[Draft] Liberate The Black Riders

[Naginii]

A moderator is not a source of information regarding the games original development plans.

Your source does not prove that the original intent in development was to have an "invasion game".

You also failed to note where you got your source from.

Free advice: learn who Violet is (or most of us believe she is), before questioning the legitimacy of them as a source for information. I also wouldn't go around verbally smacking the veracity of long-time admins and mods, like Sedge, either. They actually DO usually know quite a bit about the game's development and intent, as it's their mandate to police and uphold the rules, regs and laws of the game of the day. That, and taking whacks at them is not a great way to make longterm friends or influence your cause.

[The Silver Sentinel]

. Your moral objections, hatred and intolerance of it, doesn't give you the moral right to deny the regional sovereignty of others.

Could the same thing be said about Mall's attempt to liberate Haven? Or for that matter, do you guys give two shits about the regional sovereignty of others? The Silver Isles, Ixnay, Hippiedom, Planet X (and it's 1000 embassies), The total failure that was The Mountains to The East. You guys really could care less when you are violating the regional sovereignty of of regions, but when the tables are turned on you, you play the "Oh but we're the natives card". Bullshit.

Support!

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Difference is, we never pretend to care about it

[The Silver Sentinel]

Difference is, we never pretend to care about it

Then you lose that right with TBR as well. I personally believe the best thing that can happen is turning the TBR into a permanent warzone, much like Christmas or The Mountains to The East.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I believe someone requested TBR end up like Christmas -

I've shot that down several times, even from our own side. Why? The only reason Christmas exists in the state that is does is because every time someone tries to raid it, all the defender sleepers there activate to stop them from doing so. Ergo, doing the same for TBR would require an ongoing drain on resource to continually defend it every time some two-bit new raiding org went "hey, let's raid TBR!" We want to be done with it, not to have to stop it from being refounded mockingly every other week. It being open serves no benefit to the international community besides encouraging raiding out of spite and malice, the kind of anger-driven raiding that took TBR under UGR, and never ends well - not at all the calculated, professional raiding done by the orgs. Leave it be, and I'll eventually refound, write a nice little WFE, pin a history dispatch, turn off exec del, and leave it open so long as people don't completely spam the RMB too much - as I do with almost all of my refounds. It'll stand there, and empty and dead monument to what it did and how it did it, with it's condemnation at the top. I personally believe that to be much more noble and internationally beneficial than an empty dump encouraging natives to raid.

-Souls

tl;dr - then we really would be forced to become "defenders" defending it, because someone would try and refound it, like we go after those regions and you stop us.

[The Silver Sentinel]

I believe someone requested TBR end up like Christmas -

I've shot that down several times, even from our own side. Why? The only reason Christmas exists in the state that is does is because every time someone tries to raid it, all the defender sleepers there activate to stop them from doing so. Ergo, doing the same for TBR would require an ongoing drain on resource to continually defend it every time some two-bit new raiding org went "hey, let's raid TBR!" We want to be done with it, not to have to stop it from being refounded mockingly every other week. It being open serves no benefit to the international community besides encouraging raiding out of spite and malice, the kind of anger-driven raiding that took TBR under UGR, and never ends well - not at all the calculated, professional raiding done by the orgs. Leave it be, and I'll eventually refound, write a nice little WFE, pin a history dispatch, turn off exec del, and leave it open so long as people don't completely spam the RMB too much - as I do with almost all of my refounds. It'll stand there, and empty and dead monument to what it did and how it did it, with it's condemnation at the top. I personally believe that to be much more noble and internationally beneficial than an empty dump encouraging natives to raid.

-Souls

tl;dr - then we really would be forced to become "defenders" defending it, because someone would try and refound it, like we go after those regions and you stop us.

I am failing to see the problem here.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

You see, we raiders don't want to spend resources on keeping it a warzone every time some 2-bit org decides they want TBR. We also don't want it to be refounded by some 2-bit org. Or some defender doing it for shits and giggles. etc. Ergo, we found it most efficient to lock it up now, and refound for good.

or, from another angle - it won't be a warzone unless we continually defend it, as y'all do christmas. If we stop giving a shit, it'll be just refounded, as if y'all stopped defending Christmas. Neither of those are desirable outcomes.

[The Silver Sentinel]

Neither of those are desirable outcomes.

Only because it wouldn't be under Raiderdom control. Let me put it this way okay? Say for some strange reason, Rav CTE'd okay? I will bet every dollar that I will ever own that raiders would pile in the UDL and every other jump point we have that Rav has founded and refound them just because. You see it works both ways Souls. You are making the argument based on the fact you seem to think I am some morally aligned defender. Nothing could be father from the truth. There are for instance regions I wouldn't lift a finger to help. I defend because I like to defend, and nothing would please me more than watching DEN have to actually defend TBR every other week or so, because someone gets some ambitions.

And in the great scheme of things, what difference would a liberation make? The Mountains to The East was damn near refounded by TBR, even with a lib in place, so what would be the difference here?

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Neither of those are desirable outcomes.

Only because it wouldn't be under Raiderdom control. Let me put it this way okay? Say for some strange reason, Rav CTE'd okay? I will bet every dollar that I will ever own that raiders would pile in the UDL and every other jump point we have that Rav has founded and refound them just because. You see it works both ways Souls. You are making the argument based on the fact you seem to think I am some morally aligned defender. Nothing could be father from the truth. There are for instance regions I wouldn't lift a finger to help. I defend because I like to defend, and nothing would please me more than watching DEN have to actually defend TBR every other week or so, because someone gets some ambitions.

And in the great scheme of things, what difference would a liberation make? The Mountains to The East was damn near refounded by TBR, even with a lib in place, so what would be the difference here?

K let's backtrack - "I personally believe the best thing that can happen is turning the TBR into a permanent warzone." is how we started. I stated it won't ever be, because we won't waste resources on defending it over time - the only two alternatives we'll end up with are refounding it now, or letting whoever wins the squabble over it do so - the latter of which we see as undesirable, hence our current actions.

Unless it was a DEAT, probably not Though we did tag it once when that happened. It it was a deat? Maybe. That's sort of the point. People would take TBR just for the name, not sit and let it be a warzone.

I don't think I've ever said, beyond a joking counter, that TBR should be left for the "natives." It's only a valid counter to those who go on about how liberation are only meant to be used to allow a native community to access a region, or how liberation should not be weapons of politics. I'll use it, sure, but I'm firmly under the belief that, like it or not, they are used as a weapon when update tactics fail. That's why I use whatever I have to to fight then down

I'm sure it would please you, but it's not going to happen. We'd literally rather see someone take it than pour people in to recover it every other week.

It would be more difficult, merely. As I said to cora -

We'll be done a lot sooner if ya don't interfere At this point, it won't be abandoned by choice- a liberation just makes things more difficult.

I don't expect to make you not support anything that would make our lives more difficult, but I will call bullshit on those who do preach of not using the SC as a weapon against natives when they turn it on us because "we deserve it." Mainly because that's a slippery slope leading to who actually "deserves it." Nazis? Raiders? Leftists? Those jerks in that one region who were mean to me once?

[The Silver Sentinel]

You seem to be forgetting that these are extraordinary circumstances that people don't usually envisage. The fact that TBR has literally caused more destruction than any other organization wholly justifies the extraordinary measure of liberating it, just so it can't be refounded as a shrine. More preferable would be a mod refounding it and destroying it much like the allies destroyed Spandau Prison but I digress and no I am not comparing you to Nazi's so don't even go there, it is an analogy. But seeing as how that is not going to happen, I am all for letting it swing in the breeze.

I call bullshit that you guys will get tired of defending it. You say that now, but if the chips were down, you're not going to let someone else refound it.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

You seem to be forgetting that these are extraordinary circumstances that people don't usually envisage. The fact that TBR has literally caused more destruction than any other organization wholly justifies the extraordinary measure of liberating it, just so it can't be refounded as a shrine. More preferable would be a mod refounding it and destroying it much like the allies destroyed Spandau Prison but I digress and no I am not comparing you to Nazi's so don't even go there, it is an analogy. But seeing as how that is not going to happen, I am all for letting it swing in the breeze.

I call bullshit that you guys will get tired of defending it. You say that now, but if the chips were down, you're not going to let someone else refound it.

Is that counting all the raids by other orgs that natives just called TBR raids, because, thanks to tagging, all other orgs because synonymous with Riders for a time?

Have you forgotten, R/D is admin endorsed! And we all know what happened last time a mod used their godlike powahs in gameplay and messed with stuff behind the controls...

Well, you see, that's why I've been delegate for three months.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

also -

More preferable would be a mod refounding it and destroying it much like the allies destroyed Spandau Prison but I digress and no I am not comparing you to Nazi's so don't even go there, it is an analogy.

Do you understand the concept of an analogy?

a·nal·o·gy
əˈnaləjē
noun
a comparison between two things

[The Silver Sentinel]

You seem to be forgetting that these are extraordinary circumstances that people don't usually envisage. The fact that TBR has literally caused more destruction than any other organization wholly justifies the extraordinary measure of liberating it, just so it can't be refounded as a shrine. More preferable would be a mod refounding it and destroying it much like the allies destroyed Spandau Prison but I digress and no I am not comparing you to Nazi's so don't even go there, it is an analogy. But seeing as how that is not going to happen, I am all for letting it swing in the breeze.

I call bullshit that you guys will get tired of defending it. You say that now, but if the chips were down, you're not going to let someone else refound it.

Is that counting all the raids by other orgs that natives just called TBR raids, because, thanks to tagging, all other orgs because synonymous with Riders for a time?

A raid is a raid. An occupation is just an extended tag raid is all. You guys still put the same propaganda and advertising shit on the WFE.

Have you forgotten, R/D is admin endorsed! And we all know what happened last time a mod used their godlike powahs in gameplay and messed with stuff behind the controls...

Absolutely sweet dick all happened to Kryo other than being relieved for a few days.

Well, you see, that's why I've been delegate for three months.

I will admit you are dedicated to your cause, just as I am dedicated to my cause to make sure you guys don't have a moment's peace. *recalls Star Trek episode*

[The Silver Sentinel]

also -

More preferable would be a mod refounding it and destroying it much like the allies destroyed Spandau Prison but I digress and no I am not comparing you to Nazi's so don't even go there, it is an analogy.

Do you understand the concept of an analogy?

a·nal·o·gy
əˈnaləjē
noun
a comparison between two things

Okay then it was an example. Happy now? You know exactly what I meant, so lets not boil this down to that level of bullshit mmkay?

[We Are Not The ATF]

Is that counting all the raids by other orgs that natives just called TBR raids, because, thanks to tagging, all other orgs because synonymous with Riders for a time?

A raid is a raid. An occupation is just an extended tag raid is all. You guys still put the same propaganda and advertising shit on the WFE.

I believe that Souls is referring to what I like to call the "Black Raiders Displacement". You see, tag raiding, is useful to raiders in many ways. The most important use is advertising. Because tag raiding and occupations are considered to be the same thing, "raiding", and tag raiding happens to and affects so many more regions and nations than occupations, the org that tags the most becomes the most well known "raiding" region. This has had the affect of causing TBR to become THE raiders. If someone says "Region X has been raided!" the response is always "Darn you Black Riderrrrrrsssssss!!!" even though it was an LWU raid. Take The White Hope for example. The region was founded with the goal of combating the Black Riders, and just the black riders. However, as Souls's new wfe points out, TBR was just one of many raider orgs. However, the founder still blamed the Black Riders for the refound. This is because to almost all natives raiders are the Black Riders. Every successful TBH raid got put on TBH tally, but also gives a tally for TBR. That is why TBR were so well known. That is why the assumed raid count of TBR was so high. That is why TBR is so hated, while the rest of the raider orgs don't get the credit they deserve. TBR bears the burden of representing ever raider, even though it doesn't.

[The Silver Sentinel]

A raid is a raid. An occupation is just an extended tag raid is all. You guys still put the same propaganda and advertising shit on the WFE.

I believe that Souls is referring to what I like to call the "Black Raiders Displacement". You see, tag raiding, is useful to raiders in many ways. The most important use is advertising. Because tag raiding and occupations are considered to be the same thing, "raiding", and tag raiding happens to and affects so many more regions and nations than occupations, the org that tags the most becomes the most well known "raiding" region. This has had the affect of causing TBR to become THE raiders. If someone says "Region X has been raided!" the response is always "Darn you Black Riderrrrrrsssssss!!!" even though it was an LWU raid. Take The White Hope for example. The region was founded with the goal of combating the Black Riders, and just the black riders. However, as Souls's new wfe points out, TBR was just one of many raider orgs. However, the founder still blamed the Black Riders for the refound. This is because to almost all natives raiders are the Black Riders. Every successful TBH raid got put on TBH tally, but also gives a tally for TBR. That is why TBR were so well known. That is why the assumed raid count of TBR was so high. That is why TBR is so hated, while the rest of the raider orgs don't get the credit they deserve. TBR bears the burden of representing ever raider, even though it doesn't.

Great story. Was there a point to it I missed somewhere?

[We Are Not The ATF]

I believe that Souls is referring to what I like to call the "Black Raiders Displacement". You see, tag raiding, is useful to raiders in many ways. The most important use is advertising. Because tag raiding and occupations are considered to be the same thing, "raiding", and tag raiding happens to and affects so many more regions and nations than occupations, the org that tags the most becomes the most well known "raiding" region. This has had the affect of causing TBR to become THE raiders. If someone says "Region X has been raided!" the response is always "Darn you Black Riderrrrrrsssssss!!!" even though it was an LWU raid. Take The White Hope for example. The region was founded with the goal of combating the Black Riders, and just the black riders. However, as Souls's new wfe points out, TBR was just one of many raider orgs. However, the founder still blamed the Black Riders for the refound. This is because to almost all natives raiders are the Black Riders. Every successful TBH raid got put on TBH tally, but also gives a tally for TBR. That is why TBR were so well known. That is why the assumed raid count of TBR was so high. That is why TBR is so hated, while the rest of the raider orgs don't get the credit they deserve. TBR bears the burden of representing ever raider, even though it doesn't.

Great story. Was there a point to it I missed somewhere?

No, not really. I just thought that you misinterpreted what Souls said, and I didn't want anyone unfamiliar with the concept to not understand.

[The Silver Sentinel]

Great story. Was there a point to it I missed somewhere?

No, not really. I just thought that you misinterpreted what Souls said, and I didn't want anyone unfamiliar with the concept to not understand.

I see. No I didn't misinterpret Souls, I simply called bullshit.

[We Are Not The ATF]

No, not really. I just thought that you misinterpreted what Souls said, and I didn't want anyone unfamiliar with the concept to not understand.

I see. No I didn't misinterpret Souls, I simply called bullshit.

On what? The validity of what I previously said, or whether it is a valid argument in these circumstances?

[The Silver Sentinel]

I see. No I didn't misinterpret Souls, I simply called bullshit.

On what? The validity of what I previously said, or whether it is a valid argument in these circumstances?

On Souls argument not yours. Nothing you said really changed anything.

[We Are Not The ATF]

On what? The validity of what I previously said, or whether it is a valid argument in these circumstances?

On Souls argument not yours. Nothing you said really changed anything.

Okay, just trying to be helpful.

Reading back a page or two, I really have to ask you Chester: do you honestly believe that you aren't a moralist defender?

[The Silver Sentinel]

On Souls argument not yours. Nothing you said really changed anything.

Okay, just trying to be helpful.

Reading back a page or two, I really have to ask you Chester: do you honestly believe that you aren't a moralist defender?

Names not Chester, and no I am not a moralist defender. Also why would you need to read back a page or two? My comments are all on the last page.

[Valrifell]

Okay, just trying to be helpful.

Reading back a page or two, I really have to ask you Chester: do you honestly believe that you aren't a moralist defender?

Names not Chester, and no I am not a moralist defender. Also why would you need to read back a page or two? My comments are all on the last page.

If you ain't a moralist Defender, than you defend for shits 'n' giggles. Tell me, if you defend for shits 'n' giggles, why not defend TBR and have a blast with other Defender buddies? Right, because you think that'd be wrong, as in, immoral.

So, who are you trying to kid here? You're the standard model of a Moralist these days.

[SilverSentinel]

I am really against this, TBR needs to be refounded under the stewardship of Herohime aka Souls who has poured all his efforts into turning it all around from the events that coalesced to bring about the downfall of TBR. In my eyes he is responsible for the redemption nay salvation of The Black Riders.

[We Are Not The ATF]

Okay, just trying to be helpful.

Reading back a page or two, I really have to ask you Chester: do you honestly believe that you aren't a moralist defender?

Names not Chester, and no I am not a moralist defender. Also why would you need to read back a page or two? My comments are all on the last page.

Oh, excuse me. I was using the list of posts at the bottom of the post editing page, and I guessed how far back it was.

Anyways, are you sure about that? In my experience, fendas who are only in R/D for the kicks don't tend to shoot as much... Venom as you do. Usually Moralists are either defending to protect natives or to combat raiders. I don't see how you advocating for this liberation, or continuing to argue over its validity can be anything but attempting to combat raiders in a political theater. You don't mean to tell me that you consider this, arguing a pointless measure whose only purpose would be to cause grievances for raiders, to be defending do you? And if you do, why do you enjoy trying to take a region away from its rightful owners? Because I thought that you only defended because you enjoy defending. That sounds a lot more like the attitude a raider would have towards the situation.