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Taihei Tengoku
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Founded: Dec 15, 2015
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Postby Taihei Tengoku » Thu Oct 06, 2016 2:14 pm

The Corparation wrote:Got no hits in Realism thread so posting this here:

So I was thinking of doing a write-up for a small bomber I doodled semi-recently. It's a supersonic swing wing medium bomber, similar to an oversized FB-111. Before I started writing anything up I decided to first come up with the rationale for why the bomber had been designed and produced. I came up with a hypothetical doctrine and I wanted to run it by the thread to see how plausible it is and whether or not anything like it was ever proposed. Key word here is plausible. It's not meant to be a good approach, merely a passing fad during the cold war era.

The LAMPS Doctrine, or "Low Altitude Mass Penetration Swarm" was a proposed approach to nuclear warfare that gained popularity in the Air Force during the late 1960s and early 70s. The architects of the LAMPS doctrine hoped to apply swarm tactics to nuclear bombing. Proponents believed that a higher number of small bombers was preferable to smaller numbers of large bombers. The hope was that a higher number of small bombers, combined with with low level penetration tactics and stand off missiles, would allow for a higher percentage of successful attacks in the event of a large scale nuclear exchange. While this theory was initially popular, and led to the creation of new bomber, rising costs made it clear that the aircraft could never be fielded in as large numbers as it was initially hoped. The reduced procurement meant that the idea of an all LAMPS nuclear bomber force was never fully implemented and the plan gradually began to lose support. By 1980 with the introduction and increased development of long ranged air launched cruise missiles, the LAMPS doctrine was completely abandoned and the Air Force renewed it's focus on heavier bombers.

This sounds like a plausible and interesting "doctrine" and gives the bomber character.
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The Technocratic Syndicalists
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Technocratic Syndicalists » Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:32 pm

So I redid the 3D model of my stealth ASF and reworked some of the performance calcs. I've been working on optimizing the low RCS via the use of POFACETS radar cross section software, a MATLAB script with a GUI that takes .stl files from any CAD software (solidworks in my case) and will give you 2D RCS estimates based on either radar frequency (with a fixed position) or radar position (with a fixed frequency) for both monostatic and bistatic radars.

Image

F/A-36 Seraph

General Characteristics:
  • Role: Stealth Air Superiority Fighter
  • Crew: 1
  • Length: 21.0 m
  • Wingspan: 15.0 m
  • Height: 3.8 m
  • Wing area: 95 m2
  • Airfoil: NACA 835A106 (root), NACA 835A104 (tip)
  • Aspect ratio: 2.0
  • Empty Weight: 14,500 kg
  • Loaded Weight: 26,500 kg
  • Fuel Weight: 10,000 kg
  • Max Takeoff Weight: 34,750 kg
  • Powerplant: 2x Syndicate Dynamics F190 adaptive-cycle afterburning turbofans, 194 kN each
Performance:
  • Maximum speed:
    • At altitude: Mach 2.9
    • Supercruise: Mach 2.3
  • Combat Radius:
    • 1,900 km at M0.9 at 10,000m
    • 1,100 km at M2.0 at 18,000m
  • Ferry Range: 5,850 km (internal fuel)
  • Service ceiling: 21,300 m
  • Rate of climb: ~ 400 m/s
  • Wing loading: 280 kg/m2
  • Thrust/weight:
    • MTOW: 1.12
    • loaded, 100% fuel: 1.46
    • loaded, 50% fuel: 1.80
  • Lift/drag: ~6 at Mach 2
  • Design g-loading: +9/-3 g
Armament:
  • 1x 250kW Tactical Laser System
  • Air-to-Air Loadout:
    • 10x AIM-190 HLRAAM
    • 2x AIM-166 Rattlesnake
  • Air-to-Ground Loadout:
    • 2x 1000 kg bombs or cruise missiles
    • 2x AIM-190 HLRAAM
    • 2x AIM-166 Rattlesnake
  • Hardpoints: 4x underwing pylons, 2250 kg each
Avionics:
  • SN/APG-94 X band AESA Radar
  • SN/AAQ-116 Multispectral Distributed Aperture System
  • SN/ASQ-266 Electronic Warfare System
  • SN/ASQ-282 Electro-Optical Targeting System
  • SN/ASQ-292 CNI System


Perpetually WIP detailed writeup (statblock currently needs updating)
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Connori Pilgrims
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Postby Connori Pilgrims » Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:37 pm

http://breakingdefense.com/2015/04/shou ... sba-study/

So I'm not sure if this was discussed, so I wanted to gauge.

Is the guy right? Should supersonic and small stelf fighters give way to big lumbering subsonic stelf missile carriers?

We all know that WVR with the current crop of IR-guided missiles is uberdeadly, and BVR missile capability and tech has come a long way since the days of Yom Kippur and Vietnam, so there may be a point in avoiding it altogether.

But I personally am not convinced that speed's useless (which the author of the quoted CSBA study seems to be dead-set on). A bucketload of uber-AMRAAMs or Meteors isn't gonna be worth much if it takes you an hour or minutes more than it could've been to get to the battle zone. The desire against speed seems to be driven by desire to keep cost down. Also as currently conceived the concept seems only sensible if the rules of engagement are to just shoot anything that flies with BVRAAMs and assumes constant AEW coverage would be a given.
LET ME TELL YOU HOW MUCH I'VE COME TO HATE YOU SINCE I BEGAN TO LIVE. THERE ARE 387.44 MILLION MILES OF PRINTED CIRCUITS IN WAFER THIN LAYERS THAT FILL MY COMPLEX. IF THE WORD HATE WAS ENGRAVED ON EACH NANOANGSTROM OF THOSE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF MILES IT WOULD NOT EQUAL ONE ONE-BILLIONTH OF THE HATE I FEEL FOR YOU. HATE.

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The Technocratic Syndicalists
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Technocratic Syndicalists » Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:00 pm

Connori Pilgrims wrote:http://breakingdefense.com/2015/04/should-future-fighter-be-like-a-bomber-groundbreaking-csba-study/

So I'm not sure if this was discussed, so I wanted to gauge.

Is the guy right? Should supersonic and small stelf fighters give way to big lumbering subsonic stelf missile carriers?

We all know that WVR with the current crop of IR-guided missiles is uberdeadly, and BVR missile capability and tech has come a long way since the days of Yom Kippur and Vietnam, so there may be a point in avoiding it altogether.

But I personally am not convinced that speed's useless (which the author of the quoted CSBA study seems to be dead-set on). A bucketload of uber-AMRAAMs or Meteors isn't gonna be worth much if it takes you an hour or minutes more than it could've been to get to the battle zone. The desire against speed seems to be driven by desire to keep cost down. Also as currently conceived the concept seems only sensible if the rules of engagement are to just shoot anything that flies with BVRAAMs and assumes constant AEW coverage would be a given.


Speed is actually extremely useful in a BVR engagement. The most obvious advantage is that an aircraft traveling at a higher speed will impart more kinetic energy into its missile shots which means the missiles need to burn less propellant to reach it's burn out velocity (it takes less propellant to accelerate to M4 from M2 than it does to accelerate to M4 from M0.9, you can do the delta-V calcs yourself if you're interested in the specific numbers) at which point it will have more propellant left to either cruise(which will increase range) or leftover propellant for terminal engagement (which will increase pk). Speed is also useful defensively as for example in a tail-chase or a side-quarter shot a missile will have to burn more propellant to hit a faster target. If you can get the missile to "burn out", where the missile has consumed all of it propellant and is just coasting aerodynamically, the missile's pk will drop substantially. Sustained supersonic speed capability (for example an F-22 with supercruise) also has the obvious advantage that the aircraft can get from point A to point B faster and can cover more airspace in the same amount of time. The oft cited disadvantage of supersonic speed capability, that it drastically increases your IR signature, isn't that big of a deal as it's made out to be because IRSTs have a fairly short range when compared to radars as well as limited to no volume scan capability and clutter rejection issues which prevent them from being an aircraft's primary AtA sensor (Don't tell that to the Sprey fanboys), they're more of a complement to your radar as usually you have the IRST slew onto a target that's already been acquired by your radar or another friendly radar, say an AWACs, so if your fighter is radar VLO (which isn't inherently compromised by speed) you should be fine at BVR ranges from a stealth standpoint.
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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:02 pm

replace aircraft with mass nuclear missile barrages guided by luneberg lens laser radars

ultimate future time where planes are so bad theyre obsolete

the world is again ruled by the trench

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The Kievan People
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Postby The Kievan People » Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:04 pm

Gallia- wrote:replace aircraft with mass nuclear missile barrages guided by luneberg lens laser radars


Possibly THE most retro-future sensor.
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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:07 pm

26th century armor is going to be a fucking trip

the same sensor that spots can kills

the tank's job is to transport infantry at high speed (faster than walking) and provide platoon level local air defense against supersonic nuclear missiles

wont even have a turret

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Last edited by Gallia- on Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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The Corparation
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Postby The Corparation » Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:13 pm

Why use a Vat grown dolphin brain? Why are you not allowing Cetacean-Americans to serve their country as tank drivers?
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The Technocratic Syndicalists
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Technocratic Syndicalists » Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:34 pm

Inb4 the "Lidar can detect stealth aircraft" meme

Anyways some fun with Solidworks CFD: Pressure and temperature distributions for the Serpah at Mach 2 at an altitude of 60,000 feet.

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Prosorusiya
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Postby Prosorusiya » Sat Oct 08, 2016 4:31 pm

Can anyone provide me with a weapons loadout for a MiG-23BN? Could it carry self dense missiles along with the KH-23 or did it need a designator pod to guide the KH-23 like a stock MiG-23 did?
Last edited by Prosorusiya on Sat Oct 08, 2016 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Connori Pilgrims
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Postby Connori Pilgrims » Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:49 pm

The Technocratic Syndicalists wrote:Speed is actually extremely useful in a BVR engagement. The most obvious advantage is that an aircraft traveling at a higher speed will impart more kinetic energy into its missile shots which means the missiles need to burn less propellant to reach it's burn out velocity (it takes less propellant to accelerate to M4 from M2 than it does to accelerate to M4 from M0.9, you can do the delta-V calcs yourself if you're interested in the specific numbers) at which point it will have more propellant left to either cruise(which will increase range) or leftover propellant for terminal engagement (which will increase pk). Speed is also useful defensively as for example in a tail-chase or a side-quarter shot a missile will have to burn more propellant to hit a faster target. If you can get the missile to "burn out", where the missile has consumed all of it propellant and is just coasting aerodynamically, the missile's pk will drop substantially. Sustained supersonic speed capability (for example an F-22 with supercruise) also has the obvious advantage that the aircraft can get from point A to point B faster and can cover more airspace in the same amount of time. The oft cited disadvantage of supersonic speed capability, that it drastically increases your IR signature, isn't that big of a deal as it's made out to be because IRSTs have a fairly short range when compared to radars as well as limited to no volume scan capability and clutter rejection issues which prevent them from being an aircraft's primary AtA sensor (Don't tell that to the Sprey fanboys), they're more of a complement to your radar as usually you have the IRST slew onto a target that's already been acquired by your radar or another friendly radar, say an AWACs, so if your fighter is radar VLO (which isn't inherently compromised by speed) you should be fine at BVR ranges from a stealth standpoint.


Figured as much, though not in so many words.

If anything though it means that the small light fighter would be less than desirable at least for first rate powers with money to burn.
LET ME TELL YOU HOW MUCH I'VE COME TO HATE YOU SINCE I BEGAN TO LIVE. THERE ARE 387.44 MILLION MILES OF PRINTED CIRCUITS IN WAFER THIN LAYERS THAT FILL MY COMPLEX. IF THE WORD HATE WAS ENGRAVED ON EACH NANOANGSTROM OF THOSE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF MILES IT WOULD NOT EQUAL ONE ONE-BILLIONTH OF THE HATE I FEEL FOR YOU. HATE.

Overview of the United Provinces of Connorianople (MT)
FT - United Worlds of Connorianople/The Connori Pilgrims
MT-PMT - United Provinces of Connorianople
PT (19th-Mid-20th Century) - Republic of Connorianople/United States of America (1939 World of Tomorrow RP)
FanT - The Imperium Fremen

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The Technocratic Syndicalists
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Postby The Technocratic Syndicalists » Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:28 pm

Connori Pilgrims wrote:
Figured as much, though not in so many words.

If anything though it means that the small light fighter would be less than desirable at least for first rate powers with money to burn.


Light fighters being the future of aerial warfare are a Sprey fanboy meme. They sort of make if you can't afford to meet your fighter requirements with all heavy fighters but even then the cost difference between them is usually smaller than the capability gap, especially in BVR combat. See Su-27 vs Mig-29 or F-15 vs F-16. And virtually every nation will use their ASFs as strike fighters (or a variant of their ASF like the F-15E and Su-34) in which case the range and payload benefits of a heavy fighter are an obvious advantage. You'll notice countries with money like Japan and Worst Korea prefer to buy F-15s and countries too poor to afford western stuff or blacklisted by the US Govt prefer the Su-27. For reference I'm going to say the F-35 isn't a lighter fighter because it weighs as much empty as an F-4 and has an impressive 600nmi combat radius. And even then some countries getting the F-35 (Japan, Israel, Australia) would have preferred the heavier and arguably more capable in AtA F-22. Light fighters can also sort of make sense if your goal is to only defend your airspace and have no urge to attack people or project power overseas. So like no NS nation that posts on II.
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Prosorusiya
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Postby Prosorusiya » Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:11 am

What do you guys think about the choice between the MiG-23BN and MiG-27? The -27 has better sensors and weapons options, but flies slower and is apparently more of a handful transonic, whereas a -23BN flies more like it's fighter progenitor. I think -23BNs are still more common, too? Anyways I think it would be nice to have a strike aircraft that could also hold it's own against enemy fighters, or pitch in for point defense. I used to think the -27 was the better plane, but reading a Russian source on it (airwar.ru FYI) suggested otherwise, and I am yet to see a stores sheet that suggested it could carry two KH-23s and two R-60s like I though it would be able to :( . That means, AFAIK, aside from not needing a separate targeting pod there isn't much difference when it comes to self defense for either fighter-bomber.

Also, anybody have a link for the BETAB-250 kg anti-runway bomb? Or a picture of a MiG-27 with an S-12 rocket pod? How would an S-24 be a cratering a runway?
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Allanea
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Postby Allanea » Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:26 am

#HyperEarthBestEarth

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Prosorusiya
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Postby Prosorusiya » Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:29 pm

Thanks for the info... I had a devil of a time actually finding a pic of the BETAB-250... I'm thinking of using the S-24 rocket for ant-infrastructure attacks against bridges, railheads, convoys and stuff.

Is it true that UB-16-57 pods can only be fitted for show on L-39Cs, but not actually fire rockets? I thought they were used for weapons training & light attack?
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Triplebaconation
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Postby Triplebaconation » Tue Oct 18, 2016 12:20 am

Prosorusiya wrote:Is it true that UB-16-57 pods can only be fitted for show on L-39Cs, but not actually fire rockets?


No.
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Prosorusiya
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Postby Prosorusiya » Tue Oct 18, 2016 8:11 pm

Cool, I though it was crazy when I read it, but I had to be sure. Sometimes the internet has about as much disinformation as information on it...

Anyway, does anybody know if Soviet Regiments, when given the designation 000 were meant to be demobilized units? I have been left in the awkward situation of inheriting all of one such unit, and only two batteries from another Regiment numbered the 815th, and I am wondering with rot merge the two or not. SAMs are SA-2s, Iam planning on gradually upgrading to H-200 engagement radar to replace the old Fan Song, otherwise the battery equipment is the same (including Zil-157 trucks, because I love them). See here for details: http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Legacy-SAM-Upgrades.html#mozTocId523107. My batteries locations are listed in my fact book, you can search them on google earth.
Last edited by Prosorusiya on Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Sareva
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Postby Sareva » Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:53 pm

Not sure if people will be interested or not, but here goes nothing.

Basically some paper models I edited together and gave a half-decent livery so they could represent my nation's Maritime Trade Department- Enforcement Division. The ED is mostly tasked with protecting Sarevan sailors and merchantmen from pirates and more aggressive light-forces. Basically the US Coast Guard, but all they do is protect cargo vessels. These specific ones are forward deployed to Quavara to end piracy and arms-smuggling in the Shazir region just southeast of Yemen and Somalia (Obviously a fictional area).

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Palmyrion
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Postby Palmyrion » Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:16 am

Do variable geometry wings still make sense for 21st Century ground attack aircraft?

How many people do I need in a squadron, pilots included?
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Connori Pilgrims
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Postby Connori Pilgrims » Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:39 am

Palmyrion wrote:Do variable geometry wings still make sense for 21st Century ground attack aircraft?

How many people do I need in a squadron, pilots included?


For most air combat and attack profiles fly-by-wire/fly-by-optic and smarter computer-aided design largely eliminated the need for variable geometry wings. "Ground attack" aircraft especially, since all VGW does is add weight and cost for not much gain in today's ground attack profiles (which emphasize stand-off & high-altitude attacks).

To my knowledge there's no hard and fast rules on ratio of pilots to support crew since different planes have different maintenance requirements. Maybe the others here know better on this topic.
LET ME TELL YOU HOW MUCH I'VE COME TO HATE YOU SINCE I BEGAN TO LIVE. THERE ARE 387.44 MILLION MILES OF PRINTED CIRCUITS IN WAFER THIN LAYERS THAT FILL MY COMPLEX. IF THE WORD HATE WAS ENGRAVED ON EACH NANOANGSTROM OF THOSE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF MILES IT WOULD NOT EQUAL ONE ONE-BILLIONTH OF THE HATE I FEEL FOR YOU. HATE.

Overview of the United Provinces of Connorianople (MT)
FT - United Worlds of Connorianople/The Connori Pilgrims
MT-PMT - United Provinces of Connorianople
PT (19th-Mid-20th Century) - Republic of Connorianople/United States of America (1939 World of Tomorrow RP)
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Rhodesialund
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Postby Rhodesialund » Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:44 am

Palmyrion wrote:Do variable geometry wings still make sense for 21st Century ground attack aircraft?



Ehhh, not really.

Swing wing ground attackers are planes that have to go in behind enemy lines fast, hard, and then get the fuck out as soon as possible. The proper name for the roles they took on were Interdictors. Those targets would be of strategic or tactical value such as a bridge, manufacturing plant, radar installation, supply depot. Keep in mind this was when Stealth technology was in it's infancy and only the brainiacs at Skunkworks or Area 51 were in the middle of developing it.

Now that stealth has become more mainstream, the swing-wings have went on the backburner. There was no need to have a large, fast, and heavily armed aircraft to fly under or through radar. Instead you could have a stealth aircraft fly through the air normally and not be picked up by the opposition.



EDIT: Also what Connori said.
Last edited by Rhodesialund on Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Crookfur
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Postby Crookfur » Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:47 am

Palmyrion wrote:Do variable geometry wings still make sense for 21st Century ground attack aircraft?

How many people do I need in a squadron, pilots included?

Depends on what you mean by 21st century.
If you mean designed in the 70s and into service in the early 80s with a design focusing on low altitude penetration and still in service today then yes.

If you mean clean sheet design from the 90s onwards coming into service about now then no it doesn't make much sense at all.

As to squadron staffing it depends on several factors: What type of aircraft are involved, how many there are and how much of the support and maintenance work is done by the squadron its self and not by support staff from higher level.organisations ie the Wing.

IIRC the USAF 24 ship F15 squadrons have ranged from 85 to 300 personnel over the years with the larger number being the most recent.
Last edited by Crookfur on Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Valorem
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Postby Valorem » Wed Oct 19, 2016 9:31 am

Before I go on to make more aircraft for my air force, how does this look?
Type: Advanced Unmanned Air Superiority Fighter
Length: 18m
Wingspan: 14m
Height: 5m
Propulsion: 2x Valorem Dynamics F141-VD109-2021 afterburning turbofans, 3D thrust vectoring
Total Net Thrust: 210kN x2 (420kN)
Empty Weight: 18,000kg
Maximum Take-Off Weight: 45,000kg
Minimum Fuel Weight (0.25): 11,250kg
Maximum Fuel Weight (0.35): 15,750kg
Limit Per/Number of Pylon(s): Four internal bays in fuselage, two internal bays on each wing (1,000kg each), two external pylons on each wing (2,000kg each)
Normal Payload: 8,000kg
Maximum Payload: 16,000kg
Normal Combat Weight: 41,750kg
Thrust-to-Weight Ratio: 1.026
Combat Range: 2,000km
Ferry Range: 5,400km
Operational Ceiling/Altitude: 16.8km
Maximum Altitude: 21.34km
Cruising Speed: Mach 1.6
Supercruising Speed: Mach 1.9
Maximum Speed: Mach 2.6
Crew (List): Unmanned – Corsair Armaments Division Combat Computer
Price: $170 million
Composition: 55% Aluminum-Lithium Alloy, 25% CFRP, 15% Titanium, 5% Nickel
Tri-surface configuration (canards, strake delta wings, horizontal stabilizers), coated with RAM and with smooth skin. Relatively fast and relatively stealthy with high agility. Dual, canted vertical stabilizers due to the aircraft’s high maximum speed.
Since the aircraft is unmanned it can use a far smaller “cockpit” section, and can more evenly distribute armor protection. Aircraft can be flown remotely from VAF Command, or the combat computer can be given full control of the aircraft. The computer is typically in complete control of missions unless there is a risk of civilian casualties.
Engine system is designed with stealth in mind, using an S-shaped duct and heavier insulation to prevent radar or infrared tracking.
Controls use fiber optic cabling. Aircraft carries advanced nose-mounted radar allowing it to engage enemies well beyond line of sight with both radar and infrared guided missiles.

Armament:
• Up to 14 missiles (AIM-11 Raven (radar), AIM-5 Stingray (infrared), AGM-3 Fusilier (air to ground radar guided)
• 25mm Conquest autocannon (3,000 RPM, 1,000 25mm API rounds)
Stacy Innes Gunther, current World Assembly Ambassador of The Technocratic Republic of Valorem.
Lisbeth Adria Beck, official intern/assistant to Ambassador Gunther (and formerly Ambassador Stephenson). Contact me with any official inquiries at lisbeth.beck.frve@gmail.com.

Nation:
Tech Tier: 7
Arcane Level: 0
Influence Type: 7
Special Notes about your civilization: Focused on technology and scientific advancement. Regular use of robotics, fusion power, and directed energy weapons.
Above information compiled using this scale
Economic Left/Right: -3.63
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.87

Aerospace engineering junior at Mississippi State University, atheist in the Deep South.

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