NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Type 08

[Korva]

Tanks aren't the only defensive force multiplier.

My post is made entirely on the basis of assuming Korva is correct in that Poland stations its newer tanks in the west with older units in the east, fyi.
I have no real knowledge of Poland's capabilities whatsoever.
It's like the second or third largest tank fleet in Europe excluding Russia though, I think.

Korva, Type-99s are probably worse than "early" T-90s, and are probably closer in capability to early T-72s. They don't even have muzzle reference sensors, which I assume the T-90 and later T-72s probably feature.

Don't take my word for it

T-90A and T-90 lacked MRS as well.

[United Marxist Nations]

Tanks aren't the only defensive force multiplier.

My post is made entirely on the basis of assuming Korva is correct in that Poland stations its newer tanks in the west with older units in the east, fyi.
I have no real knowledge of Poland's capabilities whatsoever.
It's like the second or third largest tank fleet in Europe excluding Russia though, I think.

Korva, Type-99s are probably worse than "early" T-90s, and are probably closer in capability to early T-72s. They don't even have muzzle reference sensors, which I assume the T-90 and later T-72s probably feature.

Don't take my word for it

T-90A and T-90 lacked MRS as well.

Ehk, then what would be a more modern T-90 model (excluding T-90MS) that would have that (among other things)?

[Dragvania]

i keep running into RPers that try to pull numbers like 34k war ships or 2M aircraft. Would it be good to try to make a rule list that forces players to start with a set amount of resource units to make a starting army and then over several turns "a turn being 1 post from everyone in a cycle" increase size of their army as well as a unit cap?

I just want to see if anyone else thinks this is a good idea or simply to controlling.

Good idea, if not the best execution in my opinion. The way you pose your idea it seems like something out of an RTS (which in itself is a numberwanking game genre (zerg rushing ftw)). What I'd do instead is agree beforehand what a reasonable force for each participant is, then if they want to bring in reinforcements, they have to go through the OP. Don't give 'em a hard cap that lifts each round of posting.

I chose a hard cap to prevent 4 year old accounts with 20 trillion people from being the €%#! Out of newb players with only a few million or billion.

All the rules can be bent after discussion and I'm planning on getting together multiple rule sets both absolutly strict and locked in place to more flexible rules to allow factions to gain more individual power.

I'm also trying to come up with a way to make costs for units based on factbook details so my Centurion IVs that wiegh 300+ tons cost much more than my Beserker IIs that are almost glorified sheet metal on tracks with a big gun. (20mm armor is the thickest plate)

By this logic i should make only 30 Centurion IVs with the same amount of materials it takes to build 100s if the Beserker IIs.

About the WW2 tank the Maus- explains that 150+ ton tanks are possible and have been done

PS: yes tanks can be VERY heavy and it has been done in WW2 with the Maus or Mouse in English. The Mouse was 150+ tons and still went 35km a hour, only 2 were ever made due to complications with crossing rivers (because no bridge could carry this tank and it was not amphibious) and those 2 were found by the Russians and deemed impractical and useless. If however they were used in a dry land with few lakes, rivers or other terrain based obstructions the Mouse is probably the most dangerous single tank to have ever existed during WW2 because of its thick armor, massive gun, and almost comical speed.

[Dragvania]

I had a go at calculating APFSDS penetration for my Not!Rooikat. Assuming its 90mm gun could be made to throw ammunition at 1,700m/s, and that the projectile was 700mm long with a diameter of 2.5cm, and that it had a terminal velocity of 1,400m/s, I got ~540mm RHA penetration at 4000m.

Does that seem vaguely reasonable or did I do something really wrong?

Idk mm to cm translation but the 90mm is the diamiter

[Stahn]

Good idea, if not the best execution in my opinion. The way you pose your idea it seems like something out of an RTS (which in itself is a numberwanking game genre (zerg rushing ftw)). What I'd do instead is agree beforehand what a reasonable force for each participant is, then if they want to bring in reinforcements, they have to go through the OP. Don't give 'em a hard cap that lifts each round of posting.

I chose a hard cap to prevent 4 year old accounts with 20 trillion people from being the €%#! Out of newb players with only a few million or billion.

All the rules can be bent after discussion and I'm planning on getting together multiple rule sets both absolutly strict and locked in place to more flexible rules to allow factions to gain more individual power.

I'm also trying to come up with a way to make costs for units based on factbook details so my Centurion IVs that wiegh 300+ tons cost much more than my Beserker IIs that are almost glorified sheet metal on tracks with a big gun. (20mm armor is the thickest plate)

By this logic i should make only 30 Centurion IVs with the same amount of materials it takes to build 100s if the Beserker IIs.

About the WW2 tank the Maus- explains that 150+ ton tanks are possible and have been done

PS: yes tanks can be VERY heavy and it has been done in WW2 with the Maus or Mouse in English. The Mouse was 150+ tons and still went 35km a hour, only 2 were ever made due to complications with crossing rivers (because no bridge could carry this tank and it was not amphibious) and those 2 were found by the Russians and deemed impractical and useless. If however they were used in a dry land with few lakes, rivers or other terrain based obstructions the Mouse is probably the most dangerous single tank to have ever existed during WW2 because of its thick armor, massive gun, and almost comical speed.

35km/h? Where did you get that from?

[Calla]

About the WW2 tank the Maus- explains that 150+ ton tanks are possible and have been done

PS: yes tanks can be VERY heavy and it has been done in WW2 with the Maus or Mouse in English. The Mouse was 150+ tons and still went 35km a hour, only 2 were ever made due to complications with crossing rivers (because no bridge could carry this tank and it was not amphibious) and those 2 were found by the Russians and deemed impractical and useless. If however they were used in a dry land with few lakes, rivers or other terrain based obstructions the Mouse is probably the most dangerous single tank to have ever existed during WW2 because of its thick armor, massive gun, and almost comical speed.

Uh. No.
Maus could not go 35 kph.
It was designed to do 20 kph, but could not do better than 13 kph.

It was 188 tons.

2 complete hulls were built, a third was almost finished, and several others were in various stages of completion. There was 1 functional turret, and a couple others almost finished.

The Maus was a massive waste of resources, and would never have made an impact on the war. When it was being built, the Germans had completely lost air-superiority, which is what would have doomed the Maus: being bombed, long before it got anywhere important. Also the fact that it had an operation range of less than 100 miles on roads that could actually support it, 62 miles maximum otherwise. Meaning you had to lay rail so close to anywhere you want to put the Maus.

It was a stupid, ignorant idea, that wasted vast amounts of resources, man hours, and manufacturing facilities.

[Purpelia]

Honestly speaking the maus was useless even if it had been used in a situation without those factors. You do not need aircraft or artillery to destroy it. All you have to do is move out of the way. What's it going to do? Chase you? Given its fuel and maintenance needs and the fact the crew needs to sleep chances are marching infantry can outpace it. You can just completely avoid it and let it sit in your rear, unable to move anywhere or do anything and wait until it runs out of fuel, which will happen within a day. That is assuming it can even get to the front lines before the war is over. Seriously, the Russians captured this thing near the end of the war. They fixed it up and got it going on its own power to Moscow for testing. It arrived in May 1946.

[Korva]

idk, Maus is good on Pearl River cause it can be used to block the bridge so that subhuman pubbies don't rush to their deaths

[Stahn]

idk, Maus is good on Pearl River cause it can be used to block the bridge so that subhuman pubbies don't rush to their deaths

Subhuman pubbies? What is that?

[Korva]

idk, Maus is good on Pearl River cause it can be used to block the bridge so that subhuman pubbies don't rush to their deaths

Subhuman pubbies? What is that?

it was a joke

Pubbies are the players of World of Tanks that you encounter when doing Random Battle.

[Crookfur]

Good idea, if not the best execution in my opinion. The way you pose your idea it seems like something out of an RTS (which in itself is a numberwanking game genre (zerg rushing ftw)). What I'd do instead is agree beforehand what a reasonable force for each participant is, then if they want to bring in reinforcements, they have to go through the OP. Don't give 'em a hard cap that lifts each round of posting.

I chose a hard cap to prevent 4 year old accounts with 20 trillion people from being the €%#! Out of newb players with only a few million or billion.

All the rules can be bent after discussion and I'm planning on getting together multiple rule sets both absolutly strict and locked in place to more flexible rules to allow factions to gain more individual power.

I'm also trying to come up with a way to make costs for units based on factbook details so my Centurion IVs that wiegh 300+ tons cost much more than my Beserker IIs that are almost glorified sheet metal on tracks with a big gun. (20mm armor is the thickest plate)

By this logic i should make only 30 Centurion IVs with the same amount of materials it takes to build 100s if the Beserker IIs.

About the WW2 tank the Maus- explains that 150+ ton tanks are possible and have been done

PS: yes tanks can be VERY heavy and it has been done in WW2 with the Maus or Mouse in English. The Mouse was 150+ tons and still went 35km a hour, only 2 were ever made due to complications with crossing rivers (because no bridge could carry this tank and it was not amphibious) and those 2 were found by the Russians and deemed impractical and useless. If however they were used in a dry land with few lakes, rivers or other terrain based obstructions the Mouse is probably the most dangerous single tank to have ever existed during WW2 because of its thick armor, massive gun, and almost comical speed.

4 year old nations? Nothing but young whipersnapper newbies to those of us in or approaching our 12th year (and just about reaching 26billion)

To be honest stuff like you are proposing has been tried umpteen times and generally arbitrary rules sets tend to end up not working. Pop caps can work and are certainly a good tool for making playing realistically easier but for everything else as long as you have some sort of idea of how RL nations actually work it best just to try your hardest to play as a realistic nation.

Mega tanks etc already have a cost and even with uncapped full ns populations they would largely fall into the unaffordable or at best not field able in useful numbers category.

In short look at what RL nations can actually afford to have and how they can afford to use it and encourage those you RP with to do the same. It will also help if you ignore outlier nations like isreal and n Korea unless you really know the stories there and how they apply to your nation and it's situation.

[Yukonastan]

I had a go at calculating APFSDS penetration for my Not!Rooikat. Assuming its 90mm gun could be made to throw ammunition at 1,700m/s, and that the projectile was 700mm long with a diameter of 2.5cm, and that it had a terminal velocity of 1,400m/s, I got ~540mm RHA penetration at 4000m.

Does that seem vaguely reasonable or did I do something really wrong?

Idk mm to cm translation but the 90mm is the diamiter

No. Drag, your math is off. The round is a 25mm finned armor-piercing dart, carried in a 90mm diameter sabot. The 25mm is the part we're interested in. @Auro that seems vaguely reasonable.

[San-Silvacian]

Good idea, if not the best execution in my opinion. The way you pose your idea it seems like something out of an RTS (which in itself is a numberwanking game genre (zerg rushing ftw)). What I'd do instead is agree beforehand what a reasonable force for each participant is, then if they want to bring in reinforcements, they have to go through the OP. Don't give 'em a hard cap that lifts each round of posting.

I chose a hard cap to prevent 4 year old accounts with 20 trillion people from being the €%#! Out of newb players with only a few million or billion.

All the rules can be bent after discussion and I'm planning on getting together multiple rule sets both absolutly strict and locked in place to more flexible rules to allow factions to gain more individual power.

I'm also trying to come up with a way to make costs for units based on factbook details so my Centurion IVs that wiegh 300+ tons cost much more than my Beserker IIs that are almost glorified sheet metal on tracks with a big gun. (20mm armor is the thickest plate)

By this logic i should make only 30 Centurion IVs with the same amount of materials it takes to build 100s if the Beserker IIs.

About the WW2 tank the Maus- explains that 150+ ton tanks are possible and have been done

PS: yes tanks can be VERY heavy and it has been done in WW2 with the Maus or Mouse in English. The Mouse was 150+ tons and still went 35km a hour, only 2 were ever made due to complications with crossing rivers (because no bridge could carry this tank and it was not amphibious) and those 2 were found by the Russians and deemed impractical and useless. If however they were used in a dry land with few lakes, rivers or other terrain based obstructions the Mouse is probably the most dangerous single tank to have ever existed during WW2 because of its thick armor, massive gun, and almost comical speed.

it wouldn't have lasted a day during any battle against either side.

The US/UK/Canada would have arty/air supported it to death, while the Russians would have beaten it up until the vehicle was unable to move or fire, then position a Br-4 in front of it and fire it until the crew died.

[The Akasha Colony]

Random thought: Viability of a liquid cooled machine gun for use in remote weapon stations/turrets?

I know liquid cooled barrels are completely, and utterly obsolete in infantry, and common tank roles, where they can be quickly, and easily accessed by the crew. But with RWS or crewless turrets, the barrels can no longer be changed easily, and when coax MGs typically have 3 spare barrels to cycle through...you can see where my thought process is going.

I know some MGs like the Pecheneg use the bolt movement and a finned/shrouded barrel to try and overcome the need to swap barrels, but is it effective enough?

Any thoughts?

Why not use a rotary cannon if cooling is such an issue? Then you have the barrel changed for *every shot*.

Good idea, if not the best execution in my opinion. The way you pose your idea it seems like something out of an RTS (which in itself is a numberwanking game genre (zerg rushing ftw)). What I'd do instead is agree beforehand what a reasonable force for each participant is, then if they want to bring in reinforcements, they have to go through the OP. Don't give 'em a hard cap that lifts each round of posting.

I chose a hard cap to prevent 4 year old accounts with 20 trillion people from being the €%#! Out of newb players with only a few million or billion.

All the rules can be bent after discussion and I'm planning on getting together multiple rule sets both absolutly strict and locked in place to more flexible rules to allow factions to gain more individual power.

I'm also trying to come up with a way to make costs for units based on factbook details so my Centurion IVs that wiegh 300+ tons cost much more than my Beserker IIs that are almost glorified sheet metal on tracks with a big gun. (20mm armor is the thickest plate)

By this logic i should make only 30 Centurion IVs with the same amount of materials it takes to build 100s if the Beserker IIs.

IMO, that gets way too subjective. How can you really tell the relative "value" of a completely fictional vehicle? Especially when it's designed to be operating in completely different doctrines. I would personally have no use for a 300 ton tank in any of my brigades, it would not be useful to me, so why should it have an "absolute" cost?

About the WW2 tank the Maus- explains that 150+ ton tanks are possible and have been done

PS: yes tanks can be VERY heavy and it has been done in WW2 with the Maus or Mouse in English. The Mouse was 150+ tons and still went 35km a hour, only 2 were ever made due to complications with crossing rivers (because no bridge could carry this tank and it was not amphibious) and those 2 were found by the Russians and deemed impractical and useless. If however they were used in a dry land with few lakes, rivers or other terrain based obstructions the Mouse is probably the most dangerous single tank to have ever existed during WW2 because of its thick armor, massive gun, and almost comical speed.

It wouldn't have been. Any decent HESH shell would have still caused tremendous spalling in the interior due to the lack of a spall liner or spaced/composite armor. It wouldn't have been very fearsome at all, but it would have been a huge waste of resources, and was never even remotely reliable. The Russians came to the right conclusions. It was overgunned, underpowered, and not sufficiently protected. Especially not in an era when tactical air power and HEAT warheads were becoming more and more prevalent. A lot of vehicles weren't sufficiently protected, but at the very least those other vehicles could be made in such quantity that the loss of one or two (which was inevitable) wouldn't be a huge blow in terms of materiel.

Notice how despite huge advances in technology, modern tanks on the heavier end of the spectrum are only on par with heavy WWII vehicles (and still well below the Maus, and below the Jagdtiger as well). There is simply no use

[New Oyashima]

What's the fastest way to replenish a carrier's air wing?

[Padnak]

What's the fastest way to replenish a carrier's air wing?

probably depends on where the carrier is, among other things

I'd imagine that simply flying new aircraft onto the aircraft carrier might be pretty fast

[Vancon]

What's the fastest way to replenish a carrier's air wing?

Flying them over would be good, but it may be easier to move them from shore right onto the carrier.

[Mitheldalond]

idk, Maus is good on Pearl River cause it can be used to block the bridge so that subhuman pubbies don't rush to their deaths

Only really works if you start in the south. Coming from the north, they can just drive into the river and bypass the bridge entirely. The opposite is true if you're trying to block the enemy team.

Actually, since they've opened up the middle of the map, that seems to have become the more popular dying grounds than the valley.

Honestly speaking the maus was useless even if it had been used in a situation without those factors. You do not need aircraft or artillery to destroy it. All you have to do is move out of the way. What's it going to do? Chase you? Given its fuel and maintenance needs and the fact the crew needs to sleep chances are marching infantry can outpace it. You can just completely avoid it and let it sit in your rear, unable to move anywhere or do anything and wait until it runs out of fuel, which will happen within a day. That is assuming it can even get to the front lines before the war is over. Seriously, the Russians captured this thing near the end of the war. They fixed it up and got it going on its own power to Moscow for testing. It arrived in May 1946.

Depends on the situation. You can't exactly bypass them when they're defending a city you need to take.

Not that that would make them any less of a bad idea.

What's the fastest way to replenish a carrier's air wing?

By having your Air Force operate F-18s? Or maybe by having mach 3 capable carrier aircraft?

Pretty much anything that involves more "aircraft flying" than "ships sailing" would be good.

[Krazakistan]

If your goal is to stop or delay the enemy, I imagine you'd be able to do it better and more efficiently by using multiple AT gun emplacements, tank destroyers, and infantry hunter-killer teams in lieu of a Maus or two.

[Roski]

If your goal is to stop or delay the enemy, I imagine you'd be able to do it better and more efficiently by using multiple AT gun emplacements, tank destroyers, and infantry hunter-killer teams in lieu of a Maus or two.

or you...

idk

let it "not" drive on its own...

[Atomic Utopia]

I was reading the Reactor Shielding Design Manual, First Edition for fun (and in an attempt to learn about shielding) and I have found that it seems that you would need only about a meter of alternating layers of steel (assuming characteristics similar to iron) and polyethylene (any hydrogen rich material will do).

Unfortunately the book is over half a century old and all the SLRF had on reactor shielding design so I would like confirmation on this as it could mean the revival of my nuclear powered tank concept.

Yes I know it is stupid for a myriad of reasons, but some things are of such insane and absurd proportions they absolutely must be done if only to "check the box" as the popular phrase goes.

[The Akasha Colony]

I was reading the Reactor Shielding Design Manual, First Edition for fun (and in an attempt to learn about shielding) and I have found that it seems that you would need only about a meter of alternating layers of steel (assuming characteristics similar to iron) and polyethylene (any hydrogen rich material will do).

Unfortunately the book is over half a century old and all the SLRF had on reactor shielding design so I would like confirmation on this as it could mean the revival of my nuclear powered tank concept.

Yes I know it is stupid for a myriad of reasons, but some things are of such insane and absurd proportions they absolutely must be done if only to "check the box" as the popular phrase goes.

A meter is a lot of space for a tank. That's thicker than the Abrams' frontal turret armor, so it's no small quantity of protection. The total internal volume of a tank ranges from 12 m³ for small tanks like the T-55 to 18.4 m³ for very roomy tanks like the M60.

[Gawdzendia]

I was reading the Reactor Shielding Design Manual, First Edition for fun (and in an attempt to learn about shielding) and I have found that it seems that you would need only about a meter of alternating layers of steel (assuming characteristics similar to iron) and polyethylene (any hydrogen rich material will do).

Unfortunately the book is over half a century old and all the SLRF had on reactor shielding design so I would like confirmation on this as it could mean the revival of my nuclear powered tank concept.

Yes I know it is stupid for a myriad of reasons, but some things are of such insane and absurd proportions they absolutely must be done if only to "check the box" as the popular phrase goes.

A meter is a lot of space for a tank. That's thicker than the Abrams' frontal turret armor, so it's no small quantity of protection. The total internal volume of a tank ranges from 12 m³ for small tanks like the T-55 to 18.4 m³ for very roomy tanks like the M60.

...so what would you call a tank with 9.7m³ remaining after crew, munitions, amenities, and other things were accounted for?
Please say something along the lines of 'absurdly spacious'.

[Roski]

A meter is a lot of space for a tank. That's thicker than the Abrams' frontal turret armor, so it's no small quantity of protection. The total internal volume of a tank ranges from 12 m³ for small tanks like the T-55 to 18.4 m³ for very roomy tanks like the M60.

...so what would you call a tank with 9.7m³ remaining after crew, munitions, amenities, and other things were accounted for?
Please say something along the lines of 'absurdly spacious'.

that's just more room for ammo tbh

[Questers]

Idk mm to cm translation

Erm...