[DEFEATED] Commend BearNation

[Cormac Stark]

That seems a real stretch there.

First if I made a list of regions I don't make embassies with it would include Nazis, raiders, and other trouble makers. One thing on a list of things doesn't imbue it's properties onto everything else in the list, that's silly.

Further the constitution allows raiders to hold minor offices and be citizens, and I don't expect bigots or openly nazi players could, and I expect nations with a swastika / nazi theme would get ejected unlike raiders, so that seems to be a strong separation to this lumping you see.

The lumping together of raiders and bigots is really clear, particularly in Philosophy 115 where the only thing separating them is a "/". When something on your list is "fascist" or "Nazi," you want to do something to make clear that you're not equating others on the list with fascists or Nazis. Unless of course you don't care how raiders feel about being lumped in with fascists and Nazis, as is clearly the case with BearNation.

This is not even to mention the question we haven't raised yet, which is: Why shouldn't Gay have embassies with raider regions? There are a fair few gay people in raider regions and I think it's safe to say most people in raider regions support LGBT rights. Given that offering a safe space to LGBT people and promoting LGBT equality are the primary aims of Gay, why not have embassies with any regions that support those aims? And the answer is, again, because Gay is allowing its defender gameplay alignment to undermine its stated primary purpose. And it is doing so to the detriment of LGBT players who happen to be raiders.

And I do think this could be reworded better in a way even you could support, maybe that means rephrasing it for being a Gay Defender region as you suggest.

There is no way to reword this that would lead me to support it. I don't believe that BearNation's behavior, or the collective behavior of Gay as a region, warrants commendation. If anything, I believe the opposite: BearNation ought to be condemned for hijacking a region called Gay to push an extremist defender agenda instead of the gay equality agenda it's supposed to be promoting, and for alienating some LGBT players from a region that ought to be a welcoming space for them.

[The Stalker]

Ok Cormac, lol, don't really agree, but I don't really see a point trying to convince you either.

To me saying having a list of who you will or won't make embassies with, isn't lumping raiders in with every group on that list, particularly when they make clear exceptions for raiders.

Every region has to deal with choosing a side if they wanna be involved in the more major elements of the game, I don't think it's fair to say he's being unfair to raiders for democratically choosing to implement these safe guards, unnecessarily as you may see them.

I think raiders forget how apprehensive non-raiders might be to having them hold a high position, even if it's not WA delegate or founder, I mean it be hard to say, yea a raider should be our diplomat and represent our region, or they should head up our intel or security. Really most major positions in any government would be hesitant to have someone who has a history of destroy and invading other regions. If you disagree, which position do you think raiders should be able to apply for that they currently can't?

My thoughts towards revising it may be to remove the safe haven for all and make it more about their defender contributions.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

If the people dont want an openly raider citizen to hold office, then they won't elect said citizen to hold office. To constitutionally disallow it shines, in my opinion, a bad light on the target of this proposal. For example - our constitution doesn't bar felons from holding office. Sure, they can't vote while incarcerated or on probation, but they can run for whatever they want, assuming they can get the support to be elected. This is akin to dis-allowing that, rather than allowing the people to choose.

They should be able to apply for any they damn well want, and let the voters decide. That's far more democratic than any measure restricting who can run.

[The Stalker]

Well they voted to ratify the constitution, so they did democratically make the decision, and the voters made their call. I don't think it's any less the people's choice if they vote in a policy instead.

Really his role in Gay isn't even the main focus of the resolution, i'm more looking to focus on his literary contributions and his role as a teacher of sorts to the various communities of NS.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

The Security Council,

Applauding BearNation's 11+ years of devoted service to educating and building the communities of Nationstates,

Celebrating the numerous literary contributions BearNation has made, authoring dozens of articles for prominent newspaper organizations including The Rejected Times, Hell's Bells, and his blog; Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Philosophy,

Valuing BearNation's desire to spread knowledge through his educational writings that offer helpful advice on daily issues and national strategies,

Admiring BearNation's promotion of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) equal rights throughout Nationstates,

Recognizing BearNation is serving his fifth year as the elected WA delegate and founder of Gay,

Further Applauding BearNation's contributions to the community of Gay including:
• Making it a safe haven for all and growing the region's population to a record high,
• Authoring Gay's 2nd & 3rd Constitution and documenting the region's history,
• As a consistent advocate for safer sex has authored educational articles on the subject,

Observing BearNation also controls Dr George and has been the founder of Philosophy 115 since 2005,

Appreciating the unique culture developed within Philosophy 115, the atmosphere of a college classroom where they actively promote the study of philosophy and class is always in session,

Impressed by the extensive ambassadorial network run by BearNation through both the regions of Gay and Philosophy 115 spanning several dozen prominent communities which he actively engages with,

Believing BearNation has made a positive impact on the communities of Nationstates and is someone we can all learn from,

Hereby Commends BearNation.

Co-authored by Jakker City

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Feedback is most welcome.

Of 9 content sections, 3 relate to that, 6 to Gay/Philosophy, and a general closer. Of those six, at least half reference equal rights/constitution/safe haven for all/the ambassadorial network set up. Those regions are constitutionally/WFE'ly NOT equal, even to all LGBTQ folks, as discussed above, and prevent embassies between potential allies to the LGBTQ cause. That, as Cormac is saying, tarnishes the efforts of Gay and Philosophy as a whole, ergo damaging 2/3 of the content basis for the commendation. If you want to commend those efforts mainly, they could use effort to be a more main part of the proposal, i.e. mentioned in more detail and a larger share of the piece than the less vital notes.

[Cormac Stark]

To me saying having a list of who you will or won't make embassies with, isn't lumping raiders in with every group on that list, particularly when they make clear exceptions for raiders.

Well, then I think we just have a fundamentally different way of interpreting being listed alongside fascists and Nazis, perhaps because you never have been.

Every region has to deal with choosing a side if they wanna be involved in the more major elements of the game, I don't think it's fair to say he's being unfair to raiders for democratically choosing to implement these safe guards, unnecessarily as you may see them.

One can choose a side of gameplay without being this extreme, and most defenders do. Case in point, this is a (possibly non-exhaustive) list of defender regions that have no prohibition against raiders serving in elected office and/or maintain embassies with raider regions:

* Lazarus
* The Rejected Realms
* Spiritus
* Taijitu
* Wintreath
* Renegade Islands Alliance

Other than 10000 Islands which is an ancient region known for its hardcore extremism, these regions are the defender regions that are most actively involved in the field, fighting raiders at update. And yet none of these regions impose such harsh, discriminatory restrictions on raiders. Lazarus and The Rejected Realms are both founderless Sinkers that stand to lose a lot if raiders overthrow their governments, and yet even they don't impose legal restrictions on raiders serving in elected office, up to and including WA Delegate.

This has nothing to do with just choosing a side of gameplay. This is outright, punitive discrimination, for the sake of it and not for any good reason. And again, it's happening in a region that is supposed to be providing a safe and welcoming space for all LGBT people, not making some LGBT players feel unwelcome and like second class citizens because they're raiders.

I think raiders forget how apprehensive non-raiders might be to having them hold a high position, even if it's not WA delegate or founder, I mean it be hard to say, yea a raider should be our diplomat and represent our region, or they should head up our intel or security. Really most major positions in any government would be hesitant to have someone who has a history of destroy and invading other regions. If you disagree, which position do you think raiders should be able to apply for that they currently can't?

All of them, except I don't think they should be sharing their Founder nation like that in general, with raiders or otherwise. Again, the constitutionally stated, primary purpose of the region is to be a haven for LGBT people, not to be an ultra-extreme defender region that is only welcoming to LGBT people if they have the right alignment. If the regions I've mentioned above -- all of which are defender gameplay regions without any OOC component, unlike Gay, which has LGBT equality as its primary component -- if those regions can allow raiders into their governments, Gay should be even more willing and able to do so.

My thoughts towards revising it may be to remove the safe haven for all and make it more about their defender contributions.

That isn't going to help you, because then the question becomes if Gay has contributed enough to the defender cause to warrant commendation of BearNation. It hasn't, because it isn't a region that is regularly militarily active or even diplomatically active on behalf of or in support of defending. All that Gay has contributed to defending is further damage to the reputation of the defender cause, by making defenders look extreme, intolerant, unfriendly, and unwelcoming when, in fact, most actively defending regions are far more moderate and welcoming toward raiders than is Gay.

The bottom line is that nothing about Gay is commendable, and BearNation is directly responsible for fostering a political climate that is unwelcoming toward LGBT raiders. That is going to remain a problem for you regardless of how you reword this proposal because I'm going to make sure it remains a problem, as it should. I would recommend just dropping this proposal because, I can assure you, it will be defeated in a landslide.

[The Stalker]

Well in the drafting stages prior to the post, we have been discussing reducing the line about Gay with the 3 bullet points, to one more simplified agreeable line. As well as to add more details and lines regarding his literally contributions.

The current feedback clearly suggests some people will take issue with those lines, and will be taken into account when we redraft.

However I do think the issues with that part of the resolution is a little blown out of proportion of what it actually means. Raiders can be apart of the region, they aren't eject or prevent from being apart of the community. Merely raiders can't hold high level positions, honestly I think many non-raider regions hold the same policy, my regions do. Again if you disagree I would ask which position do you think raider should be able to apply for they currently can't?

And such a decision was a collective one made by the region.

To me it's similar to the way in the US, you must be born in the US to become President. We decided it would be a wise safe guard to have.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

All of them, that's been stated by both of us.


On paper, sure, it's a restriction, not a ban. But in effect... I can't tell you how many times Port came on to skype to vent about how unwelcome he was feeling in a place he considered home, even as they claim to be welcome to all. This is the guy who was respected enough to warrant a personal exception as well, not just any hum drum fellow. The presence in writing just goes to show exactly how deep seated that feeling goes - to the point that it *can*, as you've mentioned, democratically pass. If this is the middle ground, as all such measures generally stand in, I'd hate to see what the extreme side of the initial proposal was.

[The Stalker]

One can choose a side of gameplay without being this extreme, and most defenders do.

So allowing raiders to be apart of the region, hold citizenship and minor offices, but not allowed them to hold major ones is your definition of extreme? Cause it really doesn't come across as extreme, if anything it's pretty moderate to me.

Making a list of region types you don't wanna make embassies with, is a list of just whom they do or don't wanna make embassies with. Nothing more, you make it sounds like if a region doesn't wanna make embassies with both Nazis and raiders their clearly just a terrible region or something. Tons of regions on principal don't make embassies with Nazis or raiders. Not because their the same or related in anyway, but because they don't like Nazis and they don't like the way raiders raid.

[Cormac Stark]

Well in the drafting stages prior to the post, we have been discussing reducing the line about Gay with the 3 bullet points, to one more simplified agreeable line. As well as to add more details and lines regarding his literally contributions.

The current feedback clearly suggests some people will take issue with those lines, and will be taken into account when we redraft.

If Gay is mentioned at all in any commendable context, I will fight tooth and nail to defeat the proposal. There is nothing commendable about that region or the way it's been administered. Even if all reference to Gay were removed, he has imposed a similar level of anti-raider extremism in the embassy policy of Philosophy 115, which isn't even a defender region and, again, really shouldn't have anything to do with gameplay ideology and is probably being held back by it. Believe it or not, there are not only gay raiders but also intellectual raiders who might have something to contribute to Philosophy 115 as well.

I don't think BearNation's literary contributions, alone, are enough to warrant commendation, and they don't outweigh his crappy attitude toward other players in regions in which that attitude isn't even contextually relevant. Have you stopped to consider that maybe this guy just shouldn't be commended?

However I do think the issues with that part of the resolution is a little blown out of proportion of what it actually means. Raiders can be apart of the region, they aren't eject or prevent from being apart of the community. Merely raiders can't hold high level positions, honestly I think many non-raider regions hold the same policy, my regions do. Again if you disagree I would ask which position do you think raider should be able to apply for they currently can't?

I guess you didn't read my last post, since I already answered this question in that post. I also pointed out that actively defending regions don't hold this restrictive policy against raiders, which undermines your evidence-free claim that "most" or "many" non-raider regions have this policy. Even most defender regions don't.

Regarding the assertion that raiders can be in the region, and are "merely" deprived of any opportunity to hold elected office, I will just point out that separate but equal has never been pretty in any context. Separate and not equal is even less so, and certainly isn't welcoming. Why would any raider want to participate in a region in which they're treated like second class citizens and held in suspicion, when the region isn't even supposed to be about all this gameplay bullshit?

And such a decision was a collective one made by the region.

As your own proposal makes clear, BearNation has had a significant formative influence on the legal documents and institutions of Gay, as the author of its second and third constitutions. Believe me, I'm not absolving the other residents of Gay of their responsibility for this policy, but trying to deflect BearNation's personal role in the policy by pointing to the collective level of responsibility is wrong. It's clear, insofar as anti-raider discrimination runs across both of his regions, that he has been the driving force behind it.

It's becoming increasingly clear that you're grasping at straws and fluff that is free of substance in order to pass yet another commendation of an extremist defender, for being an extremist defender. I'll pass.

[The Stalker]

You know what Cormac, I just can't take you seriously you switch sides every other month, unlucky for me I apparently caught you on the wrong month.

I guess I must have missed all the defender regions that have raiders holding high level offices. I mean how silly to have a policy against people leading a region just because they go around destroying and invading regions. So extreme to not want them in office, Er I mean, in high level office, almost forget they can hold positions.

Why do people even have any policy for whom they build an embassy with? We should just have embassies with everyone, that would be the most non-extreme fairest policy ever.

[Cormac Stark]

So allowing raiders to be apart of the region, hold citizenship and minor offices, but not allowed them to hold major ones is your definition of extreme? Cause it really doesn't come across as extreme, if anything it's pretty moderate to me.

It's extreme enough that even defender regions, which are active in defending, don't do it. So yes, especially for a region that isn't even supposed to be about gameplay, I do think it is very extreme. It's extreme in general. If it comes across as moderate to you, I suppose we have our answer on why you are so hell-bent to commend such an extreme defender: It's because you are one, or at least like to portray yourself as one (but see below because it's a bit more complicated than that, as we both know).

Making a list of region types you don't wanna make embassies with, is a list of just whom they do or don't wanna make embassies with. Nothing more, you make it sounds like if a region doesn't wanna make embassies with both Nazis and raiders their clearly just a terrible region or something. Tons of regions on principal don't make embassies with Nazis or raiders. Not because their the same or related in anyway, but because they don't like Nazis and they don't like the way raiders raid.

The issue, again, is that while you're citing "lots of regions" you aren't citing any evidence, while I've cited actual defender regions that have embassies with raider regions.

There is no reason for Gay or Philosophy 115 not to have embassies with raider regions that support their aims, because neither of those regions' aims are supposed to be gameplay-oriented. Raiders can and many do support LGBT equality; raiders can and many do support intellectual pursuits like philosophy and robust discussion and debate about real life intellectual topics. Raiders can, and I bet many would, make valuable contributions to Gay and Philosophy 115 if they weren't made to feel completely unwelcome and even hated due to the personal bias of BearNation and others who have bought into his extremism.

And this guy is who you want the Security Council to commend? For what? No thanks.

You know what Cormac, I just can't take you seriously you switch sides every other month, unlucky for me I apparently caught you on the wrong month.

You can't take me seriously? Let's not forget that you initially became Delegate of Hell by raiding it, something you're willing to do when you want to make a founderless region your personal project, but you're fine with regions discriminating against raiders. I can't take you seriously either when I think back to the telegrams exchanged with natives of Hell in 2013 asking me to deploy the Medjai Guard of Osiris to liberate Hell from you, and then see you advocating this level of extremist intolerance against raiders as if you aren't one.

I guess I must have missed all the defender regions that have raiders holding high level offices. I mean how silly to have a policy against people leading a region just because they go around destroying and invading regions. So extreme to not want them in office, Er I mean, in high level office, almost forget they can hold positions.

There are actually a number of non-defenders who have no problem with raiding and are holding high office in defender regions, including the Delegate of Lazarus and the President of Spiritus, just to name two. There is also a huge difference between a majority of voters not voting for a raider candidate, versus writing discrimination against raiders into a regional constitution. Even if raiders aren't going to get elected in Lazarus, The Rejected Realms, etc., at least they have an opportunity to run and make the case for why they should be, an opportunity LGBT raiders do not have in Gay. That you keep repeating the same falsehood about it being common for regions to engage in this level of discrimination against raiders doesn't make it so, and it hasn't been so for years.

Why do people even have any policy for whom they build an embassy with? We should just have embassies with everyone, that would be the most non-extreme fairest policy ever.

There is no reason for a region like Gay or Philosophy 115 to categorically deny embassies with all raider regions, even those incredibly supportive of those regions' aims, except bias against raiders. You can try to make that seem moderate and normal all you want, but only defenders are going to buy that being moderate and normal, and again, not even all defenders since many of them do have raider embassies!

[The Stalker]

You can't take me seriously? Let's not forget that you initially became Delegate of Hell by raiding it, something you're willing to do when you want to make a founderless region your personal project, but you're fine with regions discriminating against raiders. I can't take you seriously either when I think back to the telegrams exchanged with natives of Hell in 2013 asking me to deploy the Medjai Guard of Osiris to liberate Hell from you, and then see you advocating this level of extremist intolerance against raiders as if you aren't one.

Wow that is just a slanderous lie. If you knew your facts you'd know that on May 4th, 2013, Big Jim P suddenly stepped down as delegate, at which point I offered to become delegate, I had full support of all the elders at that time. I brought in two friends, and even checked with the other elders before doing so. Nearly 2 months later Nodin AKA Captain Woodhouse of Nazi Europe/a, decided he wanted to coup me, he went looking for an army. Turned to you and Osiris, and you almost aided him, but backed out after realizing he was CW or so you told me. Of course shortly after I did step down as Delegate (Yea I stepped down) and Freddland became delegate, Nodin found his army of Nazis and raided Hell couping Freddland. A few months after the raid with Fredd and Jim being alternating being Delegate, we came up with a new vision for Hell and I took the throne once more.

I've fought long and hard to get where I am and done it honestly.
----------------

Now to the matter at hand. I have looked into why they have this policy, and I have another short history lesson.

Back in 2005 shortly after BN arrived the original Founder, Gay pride, cease to exist. It is said he was a straight man who felt that the region should be led by a gay person, so he let his nation die. It was in the following years the region would join the FRA and become more defender leaning.

The region was then founderless until it was refounded in 2009. Ever since it's population has been raider-phobic. Thus the reason for theses restrictions, really sounds like a few leftest founderless communities I can think of.

Regarding Port, there seems to have been a few incidences with him in Gay that attributed to the wording of the Constitution, if someone wants to talk further on that, I feel it be more appropriate via telegram.

[Cormac Stark]

Wow that is just a slanderous lie. If you knew your facts you'd know that on May 4th, 2013, Big Jim P suddenly stepped down as delegate, at which point I offered to become delegate, I had full support of all the elders at that time. I brought in two friends, and even checked with the other elders before doing so. Nearly 2 months later Nodin AKA Captain Woodhouse of Nazi Europe/a, decided he wanted to coup me, he went looking for an army. Turned to you and Osiris, and you almost aided him, but backed out after realizing he was CW or so you told me. Of course shortly after I did step down as Delegate (Yea I stepped down) and Freddland became delegate, Nodin found his army of Nazis and raided Hell couping Freddland. A few months after the raid with Fredd and Jim being alternating being Delegate, we came up with a new vision for Hell and I took the throne once more.

I've fought long and hard to get where I am and done it honestly.

Just for the record, I had zero contact with Nodin that I can recall. I became aware of his alternate identity, and wouldn't assist him anywhere under any circumstances -- nor did he ask for our help. All of my contact was actually with Freddland, whom Osiris intended to be lead in our liberation attempt, but then the Medjai Guard was needed elsewhere and the attempt was never made.

Freddland certainly saw it as a raid at the time, as did several defenders.

Now to the matter at hand. I have looked into why they have this policy, and I have another short history lesson.

Back in 2005 shortly after BN arrived the original Founder, Gay pride, cease to exist. It is said he was a straight man who felt that the region should be led by a gay person, so he let his nation die. It was in the following years the region would join the FRA and become more defender leaning.

The region was then founderless until it was refounded in 2009. Ever since it's population has been raider-phobic. Thus the reason for theses restrictions, really sounds like a few leftest founderless communities I can think of.

So because the region was founderless from 2005-2009 -- which means it's had a Founder now for six years -- that's supposed to justify unnecessary and extreme discrimination against raiders, including LGBT people that Gay is supposed to be welcoming and supporting? Sorry, but it doesn't. It's been six years, it's time for them to get over it, at least if they're at all serious about being a safe space for all LGBT players.

[The Stalker]

Freddland certainly saw it as a raid at the time, as did several defenders.

Yes Freddland was good friends with Nodin, so naturally support his coup. Then after I stepped down and while Freddland was delegate Nodin decided to coup him and succeeded. Was a tough lesson for all of us, but Hell is stronger for it, now both Fredd and Jim serve as co-rulers will full admin powers.

So because the region was founderless from 2005-2009 -- which means it's had a Founder now for six years -- that's supposed to justify unnecessary and extreme discrimination against raiders, including LGBT people that Gay is supposed to be welcoming and supporting? Sorry, but it doesn't. It's been six years, it's time for them to get over it, at least if they're at all serious about being a safe space for all LGBT players.

Well I think it puts things into context. I can't think of any formerly founderless region that isn't a bit raider-phobic practicing anti-raider policies and/or won't have embassies with raider regions.

The Constitution was ratified in December 2014, so this was four years after. About how long it's been for HH, and the average resident is still anti-raider.

Considering their history, the fact they allow raiders into their region and hold minor offices I think makes them a pretty moderate formerly founderless region.

Honestly, BearNation is a good dude. If you came to him with real interest in getting involved in the region of Gay, I know he would give you the opportunity to do so.

[Nodin]

Wow that is just a slanderous lie. If you knew your facts you'd know that on May 4th, 2013, Big Jim P suddenly stepped down as delegate, at which point I offered to become delegate, I had full support of all the elders at that time.

Apparently Cormac thinks your character factors into the integrity of your proposal. And you think Cormac's flip-flopping reputation invalidates his argument. For the most part, Cormac isn't lying in this instance. You are.

Fred—not you—became delegate after Jim stepped down. Your WA wasn't attached to Hell. You joined the WA when Jim resigned and moved in outsiders to endorse you. You neither had enough WA support to take the delegacy from Fred nor the "full support of all the elders at that time." It's all on the RMB.

The Ew yuk Nazis! routine is an act. You begged a Nazi to give you a boost into the high chair. One of my soldiers augmented your outside support to help you take the seat from Fred.

I brought in two friends, and even checked with the other elders before doing so.

You hadn't asked anyone before bringing in outsiders to endorse you. Again, it's all on the RMB.

Nearly 2 months later Nodin AKA Captain Woodhouse of Nazi Europe/a, decided he wanted to coup me, he went looking for an army.

More lies. You knew I already had an army. As mentioned, one of my soldiers helped you replace Fred—with your blessing. Just as Fred was okay with me bringing in Nazis to remove you from the seat, you were okay with Nazis doing your dirty work.

I secured Hell's delegacy for you because you promised to run the region democratically. Delegacy retention was contingent on you keeping your promises. I wasn't the only one who wanted you out of the seat when you began breaking promises and exposing your intent to use Hell to grab SC badges and game fame. Fred, Sabana Santa and BEEKER also wanted you gone. Klesh/Lorx and BEEKER left the region owing to your delegacy.

Yes Freddland was good friends with Nodin, so naturally support his coup.

Fred supported your removal without any prompt from me. I've told you before that Fred and I were not good friends. We tolerated each other. Back then, that's as close to friendship as Hell members got. It's part of what made the region unique.

Fred was agreeable to using Nazi support to put him in the seat. He'd also received an offer from Cormac to remove you. Fred copied me on his TG exchanges with Cormac. We decided to give Cormac the contract because my Nazi gameplay associates demanded your head in exchange for their services. At that point, you'd joined Antifa to screw me for opposing your delegacy. Removing you from power wasn't enough to appease Nazis. They wanted Fred to banject you. We knew some of the elders didn't give a shit who was in the seat, but thought they might bristle at banjection.

Turned to you and Osiris, and you almost aided him, but backed out after realizing he was CW or so you told me.

That bit is why I said Cormac is telling the truth for the most part. He's bullshitting you if he told you he bowed out because he'd only just learned I was Woodhouse. I read his excuse to Fred. He was having personal problems that were well-documented on the Gameplay forum.

You may be in the seat now honestly, but you didn’t acquire the delegacy and retain it honestly almost three years ago. Cormac is 100 percent correct when he says you're willing to raid a region when you want to make a founderless region your personal project (using Nazis to achieve that objective no less), but you're fine with regions discriminating against raiders. Hell was on defender radar. No doubt defenders viewed posts like Fred's, calling you a raider and a usurper, as evidence that you were holding the delegacy against native wishes.

http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=3623024
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=3637470

[The Stalker]

Whatever I don't feel the need to debate the details of this yet again with you, and I was trying to give a summarized version. lol, every time I go on the forums to do something, here you pop up, my own little stalker.

The elders were on board when I took the seat, I don't consider dealing with a coup makes me a raider, I made the four of us co-leaders and repetitively ask for input, appeasing you ever step of the way.

When I did step down to Freddland the guy you wanted to have the seat, what did you do? You couped him too! lol, I mean really, it's just your nature. And you can say you never friends, but he definitely considered you one, he told me as much, and honestly your betrayal and mass ejection of half the region is far worse than anything your claiming I did. Removing you from Hell gave it new life, freeing us from all the crap you kept causing.

Now I do find this to be getting a bit off topic, if we could get back to the resolution at hand.

[Unibot III]

I wonder what "Defender Cormac" would think of Gay. Perhaps, and I can only speculate on the intentions of Gay's constitutional authors, Gay sees a positive safe space and aggressive in-game acts to be antithetical - in other words, to be welcomed equally into a safe place, you have to agree to leave your aggression at the door. Such an idea runs counter to Gameplay's traditional approach to "R/D" as just two sides of the same coin, demographics that must both be equally tolerated, but there's a logic present there, especially if you actually consider raids harmful.

[Cormac Stark]

I wonder what "Defender Cormac" would think of Gay.

Defender Cormac didn't like Gay either, which is why I haven't tried to join Gay again since my first attempt in 2012, while still a raider in Exshaw, when I learned of their backward and extreme policies.

Perhaps, and I can only speculate on the intentions of Gay's constitutional authors, Gay sees a positive safe space and aggressive in-game acts to be antithetical - in other words, to be welcomed equally into a safe place, you have to agree to leave your aggression at the door. Such an idea runs counter to Gameplay's traditional approach to "R/D" as just two sides of the same coin, demographics that must both be equally tolerated, but there's a logic present there, especially if you actually consider raids harmful.

That you think their policy is reasonable only lends to the strength of the assertion that it's the furthest thing from reasonable. Your own commendation was, after all, repealed because 10,582 WA votes (86%) agreed that you have "proven extremely divisive" even among defenders, that under your leadership "the UDL strayed far from the defender ideal of regional sovereignty," that you have a "complete disregard for the sovereignty of regions that do not conform to [your] extreme worldview," and repudiated your "disreputable behavior" because it was "contrary to the principles and aims of this Security Council."

So, thank you for contributing your thoughts. You've been very helpful to my argument. Now run along.

[Unibot III]

You sound so bitter and angry. Do note at no point in my most recent post did I suggest I preferred Gay's current constitutional situation; if you remember, I did at one time run the Defender region you're praising for its embrace of diversity here (and I also penned its Bill of Rights which protected the free entry and equal participation of invaders in the Rejected Realms.)

However, I do think Dr George is a very commendable fellow; I was simply offering a stab at why it is that Gay might have the policy it does - since I hadn't seen anyone in this abomination of a debate offer a coherent defense. Personally as a WA voter I've voted for proposals despite me not agreeing with everything a nominee does - I would vote for a commendation of Europeia, for example, even if it praised its acts of aggression because I think Europeia's made a positive contribution to the game overall, same could be said about Todd McCloud or whatever; point stands, nominees are rarely perfect as far as our own values go, just as people aren't - we praise nominees on a balance of what they've accomplished and what they've contributed both negative and positive.

[Sedgistan]

Less snark please.

Also, the debate on Hell is not relevant here. Please do not continue that threadjack.

[Philippedafos]

Support.

[Cormac Stark]

Having received some information from the author of the proposal, I've decided to give BearNation the benefit of the doubt and acknowledge that no nominee for commendation is perfect, so I will not be counter-campaigning against this after all. That isn't to say I support it, but we'll see how the votes fall without a spirited and perhaps misguided counter-campaign. I would still at least suggest revising the language related to Gay to reflect something closer to the real circumstances, because it is not, at present, a safe haven for all.

I do hope that BearNation, as well as Gay as a region, will consider some of the concerns I've expressed here and think about making a region that is supposed to be welcoming to all LGBT NationStates players actually welcoming to all LGBT NationStates players.

[Cora II]

My stance was first positive to this draft and Nominee's commendworthiness, but...

After becoming better aware of Gay's R/D stances, ultimately set the founder, I must decline my positive first impressions, as it is: Every human being's right to enjoy the fun and amusement of the Art of region crashing without prejudices, including LGBTQ folks.

Until that intolerant, prejudiced stance remain unchanged concerning R/D affiliation of the leadership of Gay, all commendation proposals for either the founder or the region will meet strong opposition from The HQ citadel of Cimmeria.

Human beings' sexual orientation isn't and can't ever be any kind determinant of affiliation in the R/D reality.

(psssst. LBGT folks are welcomed to join our raids. With few militant homos, or violent transsexuals we could paint few regions with the rainbow colours. No guestions asked. )

- Hetero Raider Witch-Queen -

[We Are Not the NSA]

Personally, I find the discrimination against raiders to be a bit hypocritical, but completely understandable. My opinion has not changed and I still give my support.