[Abandoned] Repeal "Commend Westwind"

[KaelThas Quilor]

I'm pretty sure you said much the same thing the first time you went defender...before becoming independent again.

Well, it's a good thing I'm not being commended. My ideological background has nothing to do either with Westwind's commendation or its repeal.

It has to do with the kind of rhetoric you use.

Forgive me, but it is hard to take absolute statements seriously from you, given your history of changing your side and your opinions with such frequency. It has little to do with the idea of repealing commend Westwind, but it has everything to do with this repeal because you wrote it.

On a personal level, I don't care about your back and forth history. We aren't friends, we aren't even acquatiances. But on a professional and debate/discussion level, it means that you lack the moral credibility to speak in such absolute tones, at least for my money (and I suspect other people's money, though I can hardly know for sure).

[Cormac Stark]

Well, that's obnoxious. How is one supposed to refer to those regions?

A workaround is contained here.

Thanks Ramaeus. I just went with "other prominent regions" as that was sufficient for this draft, but that's helpful for future reference.

<snip>

My ideological background, again, isn't relevant either to Westwind's commendation or repeal of it. The commendation and proposed repeal can and should be debated on their merits, no matter how much your imperialist cabal has enjoyed bringing up irrelevant, personal jabs at me across multiple threads for days now. I'm not going to engage with it anymore. You can debate with me on the merits or you can be ignored for being as irrelevant as the personal jabs you're employing to discredit me.

[Crazy girl]

If you guys wish to continue the discussion on feeders/sinkers terms, feel free to bump this up: viewtopic.php?p=21345446#p21345446

Just to keep things organised here. Thank you

[RiderSyl]

This reads more like a Condemnation of what Westwind has done more recently, than a Repeal focused on proving that what was included in the Commend proposal was not Commendable.

If this fails to pass, I'd suggest redrafting it as a Condemnation.

[KaelThas Quilor]

This reads more like a Condemnation of what Westwind has done more recently, than a Repeal focused on proving that what was included in the Commend proposal was not Commendable.

If this fails to pass, I'd suggest redrafting it as a Condemnation.

While I wouldn't vote for it as a condemnation, I actually have to agree it somewhat reads better as a condemnation than as it currently stands.

[Cormac Stark]

This reads more like a Condemnation of what Westwind has done more recently, than a Repeal focused on proving that what was included in the Commend proposal was not Commendable.

If this fails to pass, I'd suggest redrafting it as a Condemnation.

I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not terribly interested in being the person who helps Westwind become the first player to achieve both badges simultaneously either.

[Evil Wolf]

but I'm not terribly interested in being the person who helps Westwind become the first player to achieve both badges simultaneously either.

I thought Sedgistan already held that honor. Before the repeals, of course.

[Cormac Stark]

but I'm not terribly interested in being the person who helps Westwind become the first player to achieve both badges simultaneously either.

I thought Sedgistan already held that honor. Before the repeals, of course.

I should have worded that better. I meant the first player to actually keep both badges.

Anyway, this has been submitted.

[KaelThas Quilor]

This reads more like a Condemnation of what Westwind has done more recently, than a Repeal focused on proving that what was included in the Commend proposal was not Commendable.

If this fails to pass, I'd suggest redrafting it as a Condemnation.

I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not terribly interested in being the person who helps Westwind become the first player to achieve both badges simultaneously either.

Because that really matters?

[Evil Wolf]

I should have worded that better. I meant the first player to actually keep both badges.

Wait...what?

You mean the first player to have a Condemn and a Commend and never ever have either of those repealed? Are you using your magic eyes to pierce through the veil of time and into the future again, Cormac?

[Cormac Stark]

Wait...what?

You mean the first player to have a Condemn and a Commend and never ever have either of those repealed? Are you using your magic eyes to pierce through the veil of time and into the future again, Cormac?

It stands to reason that if I am unable to repeal the commendation now, barring some unforeseen future event that angers much of the world, Westwind will keep the commendation. So I don't want to add a condemnation and have him retain both badges; the goal here is not more recognition and attention.

Anyway, I'm focused on repeal at the moment.

[Cormac Stark]

This appears to have been hit with a counter-campaign and is unlikely to make quorum.

I will re-submit it in the future, but not the near future as I'm not going to ask Delegates to repeatedly approve this proposal -- they'll become less likely to each time it's submitted.

Edit: Repeal removed at my request.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

Good to see the politics of envy failing.

[Cormac Stark]

Good to see the politics of envy failing.

Postponed until Cassius isn't paying attention and running a counter-campaign. I definitely will re-submit this eventually.

[KaelThas Quilor]

Cassius isn't the only person who would run a counter-campaign, though.

[Consular]

You don't think that says something about the 'merits' of your draft - the fact that it can't even achieve quorum unless nobody is paying attention?

[Ananke II]

I like Westwind and voted for his commendation. To be fair though, it's not like the repeal proposal has no basis in fact. He's done enough stuff in NS that you can write both commendations, condemnations and repeals without embellishing, and not agreeing with a commendation of him is fair enough imo.

[Cormac Stark]

You don't think that says something about the 'merits' of your draft - the fact that it can't even achieve quorum unless nobody is paying attention?

Most drafts get pushed out of queue if a counter-campaign is persistently run against them. So no, I don't think it says anything about the merits of the draft because I know how Security Council approval and voting works.

[Consular]

Your proposal was failing just fine by itself really, I just helped it along a bit. - It was gaining approvals incredibly slowly and struggling to reach quorum even before I did anything.

[Cormac Stark]

Your proposal was failing just fine by itself really, I just helped it along a bit. - It was gaining approvals incredibly slowly and struggling to reach quorum even before I did anything.

Well, I expected this to be an uphill battle. It's not that Westwind hasn't done commendable things, it's, as Ananke notes, that there's a much broader picture. I want to give SC voters an opportunity to re-evaluate the commendation with more information, but I acknowledge there's every possibility a repeal won't pass. That it had difficulty getting to quorum as well isn't a surprise to me.

That said, it's not as if every region thought the commendation was warranted. The North Pacific, a region Westwind perpetrated a coup against, did vote against it. So I think your confidence is a bit overstated; Westwind's legacy is quite gray, not the black and white your commendation portrays.

I will be re-working the draft shortly for eventual re-submission.

[KaelThas Quilor]

A grey legacy warrants both 'badges', not neither badge. A player like Westwind has a legacy, and should have commends and condemns to show it, if he deserves both. Having both at once isn't some grand achievement, (not really) and if we accepted gray legacies more, then more people would have both and we could start having meaningful discussions again, when it comes to commends and condemns.

[Consular]

I suppose it's a matter of perception Cormac. Or perhaps I just know the player in question a bit better. Where you see good and bad acts as separate, creating some kind of grey hue, I see the acts you might regard as bad as done for a fundamentally good cause - or if not good per se then at least for the good of some bigger picture, rather than some personal desire for power. This is something I tried to capture in his commendation draft, it is unfortunate that the subtle nuances of it were apparently lost on you - or perhaps you just didn't care for them. No matter. He does deserve the commendation, and I'll continue to try and keep it standing.

Edit: I would add that I don't think anyone is truly entirely good. Greyness is an evitability, as soon as one realises that the world is not as simple as good and evil - one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

[Cormac Stark]

The draft has been significantly revised for eventual re-submission, fleshing out and focusing on Westwind's concrete actions -- particularly against three GCRs -- while eliminating much of the ideological argumentation of the first draft, which failed to achieve quorum. Let it never be said that I don't respond to the input of the interregional community.

I'm also pleased to have added Zemnaya Svoboda, AKA Eluvatar, as a co-author of this draft and I greatly appreciate his contributions to improving it. I believe he'll have more to say regarding the proposal shortly.

[The Lamdda Resistance]

Nice draft. I would approve this. Mostly because my main nation is in the TNP

[Cormac Stark]

Citations have been added to the OP.