oneracon]

I'm going to go ahead and second this. I see no longer the need for a few people to argue to a brick wall. As if 53 hours wasn't enough to accomplish a debate.

Thirded.

Fourthed.

[Free South Califas]

Since there has been no serious debate over Governmental Subdivision Creation, I move to end debate and start voting.

I'm going to go ahead and second this. I see no longer the need for a few people to argue to a brick wall. As if 53 hours wasn't enough to accomplish a debate.

It clearly wasn't. Nobody appeared to have read my office's published critique. If someone disagrees with it, I'd like to hear how I should move in their direction. Of course, if there is enough support to start voting, so be it; in that case I would then be taking my critique to some party whips.

[New Zepuha]

I'm going to go ahead and second this. I see no longer the need for a few people to argue to a brick wall. As if 53 hours wasn't enough to accomplish a debate.

It clearly wasn't. Nobody appeared to have read my office's published critique. If someone disagrees with it, I'd like to hear how I should move in their direction. Of course, if there is enough support to start voting, so be it; in that case I would then be taking my critique to some party whips.

Go right ahead Senator, but some of us would like to get proceedings moving along.

[Fulflood]

I officially submit the Time Zone Act to the queue:

Time Zone Act
Urgency: Yes | Drafted by: James Fulflood (Fulflood, LD) | Sponsors: Jozef van Oostvoorne (Herrebrugh, C), Saul Califas (Free South Califas, C), Joshua Burchett (Oneracon, RG), Great Nepal (CFE), Liberated Counties (CFE)

The Senate of Aurentina recognises that there is no time zone currently in place nationwide, leading to possible confusion if the time throughout the country is not standardised. As such:

Aurentina shall recognise Coordinated Universal Time (from here on known as UTC) as the standard by which time in Aurentina is measured.

The standard time zone throughout the whole of Aurentina will be at UTC+1 hour.

Aurentina shall not observe daylight saving time.

[Fulflood]

I'm going to go ahead and second this. I see no longer the need for a few people to argue to a brick wall. As if 53 hours wasn't enough to accomplish a debate.

It clearly wasn't. Nobody appeared to have read my office's published critique. If someone disagrees with it, I'd like to hear how I should move in their direction. Of course, if there is enough support to start voting, so be it; in that case I would then be taking my critique to some party whips.

I agree with it all pretty much, and think it needs to be sorted out. The best way to do this would be to redraft a tentative version with the minor modifications which you stated above clearly marked, and then to have everyone else approve this.

[Free South Califas]

It clearly wasn't. Nobody appeared to have read my office's published critique. If someone disagrees with it, I'd like to hear how I should move in their direction. Of course, if there is enough support to start voting, so be it; in that case I would then be taking my critique to some party whips.

Go right ahead Senator, but some of us would like to get proceedings moving along.

I can't entirely blame you. It'll be a shame if I have to vote against something so fundamental, but here we are, I suppose.

It clearly wasn't. Nobody appeared to have read my office's published critique. If someone disagrees with it, I'd like to hear how I should move in their direction. Of course, if there is enough support to start voting, so be it; in that case I would then be taking my critique to some party whips.

I agree with it all pretty much, and think it needs to be sorted out. The best way to do this would be to redraft a tentative version with the minor modifications which you stated above clearly marked, and then to have everyone else approve this.

Thanks for your advice and solidarity, Senator. I will set to work on this as soon as I can.

ETA: I have completed this work, and it is up for display at the Coffee Shop.