Infantry Discussion Thread 6: True Korea Edition

[The Great Nation of Dan]

What about arrows and slings? I am particularly interested in slings using lead bullets my self as I see Purpelians using those a lot, even up into the Renaissance with musket balls to make up for the slow firing speed of muskets much like what the Japanese did when mixing archers and musketeers.

The sling is a much more powerful weapon than people give it credit for; a slinger of the Balearic Islands of Ancient Greece could kill a man with his weapon at much greater ranges than you might think; despite this, it's still a far less powerful weapon than the musket. IMO, if you want a better speed of firing, then divide your musketeers up so they are not all firing and reloading at the same time.

But that's getting outside my specialty.

Slings from my experience are lovely weapons and best used in mixed formations. However on their own their power as a solo formation is fairly weak. Despite being able to easily out-range most bows (under a 120 lbs. 24 in. draw) and being effective against most soft armor and shields, they usually lack proper cohesion and actual intimidation that would cause a falling of ranks of the enemy. This may be fixed with strict formal training and/or using them in mixed roles/formations.

As for use in musquet formations... maybe. I would agree with it however only in supporting role that doesn't use the lead balls as that would be needed by the rest of the troopies. Picking up bags of stones and rocks would by camp followers and being issued to them as well as a form of quick defense against enemy raiding.

Edit:

[The East Asian Post-Apocalyptic Pact]

Slings from my experience are lovely weapons and best used in mixed formations. However on their own their power as a solo formation is fairly weak. Despite being able to easily out-range most bows (under a 120 lbs. 24 in. draw) and being effective against most soft armor and shields, they usually lack proper cohesion and actual intimidation that would cause a falling of ranks of the enemy. This may be fixed with strict formal training and/or using them in mixed roles/formations.

Edit:

(Image)

Can you sling a grenade? Would a sling-thrown grenade cover more distance than a stick-thrown grenade?

[Assorted Sucrose-Based Lifeforms]

I take it we're about to see a sudden influx of 'Armata's in II RPs.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32478937
IRL, what's the most likely way that Western nations are going to counter them on the ground? More big tanks of their own? Lots of small unmanned ground vehicles with ATGMs?

[Purpelia]

The sling is a much more powerful weapon than people give it credit for; a slinger of the Balearic Islands of Ancient Greece could kill a man with his weapon at much greater ranges than you might think;

And I give it credit for its weight in gold. I have seen demonstrations of what lead shot from a sling can do online. And I like it.

despite this, it's still a far less powerful weapon than the musket. IMO, if you want a better speed of firing, then divide your musketeers up so they are not all firing and reloading at the same time.

I'll try and give you some context here. Back in the time before rifling accuracy and rate of fire were pretty much opposed parameters. To get accuracy out of your musket you had to load it to a precise charge every time and use tighter fitting balls and wadding. This all meant you had to take longer to reload and had a harder time doing so. This was the primary reason why most European powers abandoned marksmanship in favor of mass fire. However this was not done everywhere universally. If you look at for example Japan they relied very much on accurate firing and took pride in marksmanship. An effect of this was though a reduction in rate of fire which meant they had to compensate somehow. And they did this by using mixed formations of archers and musketmen. This strategy seemed to work quite well for them for a long time. And I like it due to the unusual flavor.

Now in Purpelia archery isn't really much of a thing. Yes it's done but you know. On the other hand, due to my love of slings the Purpelian sling is about as iconic as the english longbow. Down to the point that sports slinging is still a favorite sport in Purpelia today and that certain army units hold ceremonial slings on parade.

So it makes sense that if was to use mixed units I'd use slings. And since this is the time of soldiers casting their own lead bullets why not have both musket and sling shot just being cast on the spot from similar molds? Extra points for mostly interchangeable ammo.

I mean, if anything is cheap it's lead right?

[Schwere Panzer Abieltung 502]

The sling is a much more powerful weapon than people give it credit for; a slinger of the Balearic Islands of Ancient Greece could kill a man with his weapon at much greater ranges than you might think;

And I give it credit for its weight in gold. I have seen demonstrations of what lead shot from a sling can do online. And I like it.

despite this, it's still a far less powerful weapon than the musket. IMO, if you want a better speed of firing, then divide your musketeers up so they are not all firing and reloading at the same time.

I'll try and give you some context here. Back in the time before rifling accuracy and rate of fire were pretty much opposed parameters. To get accuracy out of your musket you had to load it to a precise charge every time and use tighter fitting balls and wadding. This all meant you had to take longer to reload and had a harder time doing so. This was the primary reason why most European powers abandoned marksmanship in favor of mass fire. However this was not done everywhere universally. If you look at for example Japan they relied very much on accurate firing and took pride in marksmanship. An effect of this was though a reduction in rate of fire which meant they had to compensate somehow. And they did this by using mixed formations of archers and musketmen. This strategy seemed to work quite well for them for a long time. And I like it due to the unusual flavor.

Now in Purpelia archery isn't really much of a thing. Yes it's done but you know. On the other hand, due to my love of slings the Purpelian sling is about as iconic as the english longbow. Down to the point that sports slinging is still a favorite sport in Purpelia today and that certain army units hold ceremonial slings on parade.

So it makes sense that if was to use mixed units I'd use slings. And since this is the time of soldiers casting their own lead bullets why not have both musket and sling shot just being cast on the spot from similar molds? Extra points for mostly interchangeable ammo.

I mean, if anything is cheap it's lead right?

Well, if that's what you want. You're not wrong anywhere - musket balls and sling balls are basically the same. And the sling is a very easy and cheap weapon to make, though it requires practice. Your soldiers may not be able to splinter wood planks at 100 meters but it could certainly make life hell for opposing musket formations.

[Fordorsia]

And I give it credit for its weight in gold. I have seen demonstrations of what lead shot from a sling can do online. And I like it.


I'll try and give you some context here. Back in the time before rifling accuracy and rate of fire were pretty much opposed parameters. To get accuracy out of your musket you had to load it to a precise charge every time and use tighter fitting balls and wadding. This all meant you had to take longer to reload and had a harder time doing so. This was the primary reason why most European powers abandoned marksmanship in favor of mass fire. However this was not done everywhere universally. If you look at for example Japan they relied very much on accurate firing and took pride in marksmanship. An effect of this was though a reduction in rate of fire which meant they had to compensate somehow. And they did this by using mixed formations of archers and musketmen. This strategy seemed to work quite well for them for a long time. And I like it due to the unusual flavor.

Now in Purpelia archery isn't really much of a thing. Yes it's done but you know. On the other hand, due to my love of slings the Purpelian sling is about as iconic as the english longbow. Down to the point that sports slinging is still a favorite sport in Purpelia today and that certain army units hold ceremonial slings on parade.

So it makes sense that if was to use mixed units I'd use slings. And since this is the time of soldiers casting their own lead bullets why not have both musket and sling shot just being cast on the spot from similar molds? Extra points for mostly interchangeable ammo.

I mean, if anything is cheap it's lead right?

Well, if that's what you want. You're not wrong anywhere - musket balls and sling balls are basically the same. And the sling is a very easy and cheap weapon to make, though it requires practice. Your soldiers may not be able to splinter wood planks at 100 meters but it could certainly make life hell for opposing musket formations.

Musket and sling bullets aren't the same. How many muskets do you know of that shoot biconical bullets made of stone or clay?

Slings from my experience are lovely weapons and best used in mixed formations. However on their own their power as a solo formation is fairly weak. Despite being able to easily out-range most bows (under a 120 lbs. 24 in. draw) and being effective against most soft armor and shields, they usually lack proper cohesion and actual intimidation that would cause a falling of ranks of the enemy. This may be fixed with strict formal training and/or using them in mixed roles/formations.

Edit:

(Image)

Can you sling a grenade? Would a sling-thrown grenade cover more distance than a stick-thrown grenade?

You could, but it would be impractical and require a lot of practice.

[Purpelia]

Musket and sling bullets aren't the same. How many muskets do you know of that shoot biconical bullets made of stone or clay?

Many less than the number of slings I know that used round or acorn shaped balls of lead.
A point on sling stones and bullets.

Sure, the sling bullets are smaller than musket and arquebus balls. But lead is lead. All you need to do is make sure different troops are smart enough to cast the bars you issue out to different sized pellets.

You could, but it would be impractical and require a lot of practice.

I don't think slinging a grenade is a very good idea at all. You expose your self far too much doing so.

[Sevvania]

I don't think slinging a grenade is a very good idea at all. You expose your self far too much doing so.

Grenade crossbow best solution:

Also effective against flying werewolves.

[Fordorsia]

Musket and sling bullets aren't the same. How many muskets do you know of that shoot biconical bullets made of stone or clay?

Many less than the number of slings I know that used round or acorn shaped balls of lead.
A point on sling stones and bullets.

Sure, the sling bullets are smaller than musket and arquebus balls. But lead is lead. All you need to do is make sure different troops are smart enough to cast the bars you issue out to different sized pellets.

You could, but it would be impractical and require a lot of practice.

I don't think slinging a grenade is a very good idea at all. You expose your self far too much doing so.

Biconical bullets were far more popular and superior than rounded stones. They were lighter (not too light), smaller and far more accurate. Then again you may agree with that and I'm simply not understanding what you mean by "Many less than the number of slings".

And yeah the grenade would also have to be much smaller otherwise you might as well just throw it. It would also have to be free of things that would get stuck on the sling when you try launch it like the pin and lever, which could result in not fun times. You could make the excuse for being in a trench, but you still need a decent amount of room and a slingshot or actual launcher would be much better.

[Rhoderberg]

IRL, what's the most likely way that Western nations are going to counter them on the ground? More big tanks of their own? Lots of small unmanned ground vehicles with ATGMs?

M1A3

: ^ )

In all seriousness, given that the rouble has collapsed, I'd be surprised if Russia can afford any meaningful number of Armatas.

[Purpelia]

Biconical bullets were far more popular and superior than rounded stones. They were lighter (not too light), smaller and far more accurate. Then again you may agree with that and I'm simply not understanding what you mean by "Many less than the number of slings".

My statment translates as follows:

You: How many muskets do you know of that shoot biconical bullets made of stone or clay?
Me: Not many. But I know that for a huge part of history all around the world, including the entirety of the Roman war machine people used lead sling bullets.

[Fordorsia]

Biconical bullets were far more popular and superior than rounded stones. They were lighter (not too light), smaller and far more accurate. Then again you may agree with that and I'm simply not understanding what you mean by "Many less than the number of slings".

My statment translates as follows:

You: How many muskets do you know of that shoot biconical bullets made of stone or clay?
Me: Not many. But I know that for a huge part of history all around the world, including the entirety of the Roman war machine people used lead sling bullets.

Oh sure, but I'm having a hard time believing that people took the time to create spherical casts for inferior bullets when they could take the same time to make a biconical cast or just poke the ground for superior bullets. Most bullets found are biconical, so going off that, musket and sling bullets are not the same.

Also, getting hit in the head with a sling seems way less appealing that being stabbed for some reason.

[Purpelia]

Oh sure, but I'm having a hard time believing that people took the time to create spherical casts for inferior bullets when they could take the same time to make a biconical cast or just poke the ground for superior bullets. Most bullets found are biconical, so going off that, musket and sling bullets are not the same.

You make it sound as if I am going to be issuing cast bullets from some sort of standard armoury. That's the only situation under which any of your objections make sense. And I find that a highly unlikely prospect. The only thing these soldiers would get in terms of ammo are bars of lead that they than have to them self cast into what ever shape and size they feel like is appropriate. And the ammo commonality is thus a commonality of solid rectangular led bars.

I think that's where we missed one another.

Also, getting hit in the head with a sling seems way less appealing that being stabbed for some reason.

You can't stab the guy with the sling back.

[Fordorsia]

You make it sound as if I am going to be issuing cast bullets from some sort of standard armoury. That's the only situation under which any of your objections make sense. And I find that a highly unlikely prospect. The only thing these soldiers would get in terms of ammo are bars of lead that they than have to them self cast into what ever shape and size they feel like is appropriate. And the ammo commonality is thus a commonality of solid rectangular led bars.

I think that's where we missed one another.

Maybe it's because he simply said musket balls and sling bullets are the same, then I got thrown off when it went deeper or whatever.

You can't stab the guy with the sling back.

You can if you go get the fucker.

[Purpelia]

You can if you go get the fucker.

Not really. Even if you do manage to catch up with him the guy can easily carry a shield and sword on the side and NOT be hindered by a head wound that should have put you down for good.

[Fordorsia]

You can if you go get the fucker.

Not really. Even if you do manage to catch up with him the guy can easily carry a shield and sword on the side and NOT be hindered by a head wound that should have put you down for good.

Never make movies pls

Also I'm doubting most hits would have been on the head, even if slingers could get very accurate. That makes me curious as to what damage a sling bullet could do if it hits someone in the chest, neck or knee etc.

Light the Puz signal!

[Purpelia]

Never make movies pls

Why not? Would you not like them? Would you not want to see a Purpelianized rendition of ancient times?

Also I'm doubting most hits would have been on the head, even if slingers could get very accurate.

It was you who specified a head shot. I just went with it.

[The East Asian Post-Apocalyptic Pact]

You could, but it would be impractical and require a lot of practice.

I don't think slinging a grenade is a very good idea at all. You expose your self far too much doing so.

How would it expose one too far? If the sling was used from a distance as intended, would it really make much of a difference?

I don't think slinging a grenade is a very good idea at all. You expose your self far too much doing so.

Grenade crossbow best solution:

Also effective against flying werewolves.

Great idea, but a it's a built bulky. However, I should always keep an eye out for flying werewolves. The mysterious nuclear wastelands are always notwithout the accursed avian canine.

[Purpelia]

How would it expose one too far? If the sling was used from a distance as intended, would it really make much of a difference?

Sling projectiles are much smaller than a hand grenade and weigh less. This means that with a grenade you'd have less range. Combine that with the fact that you can't sling over your shoulder or peeking behind cover. Doing this with a sling is a tad difficult.

[The East Asian Post-Apocalyptic Pact]

You can't stab the guy with the sling back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh64c3vkRrA

[The East Asian Post-Apocalyptic Pact]

Sling projectiles are much smaller than a hand grenade and weigh less. This means that with a grenade you'd have less range. Combine that with the fact that you can't sling over your shoulder or peeking behind cover. Doing this with a sling is a tad difficult.
(Image)

I see. I guess I'll be sticking to stick grenades.

[Fordorsia]

Never make movies pls

Why not? Would you not like them? Would you not want to see a Purpelianized rendition of ancient times?

I'd be thrilled to see a properly historic and realistic film like that. Problem with that is, 99.99% of the film would be sitting around in camp making food and gambling.

Also I'm doubting most hits would have been on the head, even if slingers could get very accurate.

It was you who specified a head shot. I just went with it.

That I did. Shit.

I don't think slinging a grenade is a very good idea at all. You expose your self far too much doing so.

How would it expose one too far? If the sling was used from a distance as intended, would it really make much of a difference?

Guns shoot further than slings.

[Laiten]

Why do you even need slings ? Just make every soldier train in shot put and your set.

[The East Asian Post-Apocalyptic Pact]

Guns shoot further than slings.

That is true. I was rambling about grenade delivery, but it seems ineffective though.

[The Great Nation of Dan]

Guns shoot further than slings.

That is true. I was rambling about grenade delivery, but it seems ineffective though.

Okay slinging from the ground is doable and you can also sling a object around corners pretty easily. Infact with a bout 20min. of practicalice I've made my sling wrap onto a corner and fly across the other side.

When using a sling to throw 1 poundish object my experience is it will go 90 paces with a 1.5 foot long sling. According to wikipedia the average soldier throws around 60-70ish feet. My experience with prone is it's hard but you'll still get around 30-60 paces worth of distance.

I issue 3 foot long slings as part of the unifrom as it is traditional weapon worn around the upper left arm. You'll always need extra room and time I'll admit that. But you can still sling from a trench.