[Submitted] Liberate Haven

[Mini Miehm]

Yeah, but he's a Moderator posting something to be intentionally inflammatory. When I asked if I could post a call to arms in II to get the attention of RPers for gameplay I was told explicitly that I couldn't because it would be inflammatory (as there was already a precedent for posting non-RP related things in II). Well, that's what this is. I'd love to see that reasoning enforced here, but it won't be. Also I think the person who told me that was kind of just being a jerk. But whatever.

I believe he's trying to use the liberation proposal exactly as it was meant to be used. To peel back the password of an unattainable region. Don't see anything inflammatory there. But if you do, I'd suggest taking it to the moderation thread here.

Very well. Let's try an experiment. I'm going to start a thread in moderation expressing my concern that this proposal was made with the sole intent of trolling the roleplay users. Let's see what happens. I'll even link it back here when I've done it.

Edit: Someone beat me to it. Glorious mod solidarity at work. Because of course it is.

[Nierr]

If raiders weren't constantly trying to kick over RPers' sandcastles.

The Black Riders, the most active raider group in existence at the moment raids about 1000 to 1200 regions a year.

How many of those are rp regions?

Yes, Haven is being targeted here. No, absolutely not is it part of any kind of larger scale raider targeting of RPers.

[Lexicor]

Everyone on this thread is encouraged to take a chill pill, take a deep breath and to try and calm down. Its all getting to be a little much.

[The Batorys]

Weren't you saying that RPers and Raiders should connect and work together or something only months ago?

I believe I said Gameplayers but yes. We definitely should connect more and bridge the gap between our communities. Doesn't mean I don't support raiding the crap out of regions without a founder.

The possibility of the second sentence ever becoming a reality is cancelled out by the attitude evidenced in the sentence immediately following.

People won't stop being angry at you for shitting on their work until you stop doing it.

[Northrop-Grumman]

Everyone on this thread is encouraged to take a chill pill, take a deep breath and to try and calm down. Its all getting to be a little much.

Every single time the RPing community is poked like this, chaos happens.

[Katalonua]

True. However, is it inaccurate to say we're not participating in R/N/D?

Nah, I suppose you'd be the N. A usually well-protected N, but an N nonetheless

Fair enough, I suppose. I'd like to continue this conversation, but this isn't really the place.

[The Batorys]

If you have specific concerns or suggestions regarding Liberation proposals, changes to gameplay, and so on, take it to Technical.

The problem with this is that the admin and mod teams do not listen to the concerns of RPers when they raise them. And in the unlikely event they do, the reply is invariably 'sorry, can't do nothing about that'.

You guys can switch up the update schedule, make huge sweeping changes to influence and be instituting or planning to institute a really quite impressive list of changes to R/D but when it comes time to protect those communities who are the forgotten victims of raiding, RPer and non-RPer communities both, nothing changes.

I've given up trying to change the system, because it never will change. My only goal now is to stop things like this. And that means me using contacts in gameplay to attempt to influence the votes of the GCRs, and numerous contacts in roleplay to get the more... explicit members of the community to step back to let cooler heads argue the points. And it isn't working.

And this entire thing, this entire damn thing, just repeats itself. It is a never ending cycle of shit that gets forced down the throats of NSers. And you have abdicated responsibility for that. God - or whatever deity - only knows how disenchanted you guys must be with the whole thing that you've done that, but I know I'm one of the very few gameplaying RPers left who hasn't completely given up on this whole damn shitheap.

And as long as that keeps happening, anger and resentment will only continue to grow.

[Hobbiest Republic]

My favorite part of this thread are all the people who deployed WA's to the TSP Coup claiming their innocence. This isn't an RP where you can just edit out your post and it never happened, kiddos. Gameplay has history records

"All the people"?

Name them.

Fucking. Name. Them.

You can't, can you?

I'm not denying anything, my history is there for all to see. Still, singling out regions for participants from the south pacific incident reeks of the kind of 'punishment' meted out to innocent and guilty alike by the education institution. It should be needless to say that I disapprove of that particular method of discipline.

[Lexicor]

Everyone on this thread is encouraged to take a chill pill, take a deep breath and to try and calm down. Its all getting to be a little much.

Every single time the RPing community is poked like this, chaos happens.

Well clearly the solution lies in not poking the RPing community.

[The Batorys]

Exactly.

That was the point of that.

Nobody likes getting their shit destroyed. Not even raiders.

Which is why you don't see us sitting in founderless regions.

Oh, sorry, I'll do that now. I played no role in the TSP coup. Happy?

I'm not trying to Liberate your region.

So you sit safe and sound, while fucking up other people's shit just because you can?

Seems a wee bit hypocritical.

What are people supposed to do in an old region if the founder CTEs? We've been told in the past "oh, just password it." People have done so, feeling it was the responsible thing to do, in order to opt-out of R/D. Now you're trying to dismiss that and render them helpless. That is fucked up.

People have proposed transferable foundership in the past, but that idea has been rejected time and again.

[Mini Miehm]

Every single time the RPing community is poked like this, chaos happens.

Well clearly the solution lies in not poking the RPing community.

Crazy idea right? And yet here we are.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Every single time the RPing community is poked like this, chaos happens.

Well clearly the solution lies in not poking the RPing community.

And yet this is what's happening over, over, over, over and over again ever since the first year of NS.

[Minnysota]

Seems a wee bit hypocritical.

It's entirely hypocritical. But Mall hasn't been able to formulate a suitable argument to this point, so he's just going to use fallacies to get him out of this too.

[PrussianEmpire]

Roleplayers viciously assaulted the peaceful region known as The South Pacific, which devastated the Gameplay community. Such events are intolerable and thus we demand retribution. Therefore, I SUPPORT burning the entire RP world to the ground, starting here in Haven. May the RPers pay in blood for their crimes.

[Ambroscus Koth]

So you sit safe and sound, while fucking up other people's shit just because you can?

Seems a wee bit hypocritical.

What are people supposed to do in an old region if the founder CTEs? We've been told in the past "oh, just password it." People have done so, feeling it was the responsible thing to do, in order to opt-out of R/D. Now you're trying to dismiss that and render them helpless. That is fucked up.

People have proposed transferable foundership in the past, but that idea has been rejected time and again.

We're safe because we took the steps to ensure our (always temporary, btw) safety. Nothing hypocritical there.

You could always, like, make a new region. Take screenshots of your old RMB and move forward. This, however, has nothing to do with liberating Haven.

[Northrop-Grumman]

The problem with this is that the admin and mod teams do not listen to the concerns of RPers when they raise them. And in the unlikely event they do, the reply is invariably 'sorry, can't do nothing about that'.

You guys can switch up the update schedule, make huge sweeping changes to influence and be instituting or planning to institute a really quite impressive list of changes to R/D but when it comes time to protect those communities who are the forgotten victims of raiding, RPer and non-RPer communities both, nothing changes.

I've given up trying to change the system, because it never will change. My only goal now is to stop things like this. And that means me using contacts in gameplay to attempt to influence the votes of the GCRs, and numerous contacts in roleplay to get the more... explicit members of the community to step back to let cooler heads argue the points. And it isn't working.

And this entire thing, this entire damn thing, just repeats itself. It is a never ending cycle of shit that gets forced down the throats of NSers. And you have abdicated responsibility for that. God - or whatever deity - only knows how disenchanted you guys must be with the whole thing that you've done that, but I know I'm one of the very few gameplaying RPers left who hasn't completely given up on this whole damn shitheap.

And as long as that keeps happening, anger and resentment will only continue to grow.

Pretty much spot on. I've tried in the past to give the whole thing a shot (hell, I even tried R/D for a bit) and see if there's a way to make everything work. Hell, even a gentleman's agreement to not mess with RP regions would be better than this constant aggression and the "suck it up" attitude. But I've personally given up on it. There's no point. If we can't at least have an equal footing in the discussion and get some measure of respect, then why bother? I can understand the idea about steamrolling the entire R/D game and being done with it and I've expressed such views myself. I know there are good people in the R/D community who don't want this sort of crapfest, but what can be done?

[New Azura]

Roleplayers viciously assaulted the peaceful region known as The South Pacific, which devastated the Gameplay community. Such events are intolerable and thus we demand retribution. Therefore, I SUPPORT burning the entire RP world to the ground, starting here in Haven. May the RPers pay in blood for their crimes.

Care for a cookie?

[Minnysota]

I hate to generalize you all, but it really seems like Gameplayers can't formulate proper arguments. When you can come back with substantial proof stating that Haven - as a region - dedicated itself to the coup in TSP, you can try to advance this motion. Until then, this is just another bad argument brought forward.

[Voltrovia]

While I am an RPer I have one or two things to say:

Most RPers don't hate Gameplay. Most RPers aren't involved in Gameplay. Most RPers don't really care that much at all about Gameplay (much as most Gameplayers don't care about RP). And that's perfectly fine.

But if you try to force them to get involved in Gameplay by liberating and raiding an RP region (on what still seems like an incoherent basis) they will respond extremely negatively and with genuine anger and outrage. Ergo - the responses in this thread.

It isn't that the RP community (of Haven in particular) are working against raiders (or defenders for that matter), it's more that the vast majority simply wish to be left alone, regardless of the justifications for or arguments against this liberation proposal.

Thank you sir. Much more coolly phrased than I could have done.

Thank you. A lot of the posts of this thread have been a little confrontational, to say the least. This is simply because the RPers here are very annoyed, outraged even, over the prospect of a RPing region being raided without any possibility of redress. Essentially, the idea that RP is separate from Gameplay is cast away because the only way for RPing regions to stay in existence is to actually play a part of the game they have nothing to do with. Unsurprisingly the response has been overwhelmingly negative.

The RP community is not simply one vast hivemind dedicated to working against R/D. I think I'm right in saying that most RPers don't care greatly about Gameplay and are inexperienced in it, and vice-versa. Therefore, to say that all RPers have actively moved against the raiders is likely to cause tension, as many of us can count the times that we've moved region on a single hand.

This does lead on to the question of whether the liberation itself is justified. The rationale that a number of old Haven players were involved in Milograd's coup is debatable in it's legitimacy but that isn't the problem at the moment. Mall, quite a lot of people have gotten angry about a lack of conclusive evidence. I am posting in perfectly good faith when I say that access to some log files or history records would be useful for convincing more than a few people (including myself) of the true basis of your proposal. I don't know how to access those files or to what they are even referring but I think some concrete evidence might help explain what the proposal is driving at.

tl;dr: It wouldn't hurt to show (if possible) from some form of historical log specific evidence of what's supposed to have gone on. It might actually clear a lot up if something like that was shown.

[The Batorys]

You mean like besides the embassy which was given during the coup in exchange for support?

I'm seeing a lot of words and claims about Haven's involvement but no legitimate proof. Try again.

Yep. I'm seeing that accusation that the embassy was somehow an exchange of support.

That's ludicrous, to me. That's not what we use embassies for.

[Ramaeus]

Good? I guess?

I seriously know absolutely nothing about gameplay. It doesn't interest me, just like roleplay doesn't interest you.

Fair enough.

All i know right now is that a game mod is trolling the roleplay community, and that's seriously uncool. I have no interest in knowing anything about gameplay, because I have no intention of participating. I would appreciate the courtesy of not having to know, just as I don't expect you to know anything about roleplay, because this roleplayer has never even heard of you either.

First, Mall is a forum mod, not a game mod. Those are two very different things. Second, Mods are allowed to act as players. What point would there be in being a mod if you can't play the game? Third, the mods have already ruled that Mall's actions are perfectly legal. He isn't trolling. Fourth, the moderators already knew that Mall was a known raider. And they probably aren't surprised that he's doing something like this as a player. Finally, as has been pointed out above, GP is intricately linked with regions. You can't have one without the other. If you want to avoid being raided, then you should secure your region properly.

[Nierr]

I hate to generalize you all, but it really seems like Gameplayers can't formulate proper arguments. When you can come back with substantial proof stating that Haven - as a region - dedicated itself to the coup in TSP, you can try to advance this motion. Until then, this is just another bad argument brought forward.

Gameplayers have argued against this motion.

Gameplayers are part of the behind the scenes organising for what happens post-this shit gets passed.

Let's not generalise some of the people who are going to be working towards saving Haven, k?

[Vetok]

Still waiting for more names. Sorry about the coughing, it's that smoke machine Mallorea left running.

Oh wait, we've got Crave who Mallorea named and CTE'd last December, and we've got Hobbiest Republic who seems to be admitting to it...but is from an entirely different region.

If this was Mythbusters they wouldn't even consider doing a show on it it's that thin.

[The Batorys]

The members of the Concordat who signed on to support raiders do. But TSP wasn't a raid, it was a coup, a coup backed by around two hundred RP'ers, including some from Haven and Haven's express approval.

You are completely ignoring the other major faction there: the leftists. Embassies (which is by your own logic how we define support and being 'in on it') with The Internationale, Antifa and the Red Fleet say it all.


And I'd wager they contributed a damn site more WAs than RPers.

Especially as lots of RPers purposely aren't in the WA.

[Ambroscus Koth]

Roleplayers viciously assaulted the peaceful region known as The South Pacific, which devastated the Gameplay community. Such events are intolerable and thus we demand retribution. Therefore, I SUPPORT burning the entire RP world to the ground, starting here in Haven. May the RPers pay in blood for their crimes.

Care for a cookie?

Hell, I'll throw him a cookie just because he's doing what the lot of you aren't: discussing the actual thread topic.