[PASSED] Condemn The Pacific

[Excidium Planetis]

<snip>

- Answering issues isn't all that non-WA players contribute to a region.
- When it comes to policies, and much more, a member of the NPO can fool actively involved supporting players. Ask Lazarenes.
- What I said was half refuted by a Senator in the NPO (not "by Pacific natives"), and half proven by the link he posted. You know nothing, Jon Snow.
- You're taking some things way too literally.
- Anyone in the Pacific can be ejected for "professing blatant lies", truth be damned.

"Then are you accusing the natives of the region from being blind and deaf?

I'm saying most people just log on and do their issues, they aren't really aware of the larger elements of gameplay at work.

-Please try to keep up with the discussion. The players in question were specifically referred to as just logging on and doing issues.
-There is significant opposition within and outside of Lazarus to the current regime. They clearly aren't blind and deaf.
-California Prime isn't a Senator in the NPO. You know nothing, Jon Snow.
-You still have shown no evidence.
-Show me the Truth then. All I see is false claims.

[RiderSyl]

-Please try to keep up with the discussion. The players in question were specifically referred to as just logging on and doing issues.
-There is significant opposition within and outside of Lazarus to the current regime. They clearly aren't blind and deaf.
-California Prime isn't a Senator in the NPO. You know nothing, Jon Snow.
-You still have shown no evidence.
-Show me the Truth then. All I see is false claims.

- That was by Stalker, not by me.
- You missed the point.
- "California Prime" needs to change his signature then. (also, don't steal my lines!)
- Like I said before, "California Prime" posted some evidence for me, probably unintentionally. Please try to keep up with the discussion.
- Sorry, but I cannot literally go into your mind and change your flawed perception. Check back when I become a super-villain.

[Malkorian Empire]

- That was by Stalker, not by me.
- You missed the point.
- "California Prime" needs to change his signature then. (also, don't steal my lines!)
- Like I said before, "California Prime" posted some evidence for me, probably unintentionally. Please try to keep up with the discussion.
- Sorry, but I cannot literally go into your mind and change your flawed perception. Check back when I become a super-villain.

"California Prime" does not have a signature. You are most likely confusing him with Senator Aleisyr. As stated before, The list in question was done by someone who doesn't appear to be a native as the pacific as he refounded in Balder, moved to Morder, then moved to the Pacific, posted the list, then moved back to morder and finally rested in the West Pacific. We do not do regular witch hunts because someone doesn't vote the right way on WA proposal.

You are the one with the flawed perception. A lot of things being said about the Pacific and the NPO is either misinformation, or blatant lies.

[The Stalker]

Well the contexts of my original post was in regards to the two clause Excidium Planetis took issue with.

I still think the core of those clauses are valid, there is a rather strict endorsement cap, nations do get ejected for dissenting against NPO, power is in the hands of very few, it's not fair off from a police state. Though you make some fair points, perhaps they could have been worded better, but I believe it is a little dramatized to match the language of WA resolutions.

To me the focus of this resolution is the various coups and their treatment of fellow GCRs. If Pacificians don't like what is being said about their region, they should either try to reform or accept the position they've put themselves in.

[Normarsh]

Trash the Pacific. It's no use anyway.

[TAO the Wanderer]

Trash the Pacific. It's no use anyway.

And you base your GOD-knowledge on ... what? If you are dismissing the contributions of The Pacific for the past 12 years to the greater Game, you might as well eliminate ALL GCR's. Better yet, let's eliminate UCRs. And also require every nation in the Game to be a member of the WA.

I say all this to help you see that your frustration with The Pacific is an INDIVIDUAL response. Individuals are free to love or hate The Pacific and the NPO and your opinion does not change that fact. But your suggestion would involve punishing a group of players who do not conform to your way of thinking.

[Flanderlion]

Trash the Pacific. It's no use anyway.

Isn't that what you guys are doing?
You guys are dragging our name through the mud, and eventually some will stick.

[Funkadelia]

Trash the Pacific. It's no use anyway.

Isn't that what you guys are doing?
You guys are dragging our name through the mud, and eventually some will stick.

Feux, AMOM, and Milograd already did a good enough job of dragging your name through the mud.

[Excidium Planetis]

-Please try to keep up with the discussion. The players in question were specifically referred to as just logging on and doing issues.
-There is significant opposition within and outside of Lazarus to the current regime. They clearly aren't blind and deaf.
-California Prime isn't a Senator in the NPO. You know nothing, Jon Snow.
-You still have shown no evidence.
-Show me the Truth then. All I see is false claims.

- That was by Stalker, not by me.
- You missed the point.
- "California Prime" needs to change his signature then. (also, don't steal my lines!)
- Like I said before, "California Prime" posted some evidence for me, probably unintentionally. Please try to keep up with the discussion.
- Sorry, but I cannot literally go into your mind and change your flawed perception. Check back when I become a super-villain.

-Yes, and you responded my comments made specifically about what The Stalker said.
-My point is that involved players aren't blindly supporting the current Pacific regime.
-California Prime does not need to change his signature, because he is not a Senator in the Pacific. Aleisyr is the only Senator. Likewise, Malkorian Empire and Anozia are not a senators either, and they have contested your claims. There are at least 4 Pacific natives that contest your claims, and only one is a Senator.
-Aleisyr posted the link, not California Prime. And It isn't evidence for your arguments at all. Poor Codger isn't even in the Pacific anymore, so isn't a "native". Of his list, at least one I checked (of three) was still in The Pacific, not ejected.
-Say what you want, it doesn't make your claims true.

[Durkadurkiranistan II]

what does the delegate of the pacific have to say on the subject?

[Mousebumples]

We condemn the NPO's support of the Stujenske-led coup in Lazarus. Although the deposed government had itself previously ejected community members to consolidate its power, this latest coup takes disregard for the Lazarene community to a whole new level. We also condemn NPO's past support for the Milograd-led coup in TSP, and we are proud of the role we played in liberating our friends in TSP from that occupation.

We regret that the author chose to use this resolution to air ancient grievances against NPO, including matters relating solely to its internal affairs. These extraneous matters may imperil passage of this deserved condemnation; their inclusion certainly gave us pause. In the end, however, we decided that condemning NPO's repeated violations of the prerogatives of indigenous GCR communities was important enough to justify overlooking serious flaws in the resolution. Accordingly, Europeia casts its 301 votes in favor of the resolution.

-Mousebumples, WA Delegate for Europeia

[Silentvoice]

Those who did have most likely been gone for years. Krulltopia has ruled TP for 6 years, and the regime he leads has been in place longer than that. Krulltopia was put in power by the natives, and remains in power by the natives. Claiming that TP is a police state that oppresses its members is deceptive and ignores the fact that its natives don't feel oppressed, openly support Krull, and police themselves.

There are no elections in The Pacific and Krull is ruler by default. He was elevated to his position by his predecessor, and when he steps down (at a time of his choosing), he gets to pick his successor. All WA nations except Krull's closest confidants have to limit their endorsements to 15 -- a ridiculously low cap compared to the other feeders.

Sounds like a dictatorship to me.

[Malkorian Empire]

Actually, the cap is 10. This ensures our security, while also discouraging attacks upon us, which seems to be working quite well as the recent attempts to rally an invasion force have been laughed out RMB's all over.

As for a single ruler followed by a successor, its the same as some monarchy's.

I would also like to point out, if Pacificans wanted a change in our government, it would happen.

[The Bruce]

While I understand the sentiment against the NPO right now, I don't think that the Pacific should be condemned.

As this region is a game construct for spawning new nations in, it unfairly targets nations, who through no fault of their own, happened to spawn in the Pacific. Condemning the Pacific for the acts of the NPO is like condemning the car instead of the person driving it. The NPO just happens to the be the regional government that have held onto that particular feeder region. Had they founded and built up the Pacific from nothing, you would have a distinctive ownership of that community you could condemn, something that wouldn't include a bunch of randomly spawned nations and nations that continue to be randomly spawned there (most of whom have no idea who the NPO are or have any stake in the recent crisis).

[United Provinces of Low-Lying Nations]

Well seeing that all nations upon their birth are thrust into The Pacific regardless of anything it needs to be a safe learning environment where one may grow their economy and buy the planet

[The Bruce]

Well seeing that all nations upon their birth are thrust into The Pacific regardless of anything it needs to be a safe learning environment where one may grow their economy and buy the planet

Imagine if you had a feeder where there was no delegate and thus no opportunity to eject, suppress, or manipulate the nations in that feeder in any way. You'd have a link in their world fact book entry telling them that their forum was the NS Forum. Provided you made anti-recruiting spam rules for the region board that were enforced by the Mods, you could really have something special in this game.

[Jean Pierre Trudeau]

While I understand the sentiment against the NPO right now, I don't think that the Pacific should be condemned.

As this region is a game construct for spawning new nations in, it unfairly targets nations, who through no fault of their own, happened to spawn in the Pacific. Condemning the Pacific for the acts of the NPO is like condemning the car instead of the person driving it. The NPO just happens to the be the regional government that have held onto that particular feeder region. Had they founded and built up the Pacific from nothing, you would have a distinctive ownership of that community you could condemn, something that wouldn't include a bunch of randomly spawned nations and nations that continue to be randomly spawned there (most of whom have no idea who the NPO are or have any stake in the recent crisis).

Feeders are deigned to by dynamic, not stagnant with the same tyrant controlling them for years on end. Whilst we would have loved nothing more than to condemn the NPO, the game does not permit us to condemn a certain sect of a fictional organization. You can either condemn a nation or a region, and condemning six or seven nations would have gotten on everyone's nerves, so we chose to condemn the region as a whole.

We condemn the NPO's support of the Stujenske-led coup in Lazarus. Although the deposed government had itself previously ejected community members to consolidate its power, this latest coup takes disregard for the Lazarene community to a whole new level. We also condemn NPO's past support for the Milograd-led coup in TSP, and we are proud of the role we played in liberating our friends in TSP from that occupation.

We regret that the author chose to use this resolution to air ancient grievances against NPO, including matters relating solely to its internal affairs. These extraneous matters may imperil passage of this deserved condemnation; their inclusion certainly gave us pause. In the end, however, we decided that condemning NPO's repeated violations of the prerogatives of indigenous GCR communities was important enough to justify overlooking serious flaws in the resolution. Accordingly, Europeia casts its 301 votes in favor of the resolution.

-Mousebumples, WA Delegate for Europeia

Whilst I understand your position Madame Delegate, the Europian vote in favor has gone a long way to ensure the passage of this groundbreaking condemnation, and for that your community has my gratitude.

[Excidium Planetis]

Those who did have most likely been gone for years. Krulltopia has ruled TP for 6 years, and the regime he leads has been in place longer than that. Krulltopia was put in power by the natives, and remains in power by the natives. Claiming that TP is a police state that oppresses its members is deceptive and ignores the fact that its natives don't feel oppressed, openly support Krull, and police themselves.

There are no elections in The Pacific and Krull is ruler by default. He was elevated to his position by his predecessor, and when he steps down (at a time of his choosing), he gets to pick his successor. All WA nations except Krull's closest confidants have to limit their endorsements to 15 -- a ridiculously low cap compared to the other feeders.

Sounds like a dictatorship to me.

And your point is...?
I never said it wasn't a dictatorship.

[Ramaeus]

I never claimed the region was awesome. I only claimed its natives were not prisoners bound by Krull's iron rule. If nations do not love it there, why would they want to stay? Wouldn't they leave? Nothing prevents a nation from leaving a region.

Speaking as a Delegate of a Feeder, I can safely say that the vast bulk of nations within most every feeder simply desire to be left alone. Most of the nations from my endorsement campaigns were either founded within the region, or, in a few, more rare cases, have been there for quite some time.

Here are the statistics from my most recent mass-telegram campaign:
- 6,686 Delivered
- 1,528 Read (22.85%)

The replies I received were significantly less than the number of nations that read the telegram. My point is this: most nations within the feeders simply want to be left alone. They tend to not care about the regional government. However, they tend to care about or support the sitting Delegate. (If necessary, I can support this statement with statistics.)

[Anozia]

I had thrown the idea that the Security Council had been invaded/taken over by raiders, jokingly, but now, I've noticed this: [Draft] Commend The Black Riders
So I'm changing my mind, and end up following Krulltopia lead, though we may have a different reason for it, and voting FOR the condemnation.

Now if the aforementioned draft is put to vote, I will vote FOR it, and with that, people looking at the actions of the regions wearing opposite badges, will be able to tell which badge show who's on the right side, and who's on the wrong, regardless of their design or whatever is written on them.

edit: err, the first phrase missed words completely necessary to the understanding, how could I miss that

[RiderSyl]

I had thrown the idea that the Security Council, but now, I've noticed this: [Draft] Commend The Black Riders
So I'm changing my mind, and end up following Krulltopia lead, though we may have a different reason for it, and voting FOR the condemnation.

Now if the aforementioned draft is put to vote, I will vote FOR it, and with that, people looking at the actions of the regions wearing opposite badges, will be able to tell which badge show who's on the right side, and who's on the wrong, regardless of their design or whatever is written on them.

That's really dumb.

[Malkorian Empire]

That's really dumb.

You're just mad you didn't think of it first before having the Commendation drafted

[TAO the Wanderer]

Feeders are deigned to by dynamic, not stagnant with the same tyrant controlling them for years on end. Whilst we would have loved nothing more than to condemn the NPO, the game does not permit us to condemn a certain sect of a fictional organization. You can either condemn a nation or a region, and condemning six or seven nations would have gotten on everyone's nerves, so we chose to condemn the region as a whole.

That may have been the way the Feeders ~were~ designed to be ... but the decade plus of innovative morphing of the Game would suggest that how things were designed is not the way the have to be today. The original design didn't include Influence yet we all are stuck with that addition and are still innovating new ways to use that Game aspect. The Game was designed for US to come up with new ways to reshape the Game within the construct provided. If the innovation in The Pacific is ONE delegate every 6-10 years, who has the right to say that is "wrong". If you are dissatisfied with how The Pacific utilizes the Game's Rules for its own designs, take the region from them and return the place to its pristine, Max-made perfection. And if you can eliminate Influence in The Pacific in the process of your regional reset, we will all be grateful.

[Wheeling Park]

I for one support this. Sic Semper Tyrannis!

[Excidium Planetis]

I for one support this. Sic Semper Tyrannis!

I am appalled at your contradictions. You appear to hate tyrants but your sig says freedom is irreverent.