[DEFEATED] Liberate California

[General Knot]

---

Liberate California

A resolution to strike down Delegate-imposed barriers to free entry in a region.

Category: Liberation | Nominee: California | Proposed by: General Knot

Description: The Security Council:

Illustrating the diverse and distinguished history of the region of California over the past thirteen years;

Noting that, despite having experienced severe adversity in the form of numerous invasions throughout their history by diabolical forces of evil such as DEN and The Invaders, the communities of California have continued to soldier on and maintain an active and impressive regional culture;

Valuing this aforementioned culture far above the self-interests of "defender" groups to "protect" a region by preventing further invasions through the use of an impenetrable wall, which would shut down all culture and activity and effectively obliterate the regional community;

Appalled that the offender militaries of 10000 Islands and Yggdrasil have occupied California via stealth operation in order to begin the process of wall-building without consultation with long-time native residents such as Cleo and Topaz, Allied States of Demokratia, and Neu California;

Determining that such relentless actions would prove to be ultimately detrimental to the maintenance of community, activity, and culture in the region of California;

Exemplifying these "relentless actions" as the massive ongoing occupation and the forcible ejections of well-meaning native nations such as Valistria from California;

Requesting that the Security Council looks past the deceptive word of "defender" and focuses instead on the preservation of flourishing regional communities; thus, hereby liberates California.

---

Real talk here: TITO and YDS (read: miniTITO) have occupied California with the intention of locking the community down with a hidden password and an end goal of eventually refounding anew (read: trophy). I've yet to see a forced defender-refounded region that was brought back to original activity levels by native nations alone (remember Liberal Haven, anyone?). And yes, they've already begun the process by ejecting native nations from the region.

Which side will the Security Council take, the defenders or the natives?

Alright, I'll write a serious one if the SC's serious about not looking at the word "defender" through rose-tinted glasses.

[Pierconium]

It would seem, based on reading this and having no other context, that the so-called 'defenders' are just doing what they claim to stand against. What am I missing here?

Support.

[General Knot]

It would seem, based on reading this and having no other context, that the so-called 'defenders' are just doing what they claim to stand against. What am I missing here?

Support.

You're getting it all. The thing to consider is that while they call themselves "defender", TITO is motivated by its own self-interests. There's been an influence power-vacuum since Luna Amore left California founderless, which means this region, founded in May 2003, is susceptible to an easy lockdown and refound. As an invader, I left the region after a mere three days because I see no need to destroy unoffending communities (unlike St Abbaddon). But anyhow, back to the consideration: there's a substantial reason why the term to describe TITO switched from "hall monitor" to "offender (fenda)" in 2004 - in order to distinguish the real defenders from the "offending" ones who called themselves defender but were not actual defenders.

[Techoligia]

As someone who is from XKI, I can tell this is just someone who doesn't understand TITO or a raider trying to get his region back.

[Cormactopia II]

Unless I hear from TITO some compelling reason for their actions aside from sticking it to raiders at the expense of natives, this has my support.

[Bears Armed]

Speaking as somebody who has (or "had"? I recently moved it back there after the last lot of honest 'raiders' had kicked it out, but haven't checked yet to see whether it's already one of TITO's victims ...) _
WHAT!?!


That behaviour is not "defending".

(What I wanted was for the Mods to install a new Founder chosen by the natives, when Luna Amore left, instead of leaving the place vulnerable to such shennanigans...)

(EdIted only for punctuation.)

[Lord Ravenclaw]

Firstly, I have to ask - can we have some evidence to the claims above?

I did have something different here but after doing some research, I'd like some evidence to back the charges up before I go and make suggestive comments about 10KIs orientation.

[We Are Not the NSA]

Firstly, I have to ask - can we have some evidence to the claims above?

All I need is one of the natives mentioned in the text to post here and I'm convinced.

[Californ-i-ay]

Firstly, I have to ask - can we have some evidence to the claims above?

All I need is one of the natives mentioned in the text to post here and I'm convinced.

(Bears Armed here, again...)

4 days ago, this nation was ejected and banned from California by EarthQuaker.

3 days & 10 hours ago this nation was removed from California's banlist by The Irvine Ranch.

1 day & 13 hours ago this nation received a TG from Goldenson inviting me to move to Safe California while California is refounded,

I don't know anything about the Gameplay affiliations of those various other nations.

[Louisistan]

It comes as absolutely no surprise that now, in a time when raiders have been served numerous defeats at the hand of defenders, they turn to the security council in an attempt to ruin our credibility and reputation. The fact that they have to take cheap shots at defenders, such as referring to the Yggdrasil Defence Service as “miniTITO”, should already display the spirit in which this proposal is presented. It is not concern for the native community of California, but the hopes of tarnishing the reputation of TITO and our allies.

Nonetheless, I will address the contents of the draft, as scarce as they are. Ignoring the fluff, the draft makes only one allegation: That TITO and YDS are installing a password on California without consultation of natives. This is untrue. Discussions with natives have been ongoing for a while now. The nation of Cleo and Topaz has has not been ejected by us. The nation of Allied States of Demokratia has CTEd, as has Neu California. I’m not sure why and how they should have been included in the discussions.

Outside the draft, Knot claims that TITO is trying to claim California as a trophy. This completely ignores the fact that TITO has always returned control of founder nations to members of the native community after a successful refound if there was such a community. Examples include Hogwarts and Deutschland. The notion that TITO would claim active and vibrant regions as trophies like the Black Hawks do and DEN did are completely ignoring historic precedence. The only regions TITO ever took as "trophies" are invader regions. We’ve always been open about that, though and California does not belong in that category.

It is fitting that someone who (judging by his signature) still boasts about the rank he held in an organisation that was deleted and prohibited for repeated rule-breaking behaviour would try to twist facts in an attempt to keep California founderless, so it remains a viable target for future invasions.

Firstly, I have to ask - can we have some evidence to the claims above?

All I need is one of the natives mentioned in the text to post here and I'm convinced.

Would you prefer one of those that have CTEd or the one that's still active?

All I need is one of the natives mentioned in the text to post here and I'm convinced.

(Bears Armed here, again...)

4 days ago, this nation was ejected and banned from California by EarthQuaker.

3 days & 10 hours ago this nation was removed from California's banlist by The Irvine Ranch.

1 day & 13 hours ago this nation received a TG from Goldenson inviting me to move to Safe California while California is refounded,

I don't know anything about the Gameplay affiliations of those various other nations.

Judging from their flag, EarthQuaker is a member of The Invaders.

[Cormactopia II]

Discussions with natives have been ongoing for a while now. The nation of Cleo and Topaz has has not been ejected by us. The nation of Allied States of Demokratia has CTEd, as has Neu California. I’m not sure why and how they should have been included in the discussions.

Let's cut through that wall of text and answer some basic questions:

1. Are you or are you not in the process of re-founding? That wasn't clear from your post.
2. Are there other natives besides the two you mentioned and are you consulting them? It looks like Bears Armed, at least, hasn't been consulted.
3. When you cite Hogwarts as an example of restoring a region to native control, and yet we all know a defender is now the Founder of that region, don't you think maybe this erodes the credibility of what you're saying and might lead some of us to disregard everything else you just said?

[Louisistan]

1. That is because I am neither willing nor authorised to discuss operational details of ongoing TITO operations. I am the WA Delegate and as such not a member of TITO Command.
2. This question should be directed at the Field Commander of TITO.
3. Hogwarts has a vibrant community of over 100 nations, which includes raiders, defenders and people with no R/D stance whatsoever. The player controlling the founder is not a member of TITO and the region cannot be considered a trophy of TITO in any way. I consider it a valid example of a succesful refound. Those who choose to disregard everything else I said because of that one example weren't really inclined to actually consider anything I say, were they?

[General Knot]

Firstly, I have to ask - can we have some evidence to the claims above?

I did have something different here but after doing some research, I'd like some evidence to back the charges up before I go and make suggestive comments about 10KIs orientation.

I'll need to go back and dig up old forums and logs again, but your inquiry will be answered soon. Hopefully I can at least answer a little bit below.

It comes as absolutely no surprise that now, in a time when raiders have been served numerous defeats at the hand of defenders, they turn to the security council in an attempt to ruin our credibility and reputation. The fact that they have to take cheap shots at defenders, such as referring to the Yggdrasil Defence Service as “miniTITO”, should already display the spirit in which this proposal is presented. It is not concern for the native community of California, but the hopes of tarnishing the reputation of TITO and our allies.

I haven't been defeated by defenders in months. And, well, it's not incorrect to say that the YDS is "miniTITO", given Anime Daisuki's distinguished career in 10000 Islands and his foundership of Yggdrasil. Concern for the native community and pointing out the hypocrisy of TITO just happens to fall on the same side.

Nonetheless, I will address the contents of the draft, as scarce as they are. Ignoring the fluff, the draft makes only one allegation: That TITO and YDS are installing a password on California without consultation of natives. This is untrue. Discussions with natives have been ongoing for a while now. The nation of Cleo and Topaz has has not been ejected by us. The nation of Allied States of Demokratia has CTEd, as has Neu California. I’m not sure why and how they should have been included in the discussions.

I think that several of these sentences in your long-winded post can be considered more "fluff" than the content of this proposal. You claim that discussions with natives have been going for a while, but do not further elaborate on this statement. I'll help you: the "native" you've been discussing the prospect with is Goldenson, who has only been in California for a mere couple months and should not be held as the executive decision-maker of the region. Let me repeat, one "native" gave the go-ahead for TITO to come in and destroy. The above nations are included in this discussion because these are the natives you need to be contacting before strong-arming the region into a password so that TITO doesn't have to suffer another embarrassment in California.

Outside the draft, Knot claims that TITO is trying to claim California as a trophy. This completely ignores the fact that TITO has always returned control of founder nations to members of the native community after a successful refound if there was such a community. Examples include Hogwarts and Deutschland. The notion that TITO would claim active and vibrant regions as trophies like the Black Hawks do and DEN did are completely ignoring historic precedence. The only regions TITO ever took as "trophies" are invader regions. We’ve always been open about that, though and California does not belong in that category.

Hogwarts... returned to natives? There were no natives until other defenders took over to establish a roleplaying community - that doesn't count. If I remember correctly, Escanaba of TITO continues to control the founder nation of Hogwarts.What about Liberal Haven? There are natives, such as this one, expressing their disgust at how the "defender" founder never lifts a finger to help facilitate their regional doings, leading to the eventual demise of their community.

It is fitting that someone who (judging by his signature) still boasts about the rank he held in an organisation that was deleted and prohibited for repeated rule-breaking behaviour would try to twist facts in an attempt to keep California founderless, so it remains a viable target for future invasions.

The ad hominem attacks are not helping, Louis.

All I need is one of the natives mentioned in the text to post here and I'm convinced.

Would you prefer one of those that have CTEd or the one that's still active?

Cleo and Topaz has yet to CTE, and hasn't left since 2010, despite adversity and haphazard activity.

All I need is one of the natives mentioned in the text to post here and I'm convinced.

(Bears Armed here, again...)

4 days ago, this nation was ejected and banned from California by EarthQuaker.

3 days & 10 hours ago this nation was removed from California's banlist by The Irvine Ranch.

1 day & 13 hours ago this nation received a TG from Goldenson inviting me to move to Safe California while California is refounded,

I don't know anything about the Gameplay affiliations of those various other nations.

EarthQuaker is me. Banjections are standard during my occupations, but all natives are free to come back after the three days were over. The Irvine Ranch is the TITO puppet with the most influence in the region, so he's now in the delegacy heading the refound. Goldenson is the "native" nation TITO used to gain permission to refound.

[General Knot]

1. That is because I am neither willing nor authorised to discuss operational details of ongoing TITO operations. I am the WA Delegate and as such not a member of TITO Command.
2. This question should be directed at the Field Commander of TITO.

Alright we get it. You don't know what you're talking about.

3. Hogwarts has a vibrant community of over 100 nations, which includes raiders, defenders and people with no R/D stance whatsoever. The player controlling the founder is not a member of TITO and the region cannot be considered a trophy of TITO in any way. I consider it a valid example of a succesful refound. Those who choose to disregard everything else I said because of that one example weren't really inclined to actually consider anything I say, were they?

Calling out two important members of the roleplaying community, who happen to be raiders, to make your argument look better. Classy.

The "people with no R/D stance whatsoever" are new nations there, thanks to recruitment efforts by Deadeye Jack. Anything else?

[Louisistan]

I'm sure the concept of seperating the duties of the WA Delegate and military commanders is not too hard to understand?

Both Neu California (prior to their cte) and Cleo and Topaz (prior to being pissed off by yet anothet invasion and voluntarily leaving for trr) were part of the discussion.
You were saying?

[General Knot]

I'm sure the concept of seperating the duties of the WA Delegate and military commanders is not too hard to understand?

Of course not. I was just pointing out that your ramblings possibly have no foundation... on anything.

Both Neu California (prior to their cte) and Cleo and Topaz (prior to being pissed off by yet anothet invasion and voluntarily leaving for trr) were part of the discussion.
You were saying?

That's undeniably glib. For all we know, you could've asked "Hey, wanna refound?" and they responded with "I absolutely adore cherry pie." and that was your "discussion". We'd love to get a screenshot of your conversations with these actually-respectable natives, where they gave solid consent for you to help them refound. Details are key friends to the defendant, and the defendant isn't giving much up, whether it be that he doesn't know or doesn't have any evidence.

By the way, I didn't post my first rebuttal for you to ignore. Do you mind reading over it and answering?

[Louisistan]

How about you post some actual evidence that the nations you list have not given their consent? After all, you are the one making the bold claim that they haven't given it. You're calling us the "defendant"? How about innocent until proven guilty then? Cough up your evidence first.

As for your so-called rebuttal, which part do you want me to answer? The one that is absoluteky irrelevant or the one that is only marginally relevant?

[Klopstock]

This is a pretty transparent attempt to keep California helpless and on its knees. I think the very fact that General Knot, a mod-sanctioned former leader of DEN, is proposing the resolution speaks to its credibility. Still, even a questionable proposal needs a response.

Appalled that the [defender] militaries of 10000 Islands and Yggdrasil . . . without consultation with long-time native residents such as Cleo and Topaz, Allied States of Demokratia, and Neu California

Alas, the evidence points the other direction. Neu California's role in the effort is plainly visible on the region's RMB (see http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=18447240 and http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=18377508). He was the one who kicked off the process. And while I won't post private TGs here for invader eyes to pore over, there is more to it than what's on the RMB. His CTE prevents him from coming here and saying so himself.

However, your attempts to hide such evidence from the good people of the Pacific, Osiris, and the rest of the world need to be called out. As you have said already in this thread:

EarthQuaker is me.

Yet you have used EarthQuaker to suppress those two posts of Neu California's cited above. Besides bringing this sham resolution over the objections of those involved, including the region's natives, you have quite brazenly sought to suppress evidence before demanding its production by defenders. Whatever one's stance on the merits of any proposal, surely everyone here can agree that the facts should be allowed to speak for themselves. Resorting to such tactics is beneath the Security Council.

As for the other long-time natives, Cleo and Topaz has been involved in the exchange of communications for some time. I personally have not heard from her since her recent departure for TRR during the last invasion at least. That's been unfortunate, since that nation's regional influence would have proven very useful. She may return still. Or she may yet be another player who, through relentless invasions and griefing of her home region, simply got fed up and left.

Finally, Allied States of Demokratia has CTE'd. He's been gone since the mod action in California, and as far as I know has played no role in regional discussions since that time.

Determining that such relentless actions would prove to be ultimately detrimental to the maintenance of community, activity, and culture in the region of California

My experience has shown the opposite. Sure, many regions that are targeted by invasions and griefed can suffer long-term effects. But good ones pull together to try and improve their fate as well. We're seeing that here. California can determine what is best for California better than General Knot from the Den

I've yet to see a forced defender-refounded region that was brought back to original activity levels by native nations alone,

I'm unaware of any "forced" defender refounds since returning to the game. Save recovering raider trophy regions like Hogwarts. But of course, left unsaid is that such refounds often follow damaging invasions and occupations that prompt natives to take action. Invasions decimate regions -- a refound is often a first step to recovery, but only the first step of a longer journey.

What I have seen is native communities that move to a secure region, beat off an attack, or refound themselves succeed afterward. You were the Governor General and head of the armed forces in Australia until you abandoned that region months back. That's a TITO refound region. The Region That Has No Big Banks is another example of natives taking action on their own after an invasion and occupation, by upping and founding a new, safe region for themselves. There are others too. Korovia is a recently refounded region that TITO helped secure, and it's been moving along quite nicely since.

All I need is one of the natives mentioned in the text to post here and I'm convinced.

Oh? Am I about to discover the identity of some invader sleepers inserted into California? Please go on.

If I remember correctly, Escanaba of TITO continues to control the founder nation of Hogwarts.What about Liberal Haven? There are natives, such as this one, expressing their disgust at how the "defender" founder never lifts a finger to help facilitate their regional doings, leading to the eventual demise of their community.

TITO does not keep trophy regions. Hogwarts was refounded by Escanaba, sure, but the founder nation was turned over to its current holders that same day. And TITO does not control Liberal Haven's founder, and hasn't at least since I've been in TITO.

tl;dr: Honestly, don't you have something better to do with your weekend?

EDIT: Punctuation in the first paragraph.

EDIT 2: I can't believe I said 'pour over'

[Louisistan]

I'd also like to ask General Knot of the DEN where his touching concern for the natives of California was when the forces of DEN themselves occupied and passworded California and reduced the regional population to single-digit numbers. You certainly didn't speak up for the natives then. Oh, I'm sorry, that was of course, as you say, "standard", whereas lending support to natives who want to take back control of their region's destiny is "offending".
And look how cleverly you snuck in DEN and The Invaders into your proposal. Aiming for some cheap publicity points, are we?

[Benevolent Thomas]

Lets not get shit too twisted about Hogwarts. My relationship with Hogwarts dates back to May of 2012, slightly before the creation of Benevolent Thomas and my membership in 10000 Islands and TITO. I remember upon moving there with my nation Ravenclaw House seeing a post by the founder asking if anyone was interested in becoming the region's delegate. Like a noob, I stated my desire to be the region's delegate on the day of my arrival in the region. Needless to say, my offer was declined. Gryff told me that while my enthusiasm was appreciated, there was a chance that I could be an invader looking to do harm to the fledgling region. It was this event along with the destruction of RORMS that saw me enter the gameplay world.

I was still in the region when I was banned by the occupying forces of Dumbledore's Army who were trying to forcibly refound Hogwarts a few years ago. They emptied out the region of its natives, priming it to be taken by Lone Wolves United. Unfortunately, Hogwarts was such a small region then that it did not fall under TITO's requisites for a defense. If I recall correctly, the Dumbledore's Army people may have been out of Versuitian Federation or whatever it is called. LWU captured the region from them and quickly managed to refound it amidst some rather nasty debates in the Security Council and a few pointless Liberation proposals.

I moved both Ravenclaw House and Slytherin House into Hogwarts and patiently waited for an opportunity to get the region back. That chance arrived last summer while I was Vice Delegate of Lazarus. I, one of the only remaining native nations of Hogwarts, worked with players from across defender and independent spheres to recapture Hogwarts and refound it as a roleplaying region. It was a massive coalition that created the Hogwarts that many players enjoy today, not just TITO. Even on the minor update of its refounding, there was a team of defenders all trying to refound it to minimize the potential for a hawking. Escanaba would be the one in control of the founder nation, which did worry me a bit, given my shaky relationship with 10KI, but they gave me control of the account. I'm sure many of you can assume who I trusted its safekeeping with.

The Hogwarts that was founded in September 2015 and continues to this day is a vibrant and active community of roleplayers composed of defenders, raiders, independents and imperialists as well as many brand new NationStates players who have gone on to become very valuable members of our community. Regardless of where we came from, we are all natives of Hogwarts now. Hogwarts is a trophy to no one but its current members who are continuing to make it a great place to roleplay and debate.

Deutschland and Australia are prime examples of the good work that TITO does. Working with the natives of devastated communities in order to rebuild what was lost is the noblest of tasks one can partake in Gameplay and I'm disappointed, but not amazed, that people are being very quick to question TITO's motives. I'm not even going to touch on the fact of who is alleging these allegations.

[Mad-eye Jack]

My goodness all the Hogwarts misinformation in this thread, coming from Ivo/Knot. One has to wonder if it is willful lying or just straight up not doing any research or some convenient combination of both. At any rate it should give everyone pause to consider the veracity of the claims within this proposal and Ivo/Knot's "case" against TITO. I have no knowledge of TITO's discussions with natives on this operation but I can't say I trust that Ivo/Knot has anything but ill intentions for the natives of California. But maybe I'm unfairly punishing his motives here due to the fact he has raided the region in the past (multiple times?) and caused harm to the community of California he is all of a sudden purporting to be looking out for and would certainly harm again whenever he fancied.

[Funkadelia]

For an obfuscation of the truth, I rate this 2/10.

[General Knot]

Alas, the evidence points the other direction. Neu California's role in the effort is plainly visible on the region's RMB (see http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=18447240 and http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=18377508). He was the one who kicked off the process. And while I won't post private TGs here for invader eyes to pore over, there is more to it than what's on the RMB. His CTE prevents him from coming here and saying so himself.

These are talks about Luna Amore's role in returning foundership to California and a vote to determine who would be the next founder. The election to determine who would be the next founder never happened and nothing more developed from these talks. There was no indication for TITO to come sailing in with a 40-man army to refound the region. Let's not pull RMB posts without context again, agreed?

However, your attempts to hide such evidence from the good people of the Pacific, Osiris, and the rest of the world need to be called out. ...you have used EarthQuaker to suppress those two posts of Neu California's cited above. Besides bringing this sham resolution over the objections of those involved, including the region's natives, you have quite brazenly sought to suppress evidence before demanding its production by defenders. Whatever one's stance on the merits of any proposal, surely everyone here can agree that the facts should be allowed to speak for themselves. Resorting to such tactics is beneath the Security Council.

The fact that you used this logic in an attempt to discredit the proposal is simply astounding. I suppressed the entire Regional Message Board in my latest vacation to the Golden State, including all posts made by invaders of previous invasions. There's no conspiracy to purposefully "suppress evidence" that you can view simply by clicking the "Show Post" button.

It's amusing to see that a recurring theme in all defendant posts is the credibility of the author given that he's an invader. Not only is this an entirely flawed argument, but you may not be aware that I was passing World Assembly resolutions years before I started invading.

[Cormactopia II]

Let's cut through that wall of text and answer some basic questions:

1. Are you or are you not in the process of re-founding? That wasn't clear from your post.
2. Are there other natives besides the two you mentioned and are you consulting them? It looks like Bears Armed, at least, hasn't been consulted.

I'm still waiting for answers to these very basic questions from whoever in 10000 Islands is authorized to answer them, once they're done bickering with and smearing Knot.

[Klopstock]

The election to determine who would be the next founder never happened and nothing more developed from these talks.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=poll/p=61865

You're not very good at this, are you?