[Submitted] Liberate Haven

[Arthurista]

“No the justification is that the raiders can do more with the region. I say as much in the proposal.”

Mall, as I said before, whatever your opinion of the RPing community (we certainly have pretty strong views about the R/D people as well), it scarcely justifies unilaterally imposing your way of participating in NS on people who have no interest in it. As an RPer, I don’t care whatsoever what raiders do with regions. We have zero intention of participating in your antics.

As Katalonua said above, this attempt to use the liberation mechanism in a way it’s not intended to be used is a travesty, an blatant abuse of process in an attempt to expose RPing regions to your gameplaying and the associated crap. We don’t want it. Leave us alone.

[Mallorea and Riva]

“No the justification is that the raiders can do more with the region. I say as much in the proposal.”

Mall, as I said before, whatever your opinion of the RPing community (we certainly have pretty strong views about the R/D people as well), it scarcely justifies unilaterally imposing your way of participating in NS on people who have no interest in it. As an RPer, I don’t care whatsoever what raiders do with regions. We have zero intention of participating in your antics.

As Katalonua said above, this attempt to use the liberation mechanism in a way it’s not intended to be used is a travesty, an blatant abuse of process in an attempt to expose RPing regions to your gameplaying and the associated crap. We don’t want it. Leave us alone.

Obviously Haven doesn't want this... When I'm raiding a region and the SC passes a lib against me I certainly don't want it either. The SC strips autonomy via libs, that is the point.

[The Batorys]

“No the justification is that the raiders can do more with the region. I say as much in the proposal.”

Mall, as I said before, whatever your opinion of the RPing community (we certainly have pretty strong views about the R/D people as well), it scarcely justifies unilaterally imposing your way of participating in NS on people who have no interest in it. As an RPer, I don’t care whatsoever what raiders do with regions. We have zero intention of participating in your antics.

As Katalonua said above, this attempt to use the liberation mechanism in a way it’s not intended to be used is a travesty, an blatant abuse of process in an attempt to expose RPing regions to your gameplaying and the associated crap. We don’t want it. Leave us alone.

I think I can do more with Mall's nation than he can.

His password should be given to me so that I can use his nation. Because that would be more interesting and fun for me.

[Kubrastahni]

Using a puppet because two of my home regions still have raider sleeper agents in them after we booted the raiders themselves out.

As one of those RPers who joined to overthrow Milograd (to seek help from defenders for the issue stated in the earlier sentence), I find it ironic and yet most unfunny that raiders who were responsible for him taking over that region in the first place are shifting blame at other people because they have run out of targets.

I didn't care about the Milo thing, I will continue to not care about it. I only got involved in the first place to oust Milograd because the quicker he was ousted, the quicker the defenders would have gotten back to helping me retake my RP region.

As someone with a WA puppet, and on a more objective note, I will oppose this draft because it isn't well written, the arguments are lacking, and the only reason it hasn't been laughed right off of the forums and told to be revised at least six times is because the one who posted it has a red name.

A security council draft should be well written, concise, but not short to the point of uselessness. This is the kind of effort someone who has been around as long as this puppet has been would put into a draft, please try again, and next time, don't insult our intelligence by trying to pass this off as legitimate. Proper bureaucracy dictates that you should have at least used a paragraph for each point

If we're going to try and play this off as politics, then at least put forth the effort required of a pretend-politician, instead of just writing a few sentences and leaving it at that. Far better proposals have been shot down for less.

Furthermore, the stated reasons throughout the thread are 'out of character', the poster of the draft has clearly shown that this proposal has not been written with the intent of what the draft puts forth, but merely because the one behind the proposal wants to open up the target region to raiding. Given his 'arguments' and this draft's wording, I believe it is good cause to state that it should be struck down for a Rule 4 violation of draft proposals. Indeed the entire purpose of this proposal seems to be to drum up OOC responses, as most of those who would be affected by the ruling do not, and in some cases, refuse to participate in the WA and the SC as a whole. While it may not violate the letter of Rule 4, it most certainly violates the spirit of it.

[Anemos Major]

Really, I'm not quite sure why we're endeavouring to do this again - at the end of last year, a similar dispute along these lines lead to a fairly heated debate of some sixty pages, and there was really very little to show for it. We now find ourselves in a rather similar situation, where the roleplaying community find that their ability to play 'politics' as they've chosen to interpret it on this site is being violated by another's ability to impose their own brand of the game on unwilling participants, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if the conclusion we come to is much the same as that reached at the end of those sixty pages last year - there is no problem, thread locked.

This argument has been done, and done, and done again, really. We're now back here six months later, complaining about broadly similar things - this argument has been done to death, with no satisfactory solutions or resolutions to show for it.

I remember writing this up some time ago - I don't have the passion to pen anything quite like this again, but it seems as though the crux of the argument here is as valid as it was then. I suppose the issue isn't quite the same, but it inevitably boils down to the same thing. As always.

The input from the raider side seems to be focusing almost exclusively on the realm of how R/D is effectively an integral 'part of the game'. It's been abundantly proven already that it isn't (R/D is a player-created construction making use of the WA and regions in an unintended fashion, changes were made to the game to accommodate that form of gameplay over time but by the time these developments occurred, there were people RPing, people who played NS for the WA side of things and so on and so forth) -

It makes about as much sense as playing chess and asking to be safeguarded against the queen. It's part of the game.

- which means that it's less this, and more asking to be safeguarded against the queen from the chess table across the room when you're trying to play bridge, whereas the way things are mean that the queen is allowed to trash our game of bridge unless we follow a particular set of rules. And all this in a room where, in theory, people are allowed to play chess, or bridge, or whatever strikes their fancy. There've been a number of slight variations along this theme that're equally questionable - there're those, for example, who seem to believe that raiding's inherent superiority derives from the fact that this site describes itself as a political simulation (somewhat satirically, may I add) and R/D is the most authentic form of simulation on this site. Which is equally questionable; if you think that the vandalising of geopolitical regions whose security and stability rests on the shoulders of a single UN delegate is a genuine reflection of international politics, so be it, but RPers have their own brand of politcking and geopolitical interaction that's flourishing on the forums. Even disregarding the fact that this site shouldn't be treated with such a closed mind, there should be no reason why one brand of 'politics' should be hoisted over another.

[Zepplin Manufacturers]

Hi. Haven region delegate here again, doer of linearts, the infamous khan missile and various other roleplay things over the years.

Are you an antique WA delegate for a RP region dragged into the light of day by a scary game mechanic you ill understand, disprove of
and do not wish to have forced upon you? Be me today. Enjoy a wide range of benefits, responsibilities and of course happy happy food products. Remember its not food if its not happy.

Please if you are supportive of Havens position in this simply give nay, no or negative to this, if you must again give a CALM and COGENT rebuttal with as little emotional content as possible. I would appreciate if you however did not as this is not helping nor apparently can it.

Thank you for your support even if given in self interest and do not feed the trolls for they live for our communal ire.

[No endorse]

Mallorea, clearly the message isn't getting to you. We're not interested in your games. We're not interested in Raiders, and never have been.

Go play with people that want to play with you, there are presumably a number of them.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Please if you are supportive of Havens position in this simply give nay, no or negative to this, if you must again give a CALM and COGENT rebuttal with as little emotional content as possible.

I actually appreciate that.

Anemos what happened six months ago that you are referring to?

Mallorea, clearly the message isn't getting to you. We're not interested in your games. We're not interested in Raiders, and never have been.

Go play with people that want to play with you, there are presumably a number of them.

I'm fully aware that Haven does not want to be raided.

[Prekonate]

No one who participated in the 2013 "coup" from Haven is active anymore, so that argument for a revenge raid is pretty weak. The other points are just lol - the op should give me his pw, I think I'm a better writer than him and could do more with his account than he could.

If you really wanted to be vindictive for the south pacific thing, raid Maredoratica, which gave even more support than Haven.

[Oseato]

I've given some. The embassy which demonstrates the compliance of both Milograd and the government of Haven, linking Cavan to the coup to prove that there was a material Havenite presence... Everyone knows Haven was involved. I don't get why focusing in has happened on this aspect of the proposal.

You said you have evidence of Haven's explicit and express support for the coup, yet you haven't posted anything to support this. You've pointed out that Crave expressly supported the coup but nothing more. Its a big deal because generally lying about a justification is frowned upon by most people.

[The Batorys]

Mallorea, clearly the message isn't getting to you. We're not interested in your games. We're not interested in Raiders, and never have been.

Go play with people that want to play with you, there are presumably a number of them.

Yep, this.

None of us RPers would care about raiders or harbor the anti-raider, and even anti-gameplay sentiments we do, if not for the repeated attempts to make it so that we can't opt-out of that whole thing.

We want to be left alone so that we can spend our time doing what we like, RPing.

That is all we want.

That is all we have ever wanted.

[The Kievan People]

On behalf of the true owners of Europe, I'd like to say this is bull-poop. As an RP region we have no interest in the raiding "game", and the idea that an RP region might be forced to participate in that silliness is extremely concerning to me. I am not a Havenite, but if it can happen to them, it can happen to us.

Raiders should just play with themselves and leave us alone.

[Mallorea and Riva]

No one who participated in the 2013 "coup" from Haven is active anymore, so that argument for a revenge raid is pretty weak. The other points are just lol - the op should give me his pw, I think I'm a better writer than him and could do more with his account than he could.

If you really wanted to be vindictive for the south pacific thing, raid Maredoratica, which gave even more support than Haven.

How do you know about the Havenites involved in the raid?

[Anemos Major]

Anemos what happened six months ago that you are referring to?

The same, bitter, acrimonious debate.

Disappointed that many regions have taken to cowering behind passwords for protection for long durations rather than acting to strengthen themselves,

Confident that a number of raiding organizations could utilize the region for far more interesting things than the current residents are choosing to,

Over comments and actions much like these, in fact.

[The Batorys]

Please if you are supportive of Havens position in this simply give nay, no or negative to this, if you must again give a CALM and COGENT rebuttal with as little emotional content as possible.

I actually appreciate that.

Anemos what happened six months ago that you are referring to?

Mallorea, clearly the message isn't getting to you. We're not interested in your games. We're not interested in Raiders, and never have been.

Go play with people that want to play with you, there are presumably a number of them.

I'm fully aware that Haven does not want to be raided.

Why are you trying to force people into things they don't want to do?

[Mallorea and Riva]

Anemos what happened six months ago that you are referring to?

The same, bitter, acrimonious debate.

Disappointed that many regions have taken to cowering behind passwords for protection for long durations rather than acting to strengthen themselves,

Confident that a number of raiding organizations could utilize the region for far more interesting things than the current residents are choosing to,

Over comments and actions much like these, in fact.

That is a tech forum debate, I thought you were referring to another SC resolution.

[The Republic of Lanos]

You got evidence to show us or are you hiding it from us and only showing it to your raider friends so you guys can secure this liberation and violate yet another RP region?

[Prekonate]

No one who participated in the 2013 "coup" from Haven is active anymore, so that argument for a revenge raid is pretty weak. The other points are just lol - the op should give me his pw, I think I'm a better writer than him and could do more with his account than he could.

If you really wanted to be vindictive for the south pacific thing, raid Maredoratica, which gave even more support than Haven.

How do you know about the Havenites involved in the raid?

I am one of them. Just get over it, raiding a bunch of uninvolved ppl who think of haven as an object of nostalgia is vindictive and douchy.

I know mods love that kind of thing but really, be a bigger person.

[Northrop-Grumman]

You got evidence to show us or are you hiding it from us and only showing it to your raider friends so you guys can secure this liberation and violate yet another RP region?

19 pages in, 19 pages of constant asking. He still hasn't provided it, so it doesn't exist.

[Tiami]

You got evidence to show us or are you hiding it from us and only showing it to your raider friends so you guys can secure this liberation and violate yet another RP region?

19 pages in, 19 pages of constant asking. He still hasn't provided it, so it doesn't exist.

Sadly, you probably speak the truth. Unless suitable evidence can be procured, then I see no reason why this proposal should continue on.

[Mallorea and Riva]

How do you know about the Havenites involved in the raid?

I am one of them

This is incredibly awkward for all of the posters above and below you who are trying to say that Haven was entirely uninvolved. Would you like to explain to the best of your recollection what happened in April of 2013 regarding the coup?

[Voltrovia]

Really, I'm not quite sure why we're endeavouring to do this again - at the end of last year, a similar dispute along these lines lead to a fairly heated debate of some sixty pages, and there was really very little to show for it. We now find ourselves in a rather similar situation, where the roleplaying community find that their ability to play 'politics' as they've chosen to interpret it on this site is being violated by another's ability to impose their own brand of the game on unwilling participants, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if the conclusion we come to is much the same as that reached at the end of those sixty pages last year - there is no problem, thread locked.

This argument has been done, and done, and done again, really. We're now back here six months later, complaining about broadly similar things - this argument has been done to death, with no satisfactory solutions or resolutions to show for it.

I remember writing this up some time ago - I don't have the passion to pen anything quite like this again, but it seems as though the crux of the argument here is as valid as it was then. I suppose the issue isn't quite the same, but it inevitably boils down to the same thing. As always.

The input from the raider side seems to be focusing almost exclusively on the realm of how R/D is effectively an integral 'part of the game'. It's been abundantly proven already that it isn't (R/D is a player-created construction making use of the WA and regions in an unintended fashion, changes were made to the game to accommodate that form of gameplay over time but by the time these developments occurred, there were people RPing, people who played NS for the WA side of things and so on and so forth) -



- which means that it's less this, and more asking to be safeguarded against the queen from the chess table across the room when you're trying to play bridge, whereas the way things are mean that the queen is allowed to trash our game of bridge unless we follow a particular set of rules. And all this in a room where, in theory, people are allowed to play chess, or bridge, or whatever strikes their fancy. There've been a number of slight variations along this theme that're equally questionable - there're those, for example, who seem to believe that raiding's inherent superiority derives from the fact that this site describes itself as a political simulation (somewhat satirically, may I add) and R/D is the most authentic form of simulation on this site. Which is equally questionable; if you think that the vandalising of geopolitical regions whose security and stability rests on the shoulders of a single UN delegate is a genuine reflection of international politics, so be it, but RPers have their own brand of politcking and geopolitical interaction that's flourishing on the forums. Even disregarding the fact that this site shouldn't be treated with such a closed mind, there should be no reason why one brand of 'politics' should be hoisted over another.

The simple fact of the matter, as myself and others have noted a number of times over the course of this thread, is that a great many RPers simply wish to be left alone to engage in their side of NS, and while many members of the Gameplay community seem to want to force them into their element of the game, no cohesive argument exists as to why the RPers should not simply have some mechanism (passwording being the mechanism at present) by which they can be left to their own devices separate from R/D. If a salient argument establishing that R/D is something which the RPing nations must engage in regardless of their preference (and which excludes the opposite from legitimacy) is presented I will not be at odds with such proposals. Until that argument is formulated, I will object to these kinds of ideas.

[Minnysota]

Does this surprise anyone? The one who presented the argument still can't support his argument. Mall, pls lrn2debate. Don't let someone else do it for you.

[Vetok]

No one who participated in the 2013 "coup" from Haven is active anymore, so that argument for a revenge raid is pretty weak. The other points are just lol - the op should give me his pw, I think I'm a better writer than him and could do more with his account than he could.

If you really wanted to be vindictive for the south pacific thing, raid Maredoratica, which gave even more support than Haven.

How do you know about the Havenites involved in the raid?

He's posted no evidence, you've posted no evidence. According to the words of Nervun, neither of you are at fault for doing so. You can avoid presenting 'evidence', we can avoid presenting evidence. Done and done.

[No endorse]

Mallorea, clearly the message isn't getting to you. We're not interested in your games. We're not interested in Raiders, and never have been.

Go play with people that want to play with you, there are presumably a number of them.

I'm fully aware that Haven does not want to be raided.

Haven does not wish to participate whatsoever in the raider or defender game. Go play with people that want to play with you. This is a simple message that has been repeated time and again across the RP community, starting even before the proliferation of Reploid Production's I.G.N.O.R.E. weapons of increasingly comical phallacy. It is high time that this message is spread to Gameplay as well.

Go play with people who want to play with you.