NS Military Realism Mk. 7: NO

[Aelarus]

In a weird alternate world, the Soviets could have gone with nothing but Ka-50/52s.

However Ka-50/52 is super fucking expensive in terms of attack helicopters, so no, it would have still supplemented its role alongside the Mi-28, however the Russians would have allot more of them.

Hmm, the Vikhrs outperforms the Ataka (though admittedly, the Alligator can carry both) and is rumored to be cheaper from what I can tell. The Ka-50 definitely has a lot going for it.

Despite this, the Mi-28 also has its features (operational range, survivability, etc). What's more, the main advantage of a fixed gun (added payload capacity) isn't even relevant (Mi-28 can lift more).

The Soviets were definitely going to use the Ka-50 at least for a while, but long term, the Mi-28 might of become more prevalent IMO.

[San-Silvacian]

The Ka-50/52 also had a smaller profile, a much better electronics suite, etc.

It really is a good example of Russian "If we are going to make it specialize in something, we are going to try and make it a damn good thing"

[Yukonastan]

On Kamov Hokum-B/Black Shark-

A shootdown at altitude is even surviveable for the crew, due to functioning heli ejection seats.

But dat side-by-side pit on the Ka-52 doe.

[Spirit of Hope]

1) A trench isn't moving at 600+ km/h, a difference of 5% in their speed vs. calculated speed can lead to missing by 40+ meters (this is assuming a 5 second flight time). That isn't taking into account differences in range, altitude, temperature wind speed, etc. There is a very good reason why everyone who can afford it dropped big guns and took up missiles for AA missions.
2) That is like saying a M-16 and am M-60 are comparable, they both suppress infantry. A 23mm gun is designed to work in the short range area where missiles do not have time to acquire a target and engage. A 160mm gun is designed to engage high flying targets, the exact job of air defense missiles.

1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_5_15 ... ectiveness 30 meter radius of rupture. But my shell is 20% larger in three dimensions. And modern shells have larger HE fillings and more modern HE. So maybe a 25% increase in radius of rupture. So maybe 37 meters radius. Pretty close to 40 meters. And there actually is a large amount of technology devoted to this accuracy problem. Given the accuracy of modern tank guns and their engagement distances, one could design fire control systems that also track the performance of projectiles and adjust for trajectory deviations due to propellant, temperature, and so forth.

Edit: for long ranges, missiles are used, medium ranges, 16 cm guns, and short ranges, 2.1 cm guns.

http://ed-thelen.org/pre_nike.html : "Since the shell is traveling about 1/2 mile per second, trying to get the shell to explode within say 30 feet of the airplane requires the shell to explode plus or minus 0.015 seconds of optimum. If the plane is at 20,000 feet, the flight time is about 9 seconds. The percent error in the time must be less than 0.15 percent, an interesting challenge of fuse timer design and construction if nothing else.

First I think we need to determine the range at which we are arguing over. To me a gun of 20mm-75mm would be reaching out to 10km, at which point it is a missile only affair. What are you saying is "short", "medium" and "long" ranges.

Second, you are falling outside your optimum range with only one form of error, out of a multitude of possible errors, and not counting enemy evasive maneuvers. Yes you can get better and better FCS but they are never going to eliminate the error from "unknowables" while also having to factor in enemy actions, which with multi second flight times and speeds of 600+km/h is going to all add up.

Third your own source even points out that losses do to guns was usually only around 5%. For WWII bombers. While your FCS may have improved the speed, altitude, and response ability of the enemy aircraft has increased more.

Fourth any 160mm system will take away from other systems that have a much better chance of engaging aircraft.

[Puzikas]

I've got a nagging question we've been trying to solve.

If the Soviet Union continued for longer, would they have gone with the Ka-50 or the Mi-28?

For those of you without context, they favored the Ka-50, but currently, the Russians are leaning away from it due to the single pilot (among other things, I'd like to think it's because of the fixed gun, but judging from the Gsh-30-2, they seem rather partial to big fixed guns).

In a weird alternate world, the Soviets could have gone with nothing but Ka-50/52s.

However Ka-50/52 is super fucking expensive in terms of attack helicopters, so no, it would have still supplemented its role alongside the Mi-28, however the Russians would have allot more of them.

The Hokums current procurment price is about $24 million USD as of FY 2013.

The AH-64E is $35.5 million per unit FY 2014, the Eurocopter Tiger HAP is 36.62m USD per unit FY 2013.

New AH-1s are like $20-25 million IIRC.

The KA-50/52 really isnt that expensive as far as attack helicopers go. Compared to the Havoc and its $17 million or the MI-24VP and its ~12-15 million, it a lot.

[San-Silvacian]

In a weird alternate world, the Soviets could have gone with nothing but Ka-50/52s.

However Ka-50/52 is super fucking expensive in terms of attack helicopters, so no, it would have still supplemented its role alongside the Mi-28, however the Russians would have allot more of them.

The Hokums current procurment price is about $24 million USD as of FY 2013.

The AH-64E is $35.5 million per unit FY 2014, the Eurocopter Tiger HAP is 36.62m USD per unit FY 2013.

New AH-1s are like $20-25 million IIRC.

The KA-50/52 really isnt that expensive as far as attack helicopers go. Compared to the Havoc and its $17 million or the MI-24VP and its ~12-15 million, it a lot.

i was legit to lazy go google.

[Atomic Utopia]

I have been working on a fleet of early post modern tech spacecraft since monday of this week, and I would like some advice on the design of the existing ship (I am sorry if the drawing is bad as it was done in paint).

Questions include the possible removal of the existing CIWS and the addition of a non bomb pumped laser system. I would also like feedback on crew size and how that could be improved for better operation.

The goal of the system is to provide defense against my nations neighbor (which is also my puppet), and their extensive space based forces, and to ensure defense against incoming ballistic missiles in the event of war.

Overview
The Fermi Class ASDC is a third generation external pulsed plasma propulsion spacecraft, designed by ADVANCE-ARD. The first unit is to be finished finished on december the third 2018 and launched on june the fifth 2019. Each unit costs nine hundred million NSD and a total of fifty units are planned. The spacecraft was designed to close the so called spaceship gap between the Grock Coalition and the South Grock Sea-Antarctic Alliance, which has long been considered a threat to Coalition space superiority over the South Grock Sea-Antarctic Alliance.




Technical Details

Type: Nuclear Weapons Platform/Space Warship
Weapons:
96 Pluto III missiles,
56 mk-2 bomb pumped xasers bomb units
620 mk-2 bomb pumped xaser xasing rods
42 mk-5 anti spacecraft missiles
2 mk-8 40mm “Zippy” CIWS
Fuel/Propellant:
900 1kt devices
1500 6kt devices
100 metric tons liquid hydrogen NTR propellant
Delta-V: 95000 m/s
Food Supplies:
5000 kg of food
600 kg water
Armor:
2 3x1mm deployable wipple shields
50 mm armor
Sensors:
mk-5 missile early warning high power phased radar array
mk-1 infrared detection unit
Electricity Source:
one mk-12 2mW space fission power reactor for primary power supply
ten Type 3 500 W Radioisotope Generators for secondary power

Dimensions:

Width: 56 meteres
Length: 168 meteres

Dry mass: 9,500 metric tons
Wet mass: 25,000 metric tons

Crew:
Number of Personnel: 62
Enlisted: 50
Officer: 12
4 Cooking Specialists (enlisted)
16 General System Engineers (enlisted)
12 Detection system specialists (enlisted)
5 Healthcare Specialists (enlisted)
4 Sanitation Specialists (enlisted)
10 Electronic Warfare Specialists (enlisted)
3 Navigators (officer)
3 Nuclear Engineers (officer)
3 Weapons Systems Control Officers
2 Electronic Warfare and Detection System Officers
1 Captain (officer)

Cost of program:
28 billion spent on development
900 million per unit
Total program cost 73 Billion NSD

[Yukonastan]

I have been working on a fleet of early post modern tech spacecraft since monday of this week, and I would like some advice on the design of the existing ship (I am sorry if the drawing is bad as it was done in paint).

Questions include the possible removal of the existing CIWS and the addition of a non bomb pumped laser system. I would also like feedback on crew size and how that could be improved for better operation.

The goal of the system is to provide defense against my nations neighbor (which is also my puppet), and their extensive space based forces, and to ensure defense against incoming ballistic missiles in the event of war.

Overview
The Fermi Class ASDC is a third generation external pulsed plasma propulsion spacecraft, designed by ADVANCE-ARD. The first unit is to be finished finished on december the third 2018 and launched on june the fifth 2019. Each unit costs nine hundred million NSD and a total of fifty units are planned. The spacecraft was designed to close the so called spaceship gap between the Grock Coalition and the South Grock Sea-Antarctic Alliance, which has long been considered a threat to Coalition space superiority over the South Grock Sea-Antarctic Alliance.


(Image)

Technical Details

Type: Nuclear Weapons Platform/Space Warship
Weapons:
96 Pluto III missiles,
56 mk-2 bomb pumped xasers bomb units
620 mk-2 bomb pumped xaser xasing rods
42 mk-5 anti spacecraft missiles
2 mk-8 40mm “Zippy” CIWS
Fuel/Propellant:
900 1kt devices
1500 6kt devices
100 metric tons liquid hydrogen NTR propellant
Delta-V: 95000 m/s
Food Supplies:
5000 kg of food
600 kg water
Armor:
2 3x1mm deployable wipple shields
50 mm armor
Sensors:
mk-5 missile early warning high power phased radar array
mk-1 infrared detection unit
Electricity Source:
one mk-12 2mW space fission power reactor for primary power supply
ten Type 3 500 W Radioisotope Generators for secondary power

Dimensions:

Width: 56 meteres
Length: 168 meteres

Dry mass: 9,500 metric tons
Wet mass: 25,000 metric tons

Crew:
Number of Personnel: 62
Enlisted: 50
Officer: 12
4 Cooking Specialists (enlisted)
16 General System Engineers (enlisted)
12 Detection system specialists (enlisted)
5 Healthcare Specialists (enlisted)
4 Sanitation Specialists (enlisted)
10 Electronic Warfare Specialists (enlisted)
3 Navigators (officer)
3 Nuclear Engineers (officer)
3 Weapons Systems Control Officers
2 Electronic Warfare and Detection System Officers
1 Captain (officer)

Cost of program:
28 billion spent on development
900 million per unit
Total program cost 73 Billion NSD

Image needs more defining lines, but all-in-all, good for "lineart". The stats are sort of wat, but I know next to nothing about rockets other than that gravity turns with the planet's orbital spin allow for faster orbital insertion with less fuel wasted.

Kudos on you for using nuclear pulsed propulsion, however.

[The Corparation]

1) Dutch the RTGs, with a sizable nuclear reactor you have no need for them. Also, seeing as you have propeelant for an NTR for what I assume is an attitude control system, I'd look into making the reactor for that pull double duty. Every gram counts and the ability to use that reactor to generate power will save a bunch.
2) Cut back on crew. 62 people is probably much more than you need, and those extra crew will seriously cut into your endurance.
3) What is a "3x1mm deployable wipple shields" Why not have a Whipple shield over the whole hull?
4)I'd keep the CIWS for now.
5) I'd work on the lineart a bit. Maybe include a scale bar and switch to a white background. Also if those are windows at the top, consider cutting back or eliminating them.
It's late so I don't have time to run the math to see how well your listed pulse units, Delta-V and Mass add up. Same goes for stated supplies and the number of crew.

and lastly
here are a few references you may or may not already have:
Atomic Rockets, which amounts to a bible of spaceship design.
Here's a nice handy declassifed General Atomic report on project Orion
My design if you want to use it as a refrence.

[Gallia-]

I have been working on a fleet of early post modern tech spacecraft since monday of this week, and I would like some advice on the design of the existing ship (I am sorry if the drawing is bad as it was done in paint).

Questions include the possible removal of the existing CIWS and the addition of a non bomb pumped laser system. I would also like feedback on crew size and how that could be improved for better operation.

The goal of the system is to provide defense against my nations neighbor (which is also my puppet), and their extensive space based forces, and to ensure defense against incoming ballistic missiles in the event of war.

Overview
The Fermi Class ASDC is a third generation external pulsed plasma propulsion spacecraft, designed by ADVANCE-ARD. The first unit is to be finished finished on december the third 2018 and launched on june the fifth 2019. Each unit costs nine hundred million NSD and a total of fifty units are planned. The spacecraft was designed to close the so called spaceship gap between the Grock Coalition and the South Grock Sea-Antarctic Alliance, which has long been considered a threat to Coalition space superiority over the South Grock Sea-Antarctic Alliance.


(Image)

Technical Details

Type: Nuclear Weapons Platform/Space Warship
Weapons:
96 Pluto III missiles,
56 mk-2 bomb pumped xasers bomb units
620 mk-2 bomb pumped xaser xasing rods
42 mk-5 anti spacecraft missiles
2 mk-8 40mm “Zippy” CIWS
Fuel/Propellant:
900 1kt devices
1500 6kt devices
100 metric tons liquid hydrogen NTR propellant
Delta-V: 95000 m/s
Food Supplies:
5000 kg of food
600 kg water
Armor:
2 3x1mm deployable wipple shields
50 mm armor
Sensors:
mk-5 missile early warning high power phased radar array
mk-1 infrared detection unit
Electricity Source:
one mk-12 2mW space fission power reactor for primary power supply
ten Type 3 500 W Radioisotope Generators for secondary power

Dimensions:

Width: 56 meteres
Length: 168 meteres

Dry mass: 9,500 metric tons
Wet mass: 25,000 metric tons

Crew:
Number of Personnel: 62
Enlisted: 50
Officer: 12
4 Cooking Specialists (enlisted)
16 General System Engineers (enlisted)
12 Detection system specialists (enlisted)
5 Healthcare Specialists (enlisted)
4 Sanitation Specialists (enlisted)
10 Electronic Warfare Specialists (enlisted)
3 Navigators (officer)
3 Nuclear Engineers (officer)
3 Weapons Systems Control Officers
2 Electronic Warfare and Detection System Officers
1 Captain (officer)

Cost of program:
28 billion spent on development
900 million per unit
Total program cost 73 Billion NSD

I feel like the crew needs a doctor or surgeon as an officer? I don't know why, that just seems like something ships would have.

Everything else looks pretty good.

[Atomic Utopia]

1) Dutch the RTGs, with a sizable nuclear reactor you have no need for them. Also, seeing as you have propeelant for an NTR for what I assume is an attitude control system, I'd look into making the reactor for that pull double duty. Every gram counts and the ability to use that reactor to generate power will save a bunch.
2) Cut back on crew. 62 people is probably much more than you need, and those extra crew will seriously cut into your endurance.
3) What is a "3x1mm deployable wipple shields" Why not have a Whipple shield over the whole hull?
4)I'd keep the CIWS for now.
5) I'd work on the lineart a bit. Maybe include a scale bar and switch to a white background. Also if those are windows at the top, consider cutting back or eliminating them.
It's late so I don't have time to run the math to see how well your listed pulse units, Delta-V and Mass add up. Same goes for stated supplies and the number of crew.

and lastly
here are a few references you may or may not already have:
Atomic Rockets, which amounts to a bible of spaceship design.
Here's a nice handy declassifed General Atomic report on project Orion
My design if you want to use it as a refrence.

Wow, that was fast.
Yes, those are windows, I think I will remove them, however they look quite good compared to non detailed metal, I might add more missile tubes and other detail to balance it out.
The deployable wipple shield is basically a large thin sheet of metal with RCS thrusters designed to move in the way of incoming projectiles, now that I think of it I might dich it for using the pulse units to dodge any non controlled projectiles.
And for the reactor the reason I added the RTGs is that they would allow me to refuel the reactor without the ship having to be attached to an external power supply. They also allow the reactor to be taken offline at any time, wether it is a forced outage, or a planned outage to maintain the reactor.
The idea with the crew is that I would have extra redundancy. And those rocket things you see on the side are NTRs for fine maneuvering.
Yes, I have seen the Atomic Rockets website, that and the book on project orion inspired me to create this. The declassified report however I do not think I have seen.

edit I have updated the design a bit, you can see it in my factbook from the link in my signature about A-bomb propelled spacecraft.

[Rich and Corporations]

First I think we need to determine the range at which we are arguing over. To me a gun of 20mm-75mm would be reaching out to 10km, at which point it is a missile only affair. What are you saying is "short", "medium" and "long" ranges.

short is 3 km, medium is 3.1 km to 10 km, and long is 11 km to 500 km.

and not counting enemy evasive maneuvers

Evasive maneuvers reduce the ability to acquire targets. Even near-misses will force a mission abort. And a barrage of shells could damage an enemy aircraft. Furthermore, there is a psychological effect at play, seeing a large 40 meter explosion near you would rattle you.

Finally IR missiles were once deadly to aircraft because there's no warning system for IR missiles initially, the radar lock alert is crucial for pilots to start evasive manuevers. A shell is harder to detect than IR missiles, and can only be detected through a pulse doppler MAW.

speed, altitude, and response ability of the enemy aircraft has increased more.

Not really. Radar SAM force aircraft to fly low, and a good AA network will disrupt enemy ability to use air power.


Or look at it another way, I have a gun which has commonality with my artillery, and allows for massed fires against aircraft. Each shell is cheap, while missiles are expensive.

The point of war isn't to kill the enemy, it's to degrade his operations and deny territory.

Third your own source even points out that losses do to guns was usually only around 5%. For WWII bombers.

5% is pretty bad.

Although I must note that the bombing of Ploesti was ineffective due to heavy AAA placements.

[Shuggy555]

I have been working on a fleet of early post modern tech spacecraft since monday of this week, and I would like some advice on the design of the existing ship (I am sorry if the drawing is bad as it was done in paint).

Questions include the possible removal of the existing CIWS and the addition of a non bomb pumped laser system. I would also like feedback on crew size and how that could be improved for better operation.

The goal of the system is to provide defense against my nations neighbor (which is also my puppet), and their extensive space based forces, and to ensure defense against incoming ballistic missiles in the event of war.

Overview
The Fermi Class ASDC is a third generation external pulsed plasma propulsion spacecraft, designed by ADVANCE-ARD. The first unit is to be finished finished on december the third 2018 and launched on june the fifth 2019. Each unit costs nine hundred million NSD and a total of fifty units are planned. The spacecraft was designed to close the so called spaceship gap between the Grock Coalition and the South Grock Sea-Antarctic Alliance, which has long been considered a threat to Coalition space superiority over the South Grock Sea-Antarctic Alliance.


(Image)

Technical Details

Type: Nuclear Weapons Platform/Space Warship
Weapons:
96 Pluto III missiles,
56 mk-2 bomb pumped xasers bomb units
620 mk-2 bomb pumped xaser xasing rods
42 mk-5 anti spacecraft missiles
2 mk-8 40mm “Zippy” CIWS
Fuel/Propellant:
900 1kt devices
1500 6kt devices
100 metric tons liquid hydrogen NTR propellant
Delta-V: 95000 m/s
Food Supplies:
5000 kg of food
600 kg water
Armor:
2 3x1mm deployable wipple shields
50 mm armor
Sensors:
mk-5 missile early warning high power phased radar array
mk-1 infrared detection unit
Electricity Source:
one mk-12 2mW space fission power reactor for primary power supply
ten Type 3 500 W Radioisotope Generators for secondary power

Dimensions:

Width: 56 meteres
Length: 168 meteres

Dry mass: 9,500 metric tons
Wet mass: 25,000 metric tons

Crew:
Number of Personnel: 62
Enlisted: 50
Officer: 12
4 Cooking Specialists (enlisted)
16 General System Engineers (enlisted)
12 Detection system specialists (enlisted)
5 Healthcare Specialists (enlisted)
4 Sanitation Specialists (enlisted)
10 Electronic Warfare Specialists (enlisted)
3 Navigators (officer)
3 Nuclear Engineers (officer)
3 Weapons Systems Control Officers
2 Electronic Warfare and Detection System Officers
1 Captain (officer)

Cost of program:
28 billion spent on development
900 million per unit
Total program cost 73 Billion NSD

Bravo for choosing an orion derivative!

a few nitpicks, based off 2.3kg/day/person you have enough food for an endurance of 35 days while you have enough water for 100 days. id add more food.

I can't see the image but i hope you have taken into account radiators that will be massive and without them, your crew will be cooked alive. i recommend a droplet based radiator as they are relatively immune to enemy fire.

Your dimensions/ISP/DeltaV are all well within the range of possibility for orions, Id recommend replacing your CIWS with diode based lasers(this will give you better time reaction for interception at much greater range's) and i like the idea of your radiostopic generators for back up power.

Now your shielding, if this orion will be facing other spacecraft that are similarly armed, Id go for a double layered approach where the outer layer will be made up of dense materials that can absorb xrays (such as a dense beryllium alloy) and the inner layer made out of lighter elements such as paraffin wax to stop particle radiation. the Beryllium would also act as a neutron reflector giving you a good all around shielding for any type of ionising radiation.

Also consider the use of small nuclear bombs as chaff/combat movements
If an enemy has his sensors locked on to your ship, if you detonate a non shaped charge nuke off your pusher plate, you will jink out of your position and blind the hell out of the enemies sensors if not directly destroy them outright.

[The Kievan People]

40mm > 160mm AAA

Get with the 21st century already.

[San-Silvacian]

35mm superior AAA caliber

[Azurg]

30mm or bust.

[Purpelia]

40x173mm.

[San-Silvacian]

30mm or bust.

How plebeian.

40x173mm.

Sure whatever you say Purp.

[Post War America]

Guys clearly its 80cm /end sarcasm

[Purpelia]

Sure whatever you say Purp.

The round actually exists. I think it's called Super 40 or something like that. It's basically 30x173 necked up to 40mm.

EDIT: Here is a link. Although apparently it's named 40x180.
http://www.tank-net.com/forums/index.ph ... opic=25792

[San-Silvacian]

Sure whatever you say Purp.

[The Kievan People]

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2012armaments/ ... lliams.pdf

40mm Supershot is kind of gimped.

[Purpelia]

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2012armaments/Tuesday13975williams.pdf

40mm Supershot is kind of gimped.

Well it's not really a good 40mm round if that's what you mean. But it is a good way of getting more HE out of a 30mm sized cartridge. And I imagine that in applications where 30mm was sufficient it would be equally good. So I imagine it would make a decent AA round to replace regular 30x173mm.

[The Kievan People]

Actually, the Super 40 you posted is different.

[The Kievan People]

Immoren's comments on mortars awhile back got me thinking about how make light mortars more lethal without every round a radar proximity fuze. But it turns out the Finns beat me to it!

http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/MORTARS3.htm

Because normal mortar shells of 50-mm mortar were so ineffective, during late Continuation War Finnish military attempted developing SRT-type "bouncing" mortar shell for these mortars. This kind of mortar shell would hit the ground, bounce back up and explode mid-air. At least in theory this explosion in suitable altitude would make the mortar shell much more lethal and this basic design had already proved successful with 81-mm mortar shells. But developing this type of special mortar shell in 50-mm calibre proved more difficult than anticipated. 2nd - 3rd of March 1944 Finnish military tested normal and SRT-type 50-mm mortar shells in winter conditions in Niinisalo test firing centre. In these tests target area had 50-cm (20 inch) of snow. The results indicated that the normal mortar shell exploded inside snow with barely visible results, while the bouncing shells exploded in height of 5 - 10 meters and fragmented well, but due to many shells exploding too high the effect in target was rather poor. It is unknown if SRT-type mortar shells for 50-mm mortars got to mass-production before ending of the war, but this seems unlikely.

With a bit of fine tuning to reduce the height of the final detonation it seems like this would be ideal solution for economically boosting the effectiveness of light mortars. The Russians made it work in 30mm grenades, so...