[Draft] Commend The Black Riders

[United RussoAsia]

Best to let TBR die.

The "natives" should leave the region, as I've not much respect for them trying to salvage that sinking ship. The actual natives have moved on. I'm ok with that.

[Flash of Riptide]

And immortalize the actions of people who simply were opportunistic.

Right, because we should definitely immortalize the most opportunistic, like UGR. Did he succeed in creating a well-functioning government?

Your proposal doesn't event deal with UGR, who was a principal figure in this.

No kidding. He was the one who received the most endorsements at the initial update and resigned because of "pressure". Did he ever do anything but retag the region with "Seized by The Insane Region"?

Your proposal starts with the actions of Harenhime and ends with Harenhime.

Exactly. He's the one who has brought everything together. Tell me, do you suppose that if UGR was in his place, he would have done so well in maintaining the region? (No, because remember, he resigned because of "pressure".

Harenhime was not the first delegate when the founder CTEd.

UGR is irrelevant for everything but being the first delegate.

I don't think that you have the experience necessary to write a proposal like this because, to my knowledge, you weren't there to experience the initial events.

Yep, today must be my first day on NS.

Best to let TBR die.

The "natives" should leave the region, as I've not much respect for them trying to salvage that sinking ship. The actual natives have moved on. I'm ok with that.

For what it's worth, the current government and endorsements are not going to leave TBR. Would you like DEN to seize it once again as a trophy?

[United RussoAsia]

Best to let TBR die.

The "natives" should leave the region, as I've not much respect for them trying to salvage that sinking ship. The actual natives have moved on. I'm ok with that.

For what it's worth, the current government and endorsements are not going to leave TBR. Would you like DEN to seize it once again as a trophy?

That region is tainted by cheating. I will not work with or recognise it's inhabitants, whoever they maybe be.

[Australian Antarctica]

For what it's worth, the current government and endorsements are not going to leave TBR. Would you like DEN to seize it once again as a trophy?

That region is tainted by cheating. I will not work with or recognise it's inhabitants, whoever they maybe be.

That's like saying you won't recognize, well, pick any country throughout history. They've all done bad. The US, Russia, Germany, the Koreas, China., Etc.

[United RussoAsia]

That region is tainted by cheating. I will not work with or recognise it's inhabitants, whoever they maybe be.

That's like saying you won't recognize, well, pick any country throughout history. They've all done bad. The US, Russia, Germany, the Koreas, China., Etc.

This is a game in which there are cheaters. I will not recognise them. Raiding is bad, but legitimate. I will recognise them.

Nor will I recognise forum destroyers and those that harbour them.

[Australian Antarctica]

That's like saying you won't recognize, well, pick any country throughout history. They've all done bad. The US, Russia, Germany, the Koreas, China., Etc.

This is a game in which there are cheaters. I will not recognise them. Raiding is bad, but legitimate. I will recognise them.

Nor will I recognise forum destroyers and those that harbour them.

We are not cheaters. They are. There is a big difference between us and them. We are now TBR, they are now DEN. TBR is no longer evil. DEN is. Hate on DEN, not TBR. In addition, TBR never cheated. Some of their people did, but not the entire region.

[Flash of Riptide]

For all intents and purposes, as AA has said multiple times, TBR is no longer composed of the same people. The raiding community has moved on to DEN.

As the condemnation for TBR's past actions remain in place due to their relevancy at the time of that proposal's passing, it should remain there, much like how Macedon's condemnation still exists.

[Sainterre]

For all intents and purposes, as AA has said multiple times, TBR is no longer composed of the same people. The raiding community has moved on to DEN.

As the condemnation for TBR's past actions remain in place due to their relevancy at the time of that proposal's passing, it should remain there, much like how Macedon's condemnation still exists.

And as AA said, they don't think that they are worthy of a commendation before, so your case is even weaker.

[Australian Antarctica]

For all intents and purposes, as AA has said multiple times, TBR is no longer composed of the same people. The raiding community has moved on to DEN.

As the condemnation for TBR's past actions remain in place due to their relevancy at the time of that proposal's passing, it should remain there, much like how Macedon's condemnation still exists.

And as AA said, they don't think that they are worthy of a commendation before, so your case is even weaker.

I don't think we do. Really, no one else in the region has voiced their opinion. I just wish people would have a better reason to be against it than "TBR Cheated" or "TBR Bad"

[RiderSyl]

Here's a better reason:

You guys haven't even come close to earning a Commendation yet.

[Australian Antarctica]

Here's a better reason:

You guys haven't even come close to earning a Commendation yet.

I realize that, in fact, I said that.

[RiderSyl]

Here's a better reason:

You guys haven't even come close to earning a Commendation yet.

I realize that, in fact, I said that.

Then your wish for people having a better reason already came true.

[Flash of Riptide]

The words of both former raiders smarting about the loss of their beloved region and the members of the current government do not count in a commendation (for different reasons). The first is obvious; the second, those who are about to be commended will be more likely to act humble in situations others would not.

[Sainterre]

The first is obvious; the second, those who are about to be commended will be more likely to act humble in situations others would not.

I can assure you that this will not happen. So, you are commending them on keeping their region stable and everything? If that's the case, let's hand out badges willy nilly. They don't deserve a commendation.

[New Grestin]

Entirely opposed. We already did this dance, like, last week. It's getting rather old, rather quickly.

[Australian Antarctica]

Entirely opposed. We already did this dance, like, last week. It's getting rather old, rather quickly.

Really, another one was proposed already? It's quite sad that we are the last ones to find out.

[RiderSyl]

The words of both former raiders smarting about the loss of their beloved region and the members of the current government do not count in a commendation (for different reasons). The first is obvious

I'm guessing this is pointed at me. I'm currently banned from TBR/DEN, a member of the Eastern Pacific Sovereign Army, and realigned as a moderate defender.
If you're going to dismiss what I say, then it's solely because you don't like what I'm saying.

[Ramaeus]

-sip-

They've (the current residents of TBR) set up a regional government by taking advantage of mod action and hatred against TBR, survived less than two months due mostly to DEN moving their high influence nations out of TBR, and now you want to commend them? They've survived most assuredly through luck and swarming, rather than skill.

Give them several years of continued success and you might have a slightly more convincing case for a commendation.

[Naginii]

Commend a region's new population for forcibly taking-over a founderless region, re-tagging it, colonizing it and turfing-out the natives.

First off, what happened in TBR is just part of the R/D game. It happens and fair dues to the raiders who won the region. Nice job.

That said, it's nothing you should be commended for. If DEN or TBH did the same thing in the same manner, you'd be calling it piracy and demanding a Liberation. Regardless of where you fall on the R/D line, what the new TBR natives did was commit offensive warfare. Raiding for territory. In the days of Macedon, this organization drew the line against that kind of conduct. Recently, several nations (many of whom call the new TBR home) tried to get DEN condemned for the same behavior, which they haven’t yet committed. Now these same people want that kind of raiding endorsed.

They’re crusaders, and that’s cool. It’s great to have a purpose….but if you become what you hate, that doesn’t justify your actions. Don't pretend that because you ally yourselves with defenders that somehow makes the means and ends noble or moral.

The automatic defense, "they deserved it, they're raiders," undermines and erodes the moral argument as one group allows itself to behave either exactly as, or more extreme than, the opposition. It means because of a moral stance, you feel entitled to operate above, outside and in defiance of mores, rules and codes of conduct. Read your (recent) history: wars, torture, pollution, corruption, etc. all have been excused thusly. In NSland, it really isn’t any different. Allowing one group to commit what others have been condemned for isn’t just hypocrisy, it’s also a nice big trap that’ll snare you the next time you try to condemn or liberate a region under similar circumstances.

For years raiders have been called the worst kind of "scum" etc. on the gamemap, but most raider groups don't normally take-and-hold regions for the purposes of colonization. The people who occupy TBR now, regardless of what the press releases their friends wrote, took a region in as epic a manner as any raider ever did. They pulled-off an opportunistic raid to eradicate one group for another's interest based purely, and entirely, on hatred.

So, pass this proposal as written, and offensive-style warfare raiding of the TBR type has official WASC sanction.

Further, making this acceptable also means defenders lose a bit of narrative: the moral highground worldview in being above the conduct raiders use. Additionally, praise them for this behavior, and you make it that much harder to condemn real raiders for the same conduct. Not saying you can’t, but you’ll have an itchy time trying to square the circle and answer the question.

What's good for one side, is good for all in the legal R/D gameplay. That said, raiding for territory starts a war even raiders don’t want, because it really pushes people out of the game, brings more attention from game officials and makes it harder to recruit.

Being in the right isn't about saying the right words, or waving the right flag, it's in how you behave. If you behave like aggro raiders, you should get treated like aggro raiders. Raiders rightly have never been commended for destroying and re-colonizing regions, many have been condemned, and defenders playing raider shouldn't be treated any differently.

[The Forsworn Knights]

As a resident, and the head drafter of the constitution, I oppose this bill. Not because we are not doing good, but because we have not done anything good enough to deserve and commendation. All we are doing is rebuilding, nothing more. We haven't helped liberate or defend any other regions, nor do we really continue the fight against DEN. Please, do not make it appear as if we are glory-hounds. We are not. I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to eventually have a commendation, once we have earned it. That's my two cents, nitpick it as you wish.

As a non-resident of the region and having no connection with the current government, I'm not a glory-hound to say this:

The delegate, Constitution framers, and government officials are doing something that hasn't been done ever. By having your presence in the region, you are still continuing the fight against DEN. The region has earned its commendation for already marking its place in the history books. Former TBR members may shrug the victory off with excuses such as "raiding doesn't need a region, only a community", but will jump at the chance of taking the region back if any flaw in regional security is discovered. Defenders may scoff at the idea of you occupying TBR, but at the end of the day, did they ever step up to endorse UGR when Ridersyl attempted a defense? An infinitesimal number. It was a victory for the NS community, the majority of them being natives wanting to be left alone. These nations are often marginalized in greater NS affairs, but they are the ones who form its core, keep the game running, and continue to fight their harassers at every given chance.

There is a word, it's called a coup.

[United RussoAsia]

I just wish people would have a better reason to be against it than "TBR Cheated" or "TBR Bad"

For the region to be commended would stand as a monument to all that those who have ever resided in the region have done.
To keep it living, again, monumentizes it.

I wish to see it either die, or live quietly, out of the public eye.

[Arctriul]

This is commending a group for removing a region's sovereignty. so...again...not voting for this. xD

[United RussoAsia]

This is commending a group for removing a region's sovereignty. so...again...not voting for this. xD

This may be the one time I agree with you.

Don't expect it to happen elsewhere.

[Arctriul]

This is commending a group for removing a region's sovereignty. so...again...not voting for this. xD

This may be the one time I agree with you.

Don't expect it to happen elsewhere.

You may be wise not to be posting that you'll merely disagree with me for the sake of disagreeing opposed to because of legitimate reasons. Makes you look petty as fuck.

[United RussoAsia]

This may be the one time I agree with you.

Don't expect it to happen elsewhere.

You may be wise not to be posting that you'll merely disagree with me for the sake of disagreeing opposed to because of legitimate reasons. Makes you look petty as fuck.

Nowhere did I say I disagree with you for the sake of it, it just appears you and I have highly clashing views on many topics.
I can think of a few.
Anyhow, this is threadjack.