[PASSED] Commend Hell

[Wallenburg]

You're conflating GA rules with SC rules Wallenburg.

Oh really? Rule 4:

4. Your proposal must read as representing the opinion of the World Assembly, and as targeting a Nation or Region.
This means:
◦(a) You cannot reference the "real world" outside of NationStates.
◦(b) You must refer to nations as nations, not as the player behind them. This includes the use of pronouns such as "he" or "she" as opposed to "they".
◦(c) You cannot refer to the game, or events or actions in it, as part of a game.
◦(d) Your proposal must be written from the perspective of the World Assembly.

I see no way that the author could have mention the fact of Hell's entrance requirements + trusted puppets without violating the rules.

So you believe that this resolution violates the rules? Which one?

Don't make a mountain out of a molehill. Seriously.

Criticizing a resolution for lying to voters isn't "making a mountain out of a molehill".

-snip-

I have to agree with Drasnia, it really isn't that big of a deal. The resolution doesn't really lie, it just stretches the truth in a way that makes the explanation legal. You can still understand what the author meant.

I can understand it, because I have observed the entire debate. Without the context of this thread, this clause is completely detached from reality. A resolution shouldn't have to rest on the information provided in its debate thread to make sense.

As to the question of lying, if I tell you that the sun is out, and then you go outside and it is nighttime, am I not lying?

[Drasnia]

You're conflating GA rules with SC rules Wallenburg.

Oh really? Rule 4:

4. Your proposal must read as representing the opinion of the World Assembly, and as targeting a Nation or Region.
This means:
◦(a) You cannot reference the "real world" outside of NationStates.
◦(b) You must refer to nations as nations, not as the player behind them. This includes the use of pronouns such as "he" or "she" as opposed to "they".
◦(c) You cannot refer to the game, or events or actions in it, as part of a game.
◦(d) Your proposal must be written from the perspective of the World Assembly.

I see no way that the author could have mention the fact of Hell's entrance requirements + trusted puppets without violating the rules.

So you believe that this resolution violates the rules? Which one?

My apologies. I should have said "I see no other way. . ." I do not believe this violates any rules.

Don't make a mountain out of a molehill. Seriously.

Criticizing a resolution for lying to voters isn't "making a mountain out of a molehill".

I disagree that this resolution lies to voters, so, imo, it is making a mountain out of a molehill.

I have to agree with Drasnia, it really isn't that big of a deal. The resolution doesn't really lie, it just stretches the truth in a way that makes the explanation legal. You can still understand what the author meant.

I can understand it, because I have observed the entire debate. Without the context of this thread, this clause is completely detached from reality. A resolution shouldn't have to rest on the information provided in its debate thread to make sense.

As to the question of lying, if I tell you that the sun is out, and then you go outside and it is nighttime, am I not lying?

That's a strawman if I've ever heard one. The bill has to work within the rules of the SC. As a GA vet, I would think that you would understand this. I guess you don't.

Agree to disagree?

[Wallenburg]

[

Criticizing a resolution for lying to voters isn't "making a mountain out of a molehill".

I disagree that this resolution lies to voters, so, imo, it is making a mountain out of a molehill.

Some people disagree that Earth goes around the sun, or that Napoleon wasn't actually short. It doesn't make them right.

I can understand it, because I have observed the entire debate. Without the context of this thread, this clause is completely detached from reality. A resolution shouldn't have to rest on the information provided in its debate thread to make sense.

As to the question of lying, if I tell you that the sun is out, and then you go outside and it is nighttime, am I not lying?

That's a strawman if I've ever heard one. The bill has to work within the rules of the SC. As a GA vet, I would think that you would understand this. I guess you don't.

I think you need to look up "strawman", because you don't seem to know what it means. And I am well aware of the SC rules. I have never said that this resolution should have violated the rules just to tell the truth. I said that the clause mentioning the membership requirements of Hell should nor have been included at all.

Agree to disagree?

Whatever you want.

[Murden]

I think it's important to commend regions like hell for the simple fact that they are unique, stable, and have persevered over the years with a very interesting model of operation. All of the members are required to have world Assembly membership and the trials necessary to gain entry or quite frankly interesting and should be celebrated. I am fascinated by the use of as sister region. Far too often commending and condemning is almost reserved for the larger regions and Nations I think it's time we stepped it up for the little ones and show them that they matter as well.

[Ovybia]

Are we seriously commending a nation named after the widely recognized symbol of total evil?

Not me. AGAINST

It's bad enough to commend regions named "Nazi Haven" or "Support the Holocaust" but one called "Hell" which includes all of those evils in the name rapped up into one. That's just utter insanity.

[Murden]

Are we seriously commending a nation named after the widely recognized symbol of total evil?

Not me. AGAINST

It's bad enough to commend regions named "Nazi Haven" or "Support the Holocaust" but one called "Hell" which includes all of those evils in the name rapped up into one. That's just utter insanity.

If you actually take the time to read the description of hell you will know that it is no longer a fiery place of brimstone. They even note the irony in the name themselves. It's not as if they are the spawn of the devil or anything

[Drasnia]

[
I disagree that this resolution lies to voters, so, imo, it is making a mountain out of a molehill.

Some people disagree that Earth goes around the sun, or that Napoleon wasn't actually short. It doesn't make them right.

That's a strawman if I've ever heard one. The bill has to work within the rules of the SC. As a GA vet, I would think that you would understand this. I guess you don't.

I think you need to look up "strawman", because you don't seem to know what it means. And I am well aware of the SC rules. I have never said that this resolution should have violated the rules just to tell the truth. I said that the clause mentioning the membership requirements of Hell should nor have been included at all.

Agree to disagree?

Whatever you want.

No Wallenberg, I do know what a strawman is. You, however do not. You keep on posting arguments that none of us are making and disarming them so you can look correct. None of us are trying to argue that something easily verifiable is correct; we are arguing that in the context of the SC, the phrasing of the resolution was the only for it to make sense while remaining legal. Argue all you want. The fact that this made it through the drafting, approval, and voting process without ever having a mod question it or use the discard function demonstrates that your original argument is false.

[Wallenburg]

Some people disagree that Earth goes around the sun, or that Napoleon wasn't actually short. It doesn't make them right.

I think you need to look up "strawman", because you don't seem to know what it means. And I am well aware of the SC rules. I have never said that this resolution should have violated the rules just to tell the truth. I said that the clause mentioning the membership requirements of Hell should nor have been included at all.

Whatever you want.

No Wallenberg, I do know what a strawman is. You, however do not. You keep on posting arguments that none of us are making and disarming them so you can look correct.

[citation needed]

None of us are trying to argue that something easily verifiable is correct; we are arguing that in the context of the SC, the phrasing of the resolution was the only for it to make sense while remaining legal. Argue all you want. The fact that this made it through the drafting, approval, and voting process without ever having a mod question it or use the discard function demonstrates that your original argument is false.

Exactly when did I claim that this resolution was illegal? Reading comprehension, my friend.

[Drasnia]

No Wallenberg, I do know what a strawman is. You, however do not. You keep on posting arguments that none of us are making and disarming them so you can look correct.

[citation needed]

*sigh*Fine. You want to see all of your strawmen? Here:

As to the question of lying, if I tell you that the sun is out, and then you go outside and it is nighttime, am I not lying?

You don't get to lie and get away with it just because you don't want to get hit with a warning. If you didn't want your resolution to lie, you shouldn't have kept that clause in the first place.

Some people disagree that Earth goes around the sun, or that Napoleon wasn't actually short. It doesn't make them right.

---

None of us are trying to argue that something easily verifiable is correct; we are arguing that in the context of the SC, the phrasing of the resolution was the only for it to make sense while remaining legal. Argue all you want. The fact that this made it through the drafting, approval, and voting process without ever having a mod question it or use the discard function demonstrates that your original argument is false.

Exactly when did I claim that this resolution was illegal? Reading comprehension, my friend.

Right here:

4. Your proposal must read as representing the opinion of the World Assembly, and as targeting a Nation or Region.
This means:
◦(a) You cannot reference the "real world" outside of NationStates.
◦(b) You must refer to nations as nations, not as the player behind them. This includes the use of pronouns such as "he" or "she" as opposed to "they".
◦(c) You cannot refer to the game, or events or actions in it, as part of a game.
◦(d) Your proposal must be written from the perspective of the World Assembly.

You underlined a section implying that this violated the rule.

My blood is properly boiling right now. I'm going to have to take a break from this thread. Adieu.

[Libetarian Republics]

I have switched my voted for-against quite a few times. I like Hell, but i share concerns about it being commendable. In accordance to TRR citizenry, my current vote is FOR.

[Wallenburg]

[citation needed]

*sigh*Fine. You want to see all of your strawmen? Here:

As to the question of lying, if I tell you that the sun is out, and then you go outside and it is nighttime, am I not lying?

Not claiming you made any argument.

You don't get to lie and get away with it just because you don't want to get hit with a warning. If you didn't want your resolution to lie, you shouldn't have kept that clause in the first place.

Not claiming you made any argument.

Some people disagree that Earth goes around the sun, or that Napoleon wasn't actually short. It doesn't make them right.

Not claiming you made any argument. Curious, you seem to think that analogies and questions constitute strawmen. Is that the case? Is it a strawman that I am asking you this question?

---

Exactly when did I claim that this resolution was illegal? Reading comprehension, my friend.

Right here:

4. Your proposal must read as representing the opinion of the World Assembly, and as targeting a Nation or Region.
This means:
◦(a) You cannot reference the "real world" outside of NationStates.
◦(b) You must refer to nations as nations, not as the player behind them. This includes the use of pronouns such as "he" or "she" as opposed to "they".
◦(c) You cannot refer to the game, or events or actions in it, as part of a game.
◦(d) Your proposal must be written from the perspective of the World Assembly.

You underlined a section implying that this violated the rule.

Yep, you really need to read that again. I didn't even remotely imply that.

My blood is properly boiling right now. I'm going to have to take a break from this thread. Adieu.

Okay, then. Just a word of advice, if you can't handle criticism, don't dish it out.

[Libetarian Republics]

Are we seriously commending a nation named after the widely recognized symbol of total evil?

Not me. AGAINST

It's bad enough to commend regions named "Nazi Haven" or "Support the Holocaust" but one called "Hell" which includes all of those evils in the name rapped up into one. That's just utter insanity.

I'm pretty sure there's no commendation for Nazi Haven or Support the Holocaust.

Let's not try to compare Hell with them.

[Ovybia]

Let's not try to compare Hell with them.

You may not like the comparison but it is factual. Hell refers to the place of all evil and those evils include the holocaust and mass genocide.

[Wallenburg]

Let's not try to compare Hell with them.

You may not like the comparison but it is factual. Hell refers to the place of all evil and those evils include the holocaust and mass genocide.

Okay, that's not fair to the region. Weren't you ever told not to judge a book by its cover?

[The Puddle Jumping Wads of Wrapper]

Let's not try to compare Hell with them.

You may not like the comparison but it is factual. Hell refers to the place of all evil and those evils include the holocaust and mass genocide.

Evil? Are you sure? I've been to Hell. It was a very interesting looking place, very odd looking limestone formations. I even got a t-shirt while I was there, it says, "I'd rather go to HELL than go to WORK". No, I didn't see any evil at all. Well, there was this huge icky bug quivering on the bumper of the tour bus, but other than that, nothing even resembling evil.

Hell

[Ovybia]

You may not like the comparison but it is factual. Hell refers to the place of all evil and those evils include the holocaust and mass genocide.

Okay, that's not fair to the region. Weren't you ever told not to judge a book by its cover?

My comparison was to another hypothetical region which I gave no information about except that it was called "Support the Holocaust." You did the very thing you are accusing me of, you judged that region by it's name

You may not like the comparison but it is factual. Hell refers to the place of all evil and those evils include the holocaust and mass genocide.

Evil? Are you sure?

Yes, I'm sure. And their founder's name is "Satan." So yes, I am very sure it refers to the evil hell and not the rock formation named "hell."

[Wallenburg]

Okay, that's not fair to the region. Weren't you ever told not to judge a book by its cover?

My comparison was to another hypothetical region which I gave no information about except that it was called "Support the Holocaust." You did the very thing you are accusing me of, you judged that region by it's name

No I didn't. Try again.

Evil? Are you sure?

Yes, I'm sure. And their founder's name is "Satan." So yes, I am very sure it refers to the evil hell and not the rock formation named "hell."

So what? All it did was adopt the name. My region's name is "The Nether", which pretty much is an equivalent to "Hell". Does that make it an evil region?

[The Puddle Jumping Wads of Wrapper]

Evil? Are you sure?

Yes, I'm sure. And their founder's name is "Satan." So yes, I am very sure it refers to the evil hell and not the rock formation named "hell."

Hmmm. Well, I'm not exactly sure if Miroslav Šatan, the ex-hockey player, has been to Hell, Grand Cayman -- or, Hell, Michigan for that matter -- but if so, that proves that you can, theoretically, have a Šatan in Hell and have there be absolutely nothing evil about it.

Seriously. They're just names in a game. Get over it.

[Ovybia]

So what? All it did was adopt the name. My region's name is "The Nether", which pretty much is an equivalent to "Hell". Does that make it an evil region?

The Nether is absolutely not equivalent to hell.

Seriously. They're just names in a game. Get over it.

There's nothing to get over. I have expressed my dislike at the "commend hell" proposal and that's all there is to it. Though, I do wonder if a proposal called "Commend Hitler" came to vote that you'd disregard the name in your consideration (especially if the founder of the region "Hitler" was "Holocaust").

[The Puddle Jumping Wads of Wrapper]

Though, I do wonder if a proposal called "Commend Hitler" came to vote that you'd disregard the name in your consideration (especially if the founder of the region "Hitler" was "Holocaust").

Hitler was a real and despicable person, and the Holocaust a genuine tragedy.

You know what? I'm switching my 27 votes from AGAINST to FOR, just for the fun of it. Huh. Look at that. Now it's passing.

[Wallenburg]

So what? All it did was adopt the name. My region's name is "The Nether", which pretty much is an equivalent to "Hell". Does that make it an evil region?

The Nether is absolutely not equivalent to hell.

...

http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/The_Nether

[Ovybia]

Hitler was a real and despicable person, and the Holocaust a genuine tragedy.

Seriously. They're just names in a game. Get over it.

[Ovybia]

The Nether is absolutely not equivalent to hell.

...

http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/The_Nether

Still not the same. Hell is the generally recognized word for the source of all evil. If something bad happens, we say it came from "hell" not "the nether." If someone purposely names their region "hell," he is obviously making a moral statement and I'm not sure exactly what that statement is. It sounds to me like a statement related to the "Black Mass" (which was created to be offensive to Catholics).

[The Puddle Jumping Wads of Wrapper]

Hitler was a real and despicable person, and the Holocaust a genuine tragedy.

Seriously. They're just names in a game. Get over it.

There's nothing to get over.

[Bear Connors Paradiso]

Was I the only one who voted NO, because the proposal was poorly written and didn't give anything commendable about Hell? Hell, my region is very active with a lot of character, we should be commended! No, no...