Infantry Discussion Thread, Pattern 7: Sword Edition.

[Dostanuot Loj]

Wouldn't a large hammer or similar blunt-force weapon be more effective against a large crustacean?


Pardon my ignorance, but how the hell does that work?

To crack the shell, sure. But you won't be doing much damage, if any damage at all, since blunt weapons are supposed to cause damage through worn armour, like snapping bones, fucking up the brain, etc. Crabs have nothing like that, so you'd just be cracking its outer layer while doing no damage to the crab itself.

A hammer would only be good against the limbs (if they aren't totally gigantic), and not at all useful against the shell.

Since crabs have an exoskeleton, cracking the shell would be like breaking bones for a person.
Very very bad.

But I am at a loss why we are discussing crab battle here.

[Korva]

Should my crab soldiers wear camo clothing or just paint their shells with camo?

[Dostanuot Loj]

Should my crab soldiers wear camo clothing or just paint their shells with camo?

Obviously paint.
But be careful to make sure it's not water based, because it will wash off. But you also want to be able to repaint for new environments.

Best to genetically engineer them to grow shells in a good military colour like OD green or khaki, then apply paint as needed.

[Imperializt Russia]

Should my crab soldiers wear camo clothing or just paint their shells with camo?

As the Battle of the Atlantic taught us, crabs are very effective special forces troops.

[Fordorsia]

To crack the shell, sure. But you won't be doing much damage, if any damage at all, since blunt weapons are supposed to cause damage through worn armour, like snapping bones, fucking up the brain, etc. Crabs have nothing like that, so you'd just be cracking its outer layer while doing no damage to the crab itself.

A hammer would only be good against the limbs (if they aren't totally gigantic), and not at all useful against the shell.

Since crabs have an exoskeleton, cracking the shell would be like breaking bones for a person.
Very very bad.

But I am at a loss why we are discussing crab battle here.

Not really. They're like bones in that they provide structural support, but carapace doesn't break or snap like bones. You would have to do a lot of damage to a giant crab's leg to render it structurally unsound, unlike a bone that usually requires one crack, which would lead to it snapping if weight was applied to it.

[Dostanuot Loj]

Since crabs have an exoskeleton, cracking the shell would be like breaking bones for a person.
Very very bad.

But I am at a loss why we are discussing crab battle here.

Not really. They're like bones in that they provide structural support, but carapace doesn't break or snap like bones. You would have to do a lot of damage to a giant crab's leg to render it structurally unsound, unlike a bone that usually requires one crack, which would lead to it snapping if weight was applied to it.

I disagree.
I've seen lots of live crabs (also lobster and others) sustain mere cracks to their legs and have catastrophic consequences for the leg. Crabs have multiple legs though, and as such can carry on.
A cracked carapace is essentially a death sentence for a crab. They are unable to move quickly, and suffer other major issues. This is why sea gulls go crab fishing at low tide by dropping rocks on the beach, they don't need to crush the crab to get a meal. They barely need to hit it or have a ricochet hit it.

[Transvaal Vrystaat]

To crack the shell, sure. But you won't be doing much damage, if any damage at all, since blunt weapons are supposed to cause damage through worn armour, like snapping bones, fucking up the brain, etc. Crabs have nothing like that, so you'd just be cracking its outer layer while doing no damage to the crab itself.

A hammer would only be good against the limbs (if they aren't totally gigantic), and not at all useful against the shell.

I think you're underestimating the effect that cracking open the exoskeleton would have on a crustacean target. Even if doing so causes no "damage" to the target, it's significantly easier to kill a crab if it's fleshy bits are exposed.

Rendering a target immobile is hardly a insignificant thing either.

Should my crab soldiers wear camo clothing or just paint their shells with camo?

Genetically engineer them to change the color of their shells at will.

As the Battle of the Atlantic taught us, crabs are very effective special forces troops.

What now?

[Schwere Panzer Abieltung 502]

I'm still adamant that something like a Molotov cocktail would be very good at, if not killing a crab, then terrifying it to scare it away. It's a crab after all, and most animals don't know much more about fire than "HOT HOT RUN AWAY!!"

Large-scale ballistae and windlass crossbows would similarly be likely to penetrate the carapace - they almost certainly have the kinetic energy to do a great deal of damage. You could use a tank trap and Czech hedgehogs to force the crab into a pit where it can be trapped, and you can pour greek fire on it and windlass crossbows etc with impunity.

[Transvaal Vrystaat]

I'm still adamant that something like a Molotov cocktail would be very good at, if not killing a crab, then terrifying it to scare it away. It's a crab after all, and most animals don't know much more about fire than "HOT HOT RUN AWAY!!"

Large-scale ballistae and windlass crossbows would similarly be likely to penetrate the carapace - they almost certainly have the kinetic energy to do a great deal of damage. You could use a tank trap and Czech hedgehogs to force the crab into a pit where it can be trapped, and you can pour greek fire on it and windlass crossbows etc with impunity.

Alternatively, you could just shoot them until they stop moving.

[Imperializt Russia]

As the Battle of the Atlantic taught us, crabs are very effective special forces troops.

What now?

I'm making a pubic lice joke.

[Fordorsia]

Not really. They're like bones in that they provide structural support, but carapace doesn't break or snap like bones. You would have to do a lot of damage to a giant crab's leg to render it structurally unsound, unlike a bone that usually requires one crack, which would lead to it snapping if weight was applied to it.

I disagree.
I've seen lots of live crabs (also lobster and others) sustain mere cracks to their legs and have catastrophic consequences for the leg. Crabs have multiple legs though, and as such can carry on.
A cracked carapace is essentially a death sentence for a crab. They are unable to move quickly, and suffer other major issues. This is why sea gulls go crab fishing at low tide by dropping rocks on the beach, they don't need to crush the crab to get a meal. They barely need to hit it or have a ricochet hit it.

I agree that cracks fuck them up, but that's with normal sized crabs sustaining said cracks from birds biggers than then or by people hitting them with hammer or whatever. Carapace doesn't have much going for it when the thing attacking it is bigger than it, and a predator of it.

The only way you will cause life threatening damage to a giant crab's shell is by being bigger than it. It will take you a long ass time to cause enough damage to its shell with a hammer to be life threatening.

It's not really a case of simply scaling up the crab to the desired size, but however youdesign the giant crab, the shell will still be far, far thicker than the shell of any real crabs. You would have to work your way along the shell to properly break it open, all while it's trying to kill you.

I'm still adamant that something like a Molotov cocktail would be very good at, if not killing a crab, then terrifying it to scare it away. It's a crab after all, and most animals don't know much more about fire than "HOT HOT RUN AWAY!!"

Large-scale ballistae and windlass crossbows would similarly be likely to penetrate the carapace - they almost certainly have the kinetic energy to do a great deal of damage. You could use a tank trap and Czech hedgehogs to force the crab into a pit where it can be trapped, and you can pour greek fire on it and windlass crossbows etc with impunity.

Unless you hit a flat surface, which may be difficult given the design of a crab, I reckon bolts would glance off pretty easily.

[Sevvania]

Light ("knee") mortars, rifle grenades, and standalone launchers for rifle grenades. If I have rifle grenades, does it negate the need for the other two? What are the pros and cons of each? Which of the three would ultimately be the most useful?

[Korva]

Light mortars are going to hit 600-800m out. Rifle grenades less than 300m. So have both, but probably replace the rifle grenades with UBGLs whenever possible.

[Verdiga]

Another weapon of the Verdiger Military, as well as, to some extent, SWAT forces.

Aldor HG3 Tactical Shotgun

(OOC: Based on the Combat Shotgun in RAGE)

Uses 12 gauge cartridges
Has a semi-automatic mode for up to 8 rounds/sec or a pump action mode for non-lethal rounds (for crowd control)
Reloads using magazine.

[Sevvania]

Light mortars are going to hit 600-800m out. Rifle grenades less than 300m. So have both, but probably replace the rifle grenades with UBGLs whenever possible.

The effective range of the Japanese Type 89 light mortar is listed as 120m, though. Sevvania is set in the 1940s so I probably won't be adopting underbarrel launchers for a while.

[Arkandros]

Light mortars are going to hit 600-800m out. Rifle grenades less than 300m. So have both, but probably replace the rifle grenades with UBGLs whenever possible.

Is there a significant performance difference between rifle grenades and UBGLs? Also, at what point does the additional weight of the launcher get balanced out?

[Purpelia]

If you ask me you should use both. UGLs are for when your squad needs to get a bomb through a window or something. RG's are for when you need to drop 10 bombs on top of an enemy position right bloody now.

[New Visegrad]

As far as tank-sized crabs, though, it's really not possible due to the square cube law - in other words, you can't just make something 10x larger and expect nothing to change. Most more complex seaborne animals breathe, for example, through gas exchange with their gills; these would not function the same in a gigantic crab; whales had to evolve very whale-specific functions to breathe. Further, while such a crab might be able to stand in water due to buoyancy, it would certainly die quickly under its own weight on land.

I'm not saying you've got a bad idea - these sorts of things are cool to make plans for how you'd react, like zombie apocalypses - but do your research when it comes to crabs - you might find a weakness that's not under the realm of 'well its impossible'.

This is what I was saying about large crustaceans having to save weight. I know they need water to support them (mostly - crabs can actually move surprisingly fast out of water) and I also know that you can't just scale things up and get the same results but larger.

The initial background is that it's a keterverlaidhe (ketter ver lay day), a hunting weapon originally used by a species that had to deal with their planet being full of large crustaceans instead of large mammals.

Wouldn't a large hammer or similar blunt-force weapon be more effective against a large crustacean?

Depends on what you're trying to do with it.

Soldiers (the only officer rank is troop commander, which is a guy in charge of ten other guys, and TC assignments can change)

Pardon my ignorance, but how the hell does that work?

A troop (10+1 men) is the tactical unit of choice. Troops operate mostly independently, coordinated by operations AIs and human personnel aboard their home ships. Troopers are given roles, not ranks, and given orders appropriately either directly from the battlenet or via their TC. When multiple TCs are involved in an operation, they are expected to work together rather than compete for absolute command.
(Technically there is another officer rank, ship commander, but that's not infantry.)

1) It doesn't need to bend when the blow glances off or gets stopped dead. Carapace isn't like plate in the way that it's worn. It's attached to its body, meaning it won't break as easily as if it wasn't part of the body.

I'd like you to try stabbing a crab shell with a thin metal pole or skewer vs stabbing a tin can with same pole, and observing the results.

2) That's a grey area, because giant crustaceans won't have the natural predators needed to have such biology. The largest crusecean, the sea scoprion, could reach up to 2.5 metres. It's up for debate whether or not a giant crab could survive, but it depends entirely on how you design the creature. That said, carapace is still too tough and curved to simply stab with a spear, and a huge crab able to survive on land will have formidable armour to protect it from equally powerful predators.

What equally powerful predators? They're all fucking crabs. They are the predators. It's not like they're going to be attacked by giant lions or whatever.

3) You will have a hard time getting the right angle to attack the belly, and even then it will be a job to penetrate enough to cause much damage. But again this depends on the size and ground clearance of the crab.

I'd like to see your source on that, please.

[Korva]

Light mortars are going to hit 600-800m out. Rifle grenades less than 300m. So have both, but probably replace the rifle grenades with UBGLs whenever possible.

Is there a significant performance difference between rifle grenades and UBGLs? Also, at what point does the additional weight of the launcher get balanced out?

Rifle grenades can have outsize warheads by virtue of not fitting into a launcher. By that same token they will be larger and heavier. The French APAV 40 is roughly twice as heavy as M203 rounds.

[Purpelia]

3) You will have a hard time getting the right angle to attack the belly, and even then it will be a job to penetrate enough to cause much damage. But again this depends on the size and ground clearance of the crab.

I'd like to see your source on that, please.

I imagine having to be directly under the crab to get that angle might have something to do with it. If we assume the thing is trying to kill you that is.

[New Visegrad]

I'd like to see your source on that, please.

I imagine having to be directly under the crab to get that angle might have something to do with it. If we assume the thing is trying to kill you that is.

You could come at it from behind, or make a trench and wait for it to pass over you. Or you could have some of your friends distract it, because someone who goes giant-crab-hunting alone is someone who only goes giant-crab-hunting once.

[Allanea]

Beat it with a warhammer.

[Puzikas]

IDT: Crab edition

[Purpelia]

I imagine having to be directly under the crab to get that angle might have something to do with it. If we assume the thing is trying to kill you that is.

You could come at it from behind, or make a trench and wait for it to pass over you. Or you could have some of your friends distract it, because someone who goes giant-crab-hunting alone is someone who only goes giant-crab-hunting once.

All of which require time, effort and coordination thus making them the opposite of easy.

[Crookfur]

Another weapon of the Verdiger Military, as well as, to some extent, SWAT forces.

Aldor HG3 Tactical Shotgun

(Image)

(OOC: Based on the Combat Shotgun in RAGE)

Uses 12 gauge cartridges
It's semi-automatic up to 4 rounds/sec

If its semi auto you generally don't need to mention the cyclic rate, its just another detail to get wrong.

4rps i.e. 240rpm is also fairly slow for a shotgun. Actual rates of fire for "normal" semi auto shotguns tend to be about 7rps (420rpm) or so before shooters start pulling the trigger faster than the gun can complete a cycle and reset and a few like the FN SLP/Winchesthair SX2 have been clocked at 9rps.