[PASSED] Condemn The Pacific

[Elke and Elba]

[If this begins to look like it'll pass i'll begin swaying some votes with a mass WA.

The threats never end do they? But hey whatever. If you want to spend the bucks to try and sway votes, be my guest. Max will love you for it.

*sigh* I'm standing with Chester on this, even though he once childishly declared that he will vote against anything of mine which goes up on vote.

Because that threat in itself is a far more childish proposition that what Chester said. I'm not very sure if you are keeping to your self-imposed promise that you declared in the Sanctum thread, because if this is representative of that, I think it only goes downhill, Rifty.

[Anozia]

Wow, quite the witch hunt started against this region our nation is in.Probably supported by frustrated raiders that cannot win against it (the illness in that resolution is contagious, I'm starting to...oh well).

As for this latest madness of a resolution that will attack a tremendous amount of innocents, let's go through the shortcomings I can spot myself although I don't know everything:

has imposed dictatorship and tyranny on the native population of The Pacific ever since

That seriously need proofs.

Noting that the NPO has carried out cruel campaigns of subversion, invasion, and subjugation against other prominent regions, including fellow Pacific regions, in relentless pursuit of wholesale imperialism and cultural destruction against the communities of these regions,

Lies, or it's extremely old, and thus inappropriate as an answer to a present condition.

Recalling the strong support of the NPO for consecutive coups d'etat led by UPS Rail and Great Bight in 2004 against the legitimate government of The North Pacific, preying upon the inactivity of much beloved former Delegate Magicality in order to bring The North Pacific under NPO hegemony,

Why not condemn regions for hosting big dinosaurs that, by walking around, crushed smaller dinosaurs coming from another region?It seems this just dig old personal grudges that have nothing to do in the Security Council.

Observing that former NPO Senators Gasponia and Karpathos supported the 2013 coup d'etat led by Milograd against the Coalition of The South Pacific, the region's democratic, legitimate government, in favor of a brutal dictatorial regime that displaced thousands of native nations from the region,

Here the authors are lying to gain votes.I was there, thus I know the official stance of The Pacific was neutrality on that matter.I don't know about the "NPO", but I will come back to that later.

Acknowledging the brutal subjugation of Lazarus, which has seen the lawless overthrow of the People's Republic of Lazarus and the displacement of hordes of native nations in a coup d'etat executed by rogue Delegate Stujenske but orchestrated by NPO Emperor Krulltopia, Regent Feux, and former Senators A mean old man and Milograd, utilizing support from mercenary invaders attracted to support the coup with extravagant promises of power and influence,

A complete absurdity. Nothing in The Pacific was anywhere like this.As for "NPO", see below.

Asserting that the actions of the NPO against the native population of The Pacific and the communities of other regions constitute an affront to regional sovereignty, self-determination, and democratic governance, and to the interregional peace and goodwill that this institution is charged with upholding,

Trying to force "democratic governance" even if it goes against "self-determination" show the true self of this opposition: a personal attack trying to lure in others, even if it doesn't make sense.

Urging the native nations of The Pacific to demand reform from the NPO, to bring an end to its domestic tyranny and foreign imperialism, so that one day The Pacific may reconcile with the interregional community and this condemnation will no longer be necessary,

More baseless accusations and badmouthing.

To finish, the greatest absurdity of this resolution is that:

[...]New Pacific Order (NPO)[...]NPO[...]NPO[...]NPO[...]NPO[...]NPO[...]NPO[...]NPO[...]NPO[...]NPO[...]NPO[...]

This resolution is clearly attacking The Pacific while aiming at something completely different.
The contradiction is obvious whenever the offending author of the resolution say that the NPO attempt to rule something or to be installed somewhere, showing that the accusation is completely unrelated to a region.
Like I mentioned before, the accusations are not about The Pacific, and while I don't know all the things that the NPO may do, this just prove this doesn't reach to nations and regions.

Don't be fooled.Check the real actions and discussions of The Pacific, check what really was done (or not done).And see by yourself that this resolution is baseless as an attack against a region.

[Equestria Skyway]

100% for, no question about it for me. All of these crimes can not go so unnoticed in my opinion, and the things I see some of The Pacific's nations say in response just seems silly to use as come backs against it.

[Rihannon]

Asserting that the actions of the NPO against the native population of The Pacific and the communities of other regions constitute an affront to regional sovereignty, self-determination, and democratic governance, and to the interregional peace and goodwill that this institution is charged with upholding,

Urging the native nations of The Pacific to demand reform from the NPO, to bring an end to its domestic tyranny and foreign imperialism, so that one day The Pacific may reconcile with the interregional community and this condemnation will no longer be necessary,

Oh thank you guys for graciously informing us, a helpless little Pacifican, of how oppressed we are.

Joking aside, we find the Pacific to be an extremely friendly and stable region under the guise of our dedicated leaders and will undoubtedly oppose this unjust proposal.

Hail Pacifica!

[Religionous]

This appears to be the final resolution in the anti-Stujenske/anti-NPO witch hunt.

[RiderSyl]

This appears to be the final resolution in the anti-Stujenske/anti-NPO witch hunt.

They saved the best for last. I can't WAIT for this to pass.

[California Prime]

JPT's witch hunt against the Pacific needs to end.

[TAO the Wanderer]

Having been a long-time Watcher of the NPO and its actions in the greater NS world, I really see no merit for this Condemnation. The Pacific has once again acted in the way one has come to expect from The Pacific. Does anyone truly believe that any SC declaration will be meaningful in the eyes of the lead players in The Pacific? I seriously doubt it. What this will do is add a shiny badge to the region ... and ANY badge these days is a sign of Honor even if the Honor is a Condemnation ... because it implies the players of the region did something meaningful in the eyes of the greater Game.

My hat (if I wore one) would be tipped in thanks to The Pacific for giving us all another injection of "cheap thrill DRAMA". I wish other players in other regions had the same balls and brains that have been exhibited by TP to make such contributions to our collective enjoyment.

[Funkadelia]

JPT's witch hunt against the Pacific needs to end.

It's not a witch hunt if they're actually doing things.

[Great Brigantia]

Having been a long-time Watcher of the NPO and its actions in the greater NS world, I really see no merit for this Condemnation. The Pacific has once again acted in the way one has come to expect from The Pacific. Does anyone truly believe that any SC declaration will be meaningful in the eyes of the lead players in The Pacific? I seriously doubt it. What this will do is add a shiny badge to the region ... and ANY badge these days is a sign of Honor even if the Honor is a Condemnation ... because it implies the players of the region did something meaningful in the eyes of the greater Game.

I don't think anyone believes this will have a significant impact on NPO policy. Where this may have an impact is on the number and quality of players the NPO is able to attract. The NPO has been known to attract reputable players through the use of deception regarding the regime's true aims. This resolution will make that all the more difficult for them to do.

This resolution may also have a diplomatic impact. The NPO has also been known to whitewash and wait out the fallout from its acts of aggression in order to reestablish the relations it has lost. This resolution will serve as a reminder for regional governments with short memories that may consider reestablishment of relations in the future.

My hat (if I wore one) would be tipped in thanks to The Pacific for giving us all another injection of "cheap thrill DRAMA". I wish other players in other regions had the same balls and brains that have been exhibited by TP to make such contributions to our collective enjoyment.

Nothing about coups and invasions is enjoyable to the communities that spend years building up regions only to have their constructive efforts demolished by those who can only find entertainment and enjoyment in destruction. The Security Council should serve communities and those who build them, not those who attempt to destroy them for their own amusement.

[Flanderlion]

Having been a long-time Watcher of the NPO and its actions in the greater NS world, I really see no merit for this Condemnation. The Pacific has once again acted in the way one has come to expect from The Pacific. Does anyone truly believe that any SC declaration will be meaningful in the eyes of the lead players in The Pacific? I seriously doubt it. What this will do is add a shiny badge to the region ... and ANY badge these days is a sign of Honor even if the Honor is a Condemnation ... because it implies the players of the region did something meaningful in the eyes of the greater Game.

My hat (if I wore one) would be tipped in thanks to The Pacific for giving us all another injection of "cheap thrill DRAMA". I wish other players in other regions had the same balls and brains that have been exhibited by TP to make such contributions to our collective enjoyment.

Do we get a badge for this?
Now its a tough choice. Either, vote for lies, but get a nice badge, or vote for the truth, and get nothing.
I think I might change my vote to for.

[Excidium Planetis]

Recognizing that the New Pacific Order (NPO), the regime that has ruled The Pacific for more than a decade, was founded by Francos Spain in 2003 after seizing the Delegacy of The Pacific from Thedoc with the support of invading forces, and has imposed dictatorship and tyranny on the native population of The Pacific ever since,

Rebuking the NPO for its oppressive political nature, which has included institution of a ludicrously low limit on the free exchange of support between World Assembly nations throughout NPO history, and the severe suppression of any form of dissenting speech which calls into question the actions or legitimacy of the NPO, fostering a brutal police state in which the native population has no say in the affairs of their own region,

The Excidian ambassador can no longer hold her tongue. She had quietly voted against each of these ridiculous resolutions, content to remain in silence because the words of the resolutions were at least true, even if she disagreed with the resolutions' intent. But this had gone far enough.

"The claims in this resolution that native nations in the Pacific have no say in the government is completely false, unsupported by the statements of native Pacificans. I have witnessed firsthand the cheering masses of Pacificans from all nations, Hailing Krulltopia as the rightful leader of The Pacific. This is not a tyrannical regime that suppresses its member states, it is an authoritarian regime supported by its member states. To Condemn The Pacific for lies would be a stain on this Council! Hasn't The Pacific committed enough crimes? Do you really have to make up more?"

[The Stalker]

You may not agree with the language used, but how are they untrue?

TP has had one of the lowest endorsement caps of all the GCR, ejecting anyone who goes above it. And has ejected those who speak out against NPO government. Krull and the NPO have maintained power this way for many years, naturally only those loyal to them are allowed to remain. The rest of TP's masses are woefully ignorant of the government they are propping up.

[Excidium Planetis]

You may not agree with the language used, but how are they untrue?

TP has had one of the lowest endorsement caps of all the GCR, ejecting anyone who goes above it. And has ejected those who speak out against NPO government. Krull and the NPO have maintained power this way for many years, naturally only those loyal to them are allowed to remain. The rest of TP's masses are woefully ignorant of the government they are propping up.

"Then are you accusing the natives of the region from being blind and deaf? Krulltopia and its allies have made it plain as day throughout the whole region that there's an endorsement cap. They have given nations fair warning before ejecting them for breaking this limit. The whole region echoes with praise for the region's leadership. I do not believe the natives are so impossibly stupid that they are ignorant of the facts.

"And if only loyal nations are left, do they not have control in their region? They do not appear willing to defy Krulltopia's rule, even when many have come forward from other regions crying out that they live under a tyrannical regime. They instead support their rulers. If they want to live under a crackpot dictator, that is of their own free choice."

[TAO the Wanderer]

I don't think anyone believes this will have a significant impact on NPO policy. Where this may have an impact is on the number and quality of players the NPO is able to attract. The NPO has been known to attract reputable players through the use of deception regarding the regime's true aims. This resolution will make that all the more difficult for them to do.

I said I have been watching TP for years ... 11 of them. In that time, the leaders of TP have never wasted time on the RMB or the forum deceiving anyone about their true aims. The NPO may be secretive but it has never been deceptive. They have purposed to grab the other GCRs since Francos Spain said 'boo'.

This resolution may also have a diplomatic impact. The NPO has also been known to whitewash and wait out the fallout from its acts of aggression in order to reestablish the relations it has lost. This resolution will serve as a reminder for regional governments with short memories that may consider reestablishment of relations in the future.

And that is an action taken only by the NPO? FRA did it in the past and many other groups do the same today. It is why this is a "political" game. I agree that GCRs might want to be exceedingly more cautious in the future but diplomatic exchanges area a far cry from plans for a covert coup. Regions already should be thinking about and weighing their justifications for ANY diplomatic exchanges.

Nothing about coups and invasions is enjoyable to the communities that spend years building up regions only to have their constructive efforts demolished by those who can only find entertainment and enjoyment in destruction. The Security Council should serve communities and those who build them, not those who attempt to destroy them for their own amusement.

You presume to speak for me but I did not speak such words ... neither should you. If you want to know what I said, ask me; I am the expert on what I said.

Coups and invasions are a part of this game and any region dropping its guard enough to be taken has usually brought it down on themselves. Betrayal, through heinous in my opinion, is still a common aspect of NS and I am thankful there are more players with integrity than without. Yet coup and invasion are not only for "entertainment and enjoyment in destruction" ... unless you are talking about TBR. Coup and invasion are tools within the political arsenal to effect regional change. Coup and invasion are also the same tools used by the displaced to retake that which was taken. I don't hear you denouncing that. You are against the NPO's use of the tools but not the Opposition's use of the tools. Perhaps you are jealous the NPO can pull off a stunt like this in the modern game ... I guess because i will not speak for you ... but I will repeat what I said: I wish other players in other regions had the same balls and brains that have been exhibited by TP to make such contributions to our collective enjoyment. And YES, I use the word "enjoyment" because in the end, the pumped and burned adrenalin of the coup and counter-coup was a thrill ride.

[The Stalker]

"Then are you accusing the natives of the region from being blind and deaf?

I'm saying most people just log on and do their issues, they aren't really aware of the larger elements of gameplay at work.

"And if only loyal nations are left, do they not have control in their region? They do not appear willing to defy Krulltopia's rule,

Yea because those who did are gone. The region remains in the hand of the ruling elite of the NPO, and nobody expects that to change. But I don't see how your arguments invalidate those clauses. Simply put that is how they've maintained power by taking these aggressive measures.

[The Lanthanides]

I've voted for, but I still can't believe that we're condemning a feeder region. A question to all you vets out there: has this been done before?

[Excidium Planetis]

"Then are you accusing the natives of the region from being blind and deaf?

I'm saying most people just log on and do their issues, they aren't really aware of the larger elements of gameplay at work.

Those nations also aren't aware of the fact that they should join the WA and endorse Krulltopia. So I don't see how they ignorantly support a regime.

"And if only loyal nations are left, do they not have control in their region? They do not appear willing to defy Krulltopia's rule,

Yea because those who did are gone. The region remains in the hand of the ruling elite of the NPO, and nobody expects that to change. But I don't see how your arguments invalidate those clauses. Simply put that is how they've maintained power by taking these aggressive measures.

Those who did have most likely been gone for years. Krulltopia has ruled TP for 6 years, and the regime he leads has been in place longer than that. Krulltopia was put in power by the natives, and remains in power by the natives. Claiming that TP is a police state that oppresses its members is deceptive and ignores the fact that its natives don't feel oppressed, openly support Krull, and police themselves.

[RiderSyl]

Those nations also aren't aware of the fact that they should join the WA and endorse Krulltopia. So I don't see how they ignorantly support a regime.

Those who did have most likely been gone for years. Krulltopia has ruled TP for 6 years, and the regime he leads has been in place longer than that. Krulltopia was put in power by the natives, and remains in power by the natives. Claiming that TP is a police state that oppresses its members is deceptive and ignores the fact that its natives don't feel oppressed, openly support Krull, and police themselves.

So...

- The only way you accidentally support a regime is if you're endorsing the delegate, except for all those ways that non-WA players help support a regime.
- An entire group got pointed out on the RMB and purged for voting for on Krull's commendation repeal inside the region. You know nothing, Jon Snow.
- Everyone allowed in the region happens to love it there, because if they didn't love it there, they wouldn't be allowed in the region. This is not evidence that the region is awesome. Stop it.

[California Prime]

Those nations also aren't aware of the fact that they should join the WA and endorse Krulltopia. So I don't see how they ignorantly support a regime.

Those who did have most likely been gone for years. Krulltopia has ruled TP for 6 years, and the regime he leads has been in place longer than that. Krulltopia was put in power by the natives, and remains in power by the natives. Claiming that TP is a police state that oppresses its members is deceptive and ignores the fact that its natives don't feel oppressed, openly support Krull, and police themselves.

So...

- The only way you accidentally support a regime is if you're endorsing the delegate, except for all those ways that non-WA players help support a regime.
- An entire group got pointed out on the RMB and purged for voting for on Krull's commendation repeal inside the region. You know nothing, Jon Snow.
- Everyone allowed in the region happens to love it there, because if they didn't love it there, they wouldn't be allowed in the region. This is not evidence that the region is awesome. Stop it.

That's a funny statement, since a few minutes of checking your facts would invalidate what you have said.
1--Any nations who don't participate enough to even know what their region's politics are (and we get regular dispatches from the leadership, and they also appear on the regional message board nearly every day for any of us to converse with), OBVIOUSLY don't participate enough to notice a "condemned" badge on the regional fact board. Hence, the proposal has no meaning or effect whatsoever.
2--Take a look at the activity logs for nearly every nation that has been ejected over this, almost no REAL Pacific nations, only brand new alts that were founded for the sole purpose of spewing lies and insults on our message boards, or nations that in the last few days had moved to the Pacific from other regions.....for the sole purpose of attacking our leadership and trying to foster dissent on the message boards. Those aren't member nations, they are hostile invaders and were treated as such, to the delight of the rest of us who live in the Pacific.

We are Pacificans, we are happy with our region and we are proud of our region's accomplishments, stability, and longetivity. We are unified and strong, and no amount of silly reactionary proposals written by people like JPT (who clearly has more issues with our regional ideology than he does with any of our actions) and approved by those who are tricked into buying into such lies and hypocrisy will change this.

[Aleisyr]

Those nations also aren't aware of the fact that they should join the WA and endorse Krulltopia. So I don't see how they ignorantly support a regime.

Those who did have most likely been gone for years. Krulltopia has ruled TP for 6 years, and the regime he leads has been in place longer than that. Krulltopia was put in power by the natives, and remains in power by the natives. Claiming that TP is a police state that oppresses its members is deceptive and ignores the fact that its natives don't feel oppressed, openly support Krull, and police themselves.

So...

- The only way you accidentally support a regime is if you're endorsing the delegate, except for all those ways that non-WA players help support a regime.
- An entire group got pointed out on the RMB and purged for voting for on Krull's commendation repeal inside the region. You know nothing, Jon Snow.
- Everyone allowed in the region happens to love it there, because if they didn't love it there, they wouldn't be allowed in the region. This is not evidence that the region is awesome. Stop it.

Are you referring to these RMB posts?

https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb_s ... he+Pacific

If so, all but 5 of those nations remain in The Pacific. Of the 5 that are no longer in the Pacific, none were ejected. They instead chose to relocate on their own.

[Excidium Planetis]

So...

- The only way you accidentally support a regime is if you're endorsing the delegate, except for all those ways that non-WA players help support a regime.

I don't see how answering issues helps support a regime. If that's all these players are doing, how do they support the regime? And if they are actively involved enough to support the regime... how are they unaware of Krulltopia's policies?

- An entire group got pointed out on the RMB and purged for voting for on Krull's commendation repeal inside the region. You know nothing, Jon Snow.

Bold claims that are refuted by Pacific natives. Care to provide any evidence? Or are those more lies?

- Everyone allowed in the region happens to love it there, because if they didn't love it there, they wouldn't be allowed in the region. This is not evidence that the region is awesome. Stop it.

I never claimed the region was awesome. I only claimed its natives were not prisoners bound by Krull's iron rule. If nations do not love it there, why would they want to stay? Wouldn't they leave? Nothing prevents a nation from leaving a region. The only nations I know of that were ejected were those that advocated a hostile takeover of the region. Would you allow those advocating a coup in your region? Would you allow those who professed blatant lies in an attempt to defame your region? I wouldn't.

[RiderSyl]

<snip>

- Answering issues isn't all that non-WA players contribute to a region.
- When it comes to policies, and much more, a member of the NPO can fool actively involved supporting players. Ask Lazarenes.
- What I said was half refuted by a Senator in the NPO (not "by Pacific natives"), and half proven by the link he posted. You know nothing, Jon Snow.
- You're taking some things way too literally.
- Anyone in the Pacific can be ejected for "professing blatant lies", truth be damned.

[Malkorian Empire]

- Answering issues isn't all that non-WA players contribute to a region.
- When it comes to policies, and much more, a member of the NPO can fool actively involved supporting players. Ask Lazarenes.
- What I said was half refuted by a Senator in the NPO (not "by Pacific natives"), and half proven by the link he posted. You know nothing, Jon Snow.
- You're taking some things way too literally.
- Anyone in the Pacific can be ejected for "professing blatant lies", truth be damned.

Nations who are part of the WA either completely support Krull, the NPO and her policies, or they simply leave to join another region more to their liking. Non-WA players contribute much to the region as well, and support the NPO. Players that are aware of the policies of the NPO and dislike it leave, we don't keep anyone against their will. One's that only log on to do issues and such, do not care for gameplay politics ect. because if they did, they would belong in one of the above categories.

No one is fooling anyone in the Pacific. We all know the policies of the NPO and support them. We enjoy our stability, peace, and efficient government system.

As for the list, we enjoy doing up lists. Our forum is littered with lists of nations. We take active polls on who votes for what, as we like to discuss it and hear our comrades thoughts and opinions on the subject at hand. The list in question was done by someone who doesn't appear to be a native as the pacific as he refounded in Balder, moved to Morder, then moved to the Pacific, posted the list, then moved back to morder and finally rested in the West Pacific. We do not do regular witch hunts because someone doesn't vote the right way on WA proposal.

We eject people for "professing blatant lies" because our RMB constantly gets harassed by outsiders who spout lies about the Krull, the NPO and native Pacificans. If you look back at players ejected for this, you will find all were either outsiders who joined simply to say these things, or puppets.

[Arctriul]

Once the NPO is overthrown, the condemnation will still be there...

In the unlikely event that they are overthrown, this Condemnation can be repealed.

This gives food for thought... :|