Infantry Discussion Thread, Pattern 7: Sword Edition.

[Fordorsia]

Ugh, fiiiiiiiiiine

Point me to sources or whatever you big meanie

http://www.roman-empire.net/army/army.html

Might be some stuff here.

Fuck

[Aqizithiuda]

http://www.roman-empire.net/army/army.html

Might be some stuff here.

Fuck

FWIW immunes were technically combat troops and were counted as such when the ancient authors outlined the structure of the army.

[Fordorsia]

Fuck

FWIW immunes were technically combat troops and were counted as such when the ancient authors outlined the structure of the army.

Initially I thought Immunes, being immune from combat duties, were soldiers like Vorenus and Pullo, sent to do other jobs instead of fighting. Knowing it's a term for a bunch of jobs I can just title in English makes things simpler. Might take some work organizing them though.

[Aqizithiuda]

FWIW immunes were technically combat troops and were counted as such when the ancient authors outlined the structure of the army.

Initially I thought Immunes, being immune from combat duties, were soldiers like Vorenus and Pullo, sent to do other jobs instead of fighting. Knowing it's a term for a bunch of jobs I can just title in English makes things simpler. Might take some work organizing them though.

They were immune from guard duty, digging in and other menial tasks, and they were probably kept towards the rear of their formations (most would probably have served long enough to be out of the hastati), but they were expected to fight.

Are we thinking of the same Vorenus and Pullo? Two centurions under Caesar?

[Fordorsia]

Initially I thought Immunes, being immune from combat duties, were soldiers like Vorenus and Pullo, sent to do other jobs instead of fighting. Knowing it's a term for a bunch of jobs I can just title in English makes things simpler. Might take some work organizing them though.

They were immune from guard duty, digging in and other menial tasks, and they were probably kept towards the rear of their formations (most would probably have served long enough to be out of the hastati), but they were expected to fight.

Are we thinking of the same Vorenus and Pullo? Two centurions under Caesar?

Well engineers fell under Immunes. They'd still have labourous jobs compared to other Immunes. So if they were all previously combat troops, I imagine their fighting abilities wouldn't really be up to par unless they had been legionnaires for quite some time or they also took part in combat training.

I was thinking of the two from the show. If I remember rightly both are often removed from their duties to go deliver messages and stuff. Reading the brief description of Immunes I assumed that would be what classes one as an Immune.


Unrelated, apparently POWs of the Battle of Teutoburg Forest were still being recovered up to 40 years after the battle. It may be an exaggeration, but every exaggeration starts somewhere. God damn.

Edit: Actually it doesn't even seem to be an exaggeration. It seems Publius Pomponius Secundus under Claudius found them after sending two columns to push back the invading Chatti in Germania Superior. I can't find how many of them there were though. Likely only a handful.

[Alimeria-]

And something completely unrelated

[The balkens]

And something completely unrelated

"Lukas! Lukas WHAT THE FUCK!? WHY IS HE CHARGING THAT ENEMY LINE WITH A C96!? IS HE MAD!?" Herr Hauptmann! Sergeant Dardec has a Hatchet attached to his stock!" "Ah......I see his inner Dane is coming out....."

[The Great Nation of Dan]

And something completely unrelated

Glorious...I thought making the holster into a stock was perfection. I have now seen the blessings of the Taciticool Gun Gods themselves touching earth.

[Doppio Giudici]

Can anyone name the helmet that is mostly round and looks like a motorcycle helmet?

GRU used it.

[Gallia-]

Can anyone name the helmet that is mostly round and looks like a motorcycle helmet?

GRU used it.

Skat-2

[Sediczja]

Can anyone name the helmet that is mostly round and looks like a motorcycle helmet?

GRU used it.

Sfera?

Could be what Galla said too, they look kinda similar.

[Nueva San Cristobel]

Anything particularly wrong with my continuing to use the Right Arm of Democracy circa 2020 AD? (Replacement for a lighter rounded rifle I consider to be rather impossible due to the fact everyone in my region seems to field ceramic plate armor).

[Spirit of Hope]

Anything particularly wrong with my continuing to use the Right Arm of Democracy circa 2020 AD? (Replacement for a lighter rounded rifle I consider to be rather impossible due to the fact everyone in my region seems to field ceramic plate armor).

Do you mean the FAL? There is nothing wrong with it, though it either means carrying less ammo for the same weight, or the same amount of ammo for more weight.

Additionally ceramic armor isn't really that big an impediment to lighter rounds. If you get shot, even if it hits the armor, that person is probably going to be out of the fight. They are likely to be heavily bruised, with potential broken ribs. In addition small arms cause a rather small amount of casualties, so using a lighter round that may kill/injure less isn't a major loss in combat ability.

[Elan Valleys]

Anything particularly wrong with my continuing to use the Right Arm of Democracy circa 2020 AD? (Replacement for a lighter rounded rifle I consider to be rather impossible due to the fact everyone in my region seems to field ceramic plate armor).

Do you mean the FAL? There is nothing wrong with it, though it either means carrying less ammo for the same weight, or the same amount of ammo for more weight.

Additionally ceramic armor isn't really that big an impediment to lighter rounds. If you get shot, even if it hits the armor, that person is probably going to be out of the fight. They are likely to be heavily bruised, with potential broken ribs. In addition small arms cause a rather small amount of casualties, so using a lighter round that may kill/injure less isn't a major loss in combat ability.

Plenty of accounts of troops in Afghanistan not noticing that they'd been hit by non-penetrating AK hits until after the shooting stopped and adrenaline wore off.

[Arthurista]

Anything particularly wrong with my continuing to use the Right Arm of Democracy circa 2020 AD? (Replacement for a lighter rounded rifle I consider to be rather impossible due to the fact everyone in my region seems to field ceramic plate armor).

Do you mean the FAL? There is nothing wrong with it, though it either means carrying less ammo for the same weight, or the same amount of ammo for more weight.

Additionally ceramic armor isn't really that big an impediment to lighter rounds. If you get shot, even if it hits the armor, that person is probably going to be out of the fight. They are likely to be heavily bruised, with potential broken ribs. In addition small arms cause a rather small amount of casualties, so using a lighter round that may kill/injure less isn't a major loss in combat ability.

Would something like a modded Keltec RFB be a rather ideal solution for a modern battle rifle? With bullpup and polymer architecture it seems to have eliminated two of the FAL's biggest problems - length and weight. It even takes FAL mags, so reservists and such can keep the old rifle if necessary.

[Imperializt Russia]

Do you mean the FAL? There is nothing wrong with it, though it either means carrying less ammo for the same weight, or the same amount of ammo for more weight.

Additionally ceramic armor isn't really that big an impediment to lighter rounds. If you get shot, even if it hits the armor, that person is probably going to be out of the fight. They are likely to be heavily bruised, with potential broken ribs. In addition small arms cause a rather small amount of casualties, so using a lighter round that may kill/injure less isn't a major loss in combat ability.

Plenty of accounts of troops in Afghanistan not noticing that they'd been hit by non-penetrating AK hits until after the shooting stopped and adrenaline wore off.

Adrenaline sometimes also causes people to not notice penetrating hits.

[Elan Valleys]

Plenty of accounts of troops in Afghanistan not noticing that they'd been hit by non-penetrating AK hits until after the shooting stopped and adrenaline wore off.

Adrenaline sometimes also causes people to not notice penetrating hits.

It was just a thought. Nowhere throughout my recent reading of lots of 'TIC lit', have I seen reference to someone being out of the fight because of a bullet being stopped by their armour.

I'm sure it does happen, though.

[Spirit of Hope]

Adrenaline sometimes also causes people to not notice penetrating hits.

It was just a thought. Nowhere throughout my recent reading of lots of 'TIC lit', have I seen reference to someone being out of the fight because of a bullet being stopped by their armour.

I'm sure it does happen, though.

They may not be out of the fight right away, but once the firefight is over they are going to need medical attention. Plus while there are plenty of stories of soldiers fighting through non penetrating hits, from my talks to veterans they are generally in the minority. There to my knowledge has been no real study of this.

Plus really even wearing armor soldiers are going to be suppressed the same by 5.56 as by 7.62. And suppression is what you do far more with small arms fire.

Do you mean the FAL? There is nothing wrong with it, though it either means carrying less ammo for the same weight, or the same amount of ammo for more weight.

Additionally ceramic armor isn't really that big an impediment to lighter rounds. If you get shot, even if it hits the armor, that person is probably going to be out of the fight. They are likely to be heavily bruised, with potential broken ribs. In addition small arms cause a rather small amount of casualties, so using a lighter round that may kill/injure less isn't a major loss in combat ability.

Would something like a modded Keltec RFB be a rather ideal solution for a modern battle rifle? With bullpup and polymer architecture it seems to have eliminated two of the FAL's biggest problems - length and weight. It even takes FAL mags, so reservists and such can keep the old rifle if necessary.

Lowering the weapons weight will probably increase the impulse from recoil, effectively making your soldiers feel more recoil. How big an issue this is I don't know, but I don't think to big. It is not just the weapons weight but also the ammo's weight.

660 rounds of 5.56, including magazines, weighs in at around 10 kg.
280 rounds of 7.62, including magazines, weighs in at around 9.5 kg.

So 660 rounds of 7.62 would weigh around 22 kg.

[Imperializt Russia]

Fair point.
In any case, a rifleman is more likely to be winded by non-penetrating fire to the plate rather than rendered incapable as though he had been shot. It's hardly the same as "wounding cartridges need two men to drag one out", but it will almost certainly impact one's ability to fight.

It's all well and good carrying your bodyweight in plate carrier for LIC, but for mechanised conflict I can't see troops carrying IOTV and full protection. Too much weight and bulk, surely.

[Elan Valleys]

In the NS world, where a single death is not a crushing tactical defeat, I think PASGT level makes sense.

Elan Valleys troops use Osprey, but only use the front plate unless they're on stationary jobs like gate guard or sentry, leaving the side and back plates in the rear.

[Gallia-]

Can anyone name the helmet that is mostly round and looks like a motorcycle helmet?

GRU used it.

Sfera?

Could be what Galla said too, they look kinda similar.

Sphera is only used by the MVD iirc, and it is very old. It's basically a WW2 helmet. Skat-2 has things like visors, night vision clips, light rails, padding, etc. It's the newer motorcycle helmet. I don't know if Spetsnas GRU uses it, though.

[Sediczja]

Sfera?

Could be what Galla said too, they look kinda similar.

Sphera is only used by the MVD iirc, and it is very old. It's basically a WW2 helmet. Skat-2 has things like visors, night vision clips, light rails, padding, etc. It's the newer motorcycle helmet. I don't know if Spetsnas GRU uses it, though.

Eh, according to Wiki it was introduced in 1981 and updated in 1994. True, though, it's pretty much MVD-exclusive.

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

It's the newer motorcycle helmet.

I read that as "It's the never motorcycle helmet" and wutted for a solid 5 minutes. :[

[Immoren]

It's the newer motorcycle helmet.

I read that as "It's the never motorcycle helmet" and wutted for a solid 5 minutes. :[

Purp has infected you-

[Gallia-]

Sphera is only used by the MVD iirc, and it is very old. It's basically a WW2 helmet. Skat-2 has things like visors, night vision clips, light rails, padding, etc. It's the newer motorcycle helmet. I don't know if Spetsnas GRU uses it, though.

Eh, according to Wiki it was introduced in 1981 and updated in 1994. True, though, it's pretty much MVD-exclusive.

1981, actually. 1994 was merely the steel version.