NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #6

[Lyras]

Partly depends on the Mech's capcity for recoil mitigation, and it's extant ground-pressure... Low velocity HE-lobbers could get pretty big in the bore.

Would Semi work then, but full auto available if really needed?

Also, what about the machine guns and smoke 'nades?

If it's a big-bore recoilless rifle-type thing on a revolver-style mount, there's no reason it couldn't be automatic... but the bigger it is, the greater the volume of ammunition, and the faster you'll run through it.

[Spirit of Hope]

Spirit of Hope: Very large OTH radar capacity (ranged well beyond any existing AWACs) and capacity to use it to vector in other assets to strike. Worth it as fleets get into the thousands-plus.

I would disagree as my fleets get that sized I can send out dozens of AWACS combined with land based aircraft, satellites, picket ships and submarines to get almost as much capability, without losing a lot of money and flexibility. I mean the Longsword sucks up 10 times as much money as the entire US Navy by itself. This is not including the support facilities that would have to be made and how much they would cost. That means from a money sense I could use 110 super carriers to picket my fleet, each with their own large fleet to guard them.

And again their is still the huge problem of support facilities, with I actually don't think I have ever seen you comment on.

[Triplebaconation]

Just dug this up...

For folks that think a Longsword-esque ship is impossible, here's a civilian vessel of similar size (though under-weight, as passenger vessels tend to be) that is theorised.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/engine ... -city1.htm

Also put some very rough calculations through the stuff from this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strength_of_ships and came nowhere near structural failure points. Seaworthiness, at least as far as metal fatigue and load limits of the steel, is fine. Given the size, and its very wide beam, it's probably quite a stable vessel, and likely good for anyone who gets seasick.

Do you mind sharing your math? No offense intended, just curious.

Freedom Ship was to be built of articulated modular sections.

http://freedomship.com/faq/

"4. Misperception: Freedom Ship should be built in a shipyard.

Facts: The only commonality Freedom Ship has with a conventional ship is that it is a sea-going vessel. Designing and building Freedom Ship is not a typical marine engineering project. A conventional hull the dimensions of Freedom Ship would simply break apart. Even if this were not the case, a conventional hull would cost many times as much and would be significantly less safe and stable. Because of its size, Freedom Ship cannot be built in any existing shipyard. Nor would a shipyard have anything to offer. Freedom Ship is basically a flat-bottomed barge with a conventional high-rise built on top."

[Mitheldalond]

To be fair, the same could be said of most things that get hit by RPGs.

Now that Longswords have been brought up, how well do you think a system specifically designed to kill Longswords would sell on GE&T?

And how long after releasing such a system would I have before Lyras turns my nation into a steaming crater?

I'd imagine users of the Longsword are either grossly incompetent in which case even relatively conventional methods and weapons could defeat one, or competent in which case they're plain simply hard to get at since they're supposed to be at the epicenter of inherently large fleets...

Except what inspiration did you draw the SAM with a 1,100km range from?
What existing system can I look to as a reference as a SAM that can reach even near that?

Theoretically you could achieve any range or payload with a sufficiently large missile. A missile with unlimited range is possible, even.

Personally I'd prefer aircraft toting missiles over SAMs for long range engagement of air targets though.

The intention of said system is to fight competent Longsword users, like Lyras.

[Immoren]

Leetle navy.

[Korouse]

So it turns out the Longsword is impractical, but doable?

Give me one, nao.

[Yukonastan]

So it turns out the Longsword is impractical, but doable?

Give me one, nao.

Wrong. Turns out that you can connect a shitton of barges to create a mile of city street at sea.

[Korouse]

So it turns out the Longsword is impractical, but doable?

Give me one, nao.

Wrong. Turns out that you can connect a shitton of barges to create a mile of city street at sea.

Wouldn't that be tricky to build?

[Mitheldalond]

So it turns out the Longsword is impractical, but doable?

Give me one, nao.

Wrong. Turns out that you can connect a shitton of barges to create a mile of city street at sea.

Then mount an OTH radar on it

[Primordial Luxa]

Heys guys still working on my Doctrine.
Just to help me with formatting and content if anyone would be kind enough to post their own doctrines that would be awesome.
Thanks

[Yukonastan]

Wrong. Turns out that you can connect a shitton of barges to create a mile of city street at sea.

Then mount an OTH radar on it

Duga-3? With ionosphere reference?

SOMEONE GET ON THIS NOW WE HAVE A GREAT DEVELOPMENT FOR NS

[The Soodean Imperium]

So it turns out the Longsword is impractical, but doable?

Give me one, nao.

See, this is why I like to think of military proposals in terms of the "Three P's" - Possible, Practical, and Preferable.

The first is for eliminating stupidly impossible ideas that blatantly fly in the face of basic physics. This includes 40-foot-tall 500-ton walkers, tanks that are twice as big and three times as well-armored as the Abrams but weigh only slightly more, and thermobaric bullet propellant.

The second, better defined as "feasible," is for eliminating things that can be done but would require disproportionate levels of effort, or would have massive drawbacks in practice. Railgun-related proposals often fail in this category; railguns are indeed a real thing, but they consume massive amounts of power, require lots of bulky switching equipment, and often mandate extremely frequent barrel changes.

The third is the hardest to discern, even for real-world military decision-makers. Namely, it entails asking "Is there a way I can do this task with something that's cheaper, simpler, or more effective?" For instance, a plane which dives on enemy armor formations to pelt tanks with a 45-mm autocannon loses its attractiveness when one considers the alternative of using precision-guided AT munitions instead.

Under this logic, even if a Longsword is possible (which is still dubious, given that "Freedom Ship" was never built and would have been built in a fundamentally different way), it still involves great questions of practicality, especially as regards supply and maintenance for a vessel that won't fit in any drydock and is crewed by an entire Field Army. And in preferability, it stands on the shakiest ground; a sea-based OTH radar offers excellent range, but let's not forget that for the equivalent cost ($1.2 trillion dollars) one could field not one, not ten, but one hundred Gerald-R-Ford class aircraft carriers. That's a stupidly massive amount of AWACS coverage compared to what you'll get with an OTH radar.

[Korouse]

So it turns out the Longsword is impractical, but doable?

Give me one, nao.

See, this is why I like to think of military proposals in terms of the "Three P's" - Possible, Practical, and Preferable.

The first is for eliminating stupidly impossible ideas that blatantly fly in the face of basic physics. This includes 40-foot-tall 500-ton walkers, tanks that are twice as big and three times as well-armored as the Abrams but weigh only slightly more, and thermobaric bullet propellant.

The second, better defined as "feasible," is for eliminating things that can be done but would require disproportionate levels of effort, or would have massive drawbacks in practice. Railgun-related proposals often fail in this category; railguns are indeed a real thing, but they consume massive amounts of power, require lots of bulky switching equipment, and often mandate extremely frequent barrel changes.

The third is the hardest to discern, even for real-world military decision-makers. Namely, it entails asking "Is there a way I can do this task with something that's cheaper, simpler, or more effective?" For instance, a plane which dives on enemy armor formations to pelt tanks with a 45-mm autocannon loses its attractiveness when one considers the alternative of using precision-guided AT munitions instead.

Under this logic, even if a Longsword is possible (which is still dubious, given that "Freedom Ship" was never built and would have been built in a fundamentally different way), it still involves great questions of practicality, especially as regards supply and maintenance for a vessel that won't fit in any drydock and is crewed by an entire Field Army. And in preferability, it stands on the shakiest ground; a sea-based OTH radar offers excellent range, but let's not forget that for the equivalent cost ($1.2 trillion dollars) one could field not one, not ten, but one hundred Gerald-R-Ford class aircraft carriers. That's a stupidly massive amount of AWACS coverage compared to what you'll get with an OTH radar.

I thought the Longsword was 1.2 billion.

[Korouse]

Is 242 billion dollars in defense a small budget?

[Yukonastan]

Is 242 billion dollars in defense a small budget?

It's relative. What's your GDP?

[The Soodean Imperium]

See, this is why I like to think of military proposals in terms of the "Three P's" - Possible, Practical, and Preferable.

The first is for eliminating stupidly impossible ideas that blatantly fly in the face of basic physics. This includes 40-foot-tall 500-ton walkers, tanks that are twice as big and three times as well-armored as the Abrams but weigh only slightly more, and thermobaric bullet propellant.

The second, better defined as "feasible," is for eliminating things that can be done but would require disproportionate levels of effort, or would have massive drawbacks in practice. Railgun-related proposals often fail in this category; railguns are indeed a real thing, but they consume massive amounts of power, require lots of bulky switching equipment, and often mandate extremely frequent barrel changes.

The third is the hardest to discern, even for real-world military decision-makers. Namely, it entails asking "Is there a way I can do this task with something that's cheaper, simpler, or more effective?" For instance, a plane which dives on enemy armor formations to pelt tanks with a 45-mm autocannon loses its attractiveness when one considers the alternative of using precision-guided AT munitions instead.

Under this logic, even if a Longsword is possible (which is still dubious, given that "Freedom Ship" was never built and would have been built in a fundamentally different way), it still involves great questions of practicality, especially as regards supply and maintenance for a vessel that won't fit in any drydock and is crewed by an entire Field Army. And in preferability, it stands on the shakiest ground; a sea-based OTH radar offers excellent range, but let's not forget that for the equivalent cost ($1.2 trillion dollars) one could field not one, not ten, but one hundred Gerald-R-Ford class aircraft carriers. That's a stupidly massive amount of AWACS coverage compared to what you'll get with an OTH radar.

I thought the Longsword was 1.2 billion.

Lyras refers to it as "1,200 billion NSD," which translates over into 1.2 thousand billion, or 1.2 trillion. Unless, of course, we're using the olde English definition, by which a "billion" is 1,000,000,000,000 and 1,000,000,000 is a "milliard."

To put this in perspective again, the US military could potentially afford a Longsword if it saved up by spending absolutely nothing on new procurement for an entire decade.

[Korouse]

Is 242 billion dollars in defense a small budget?

It's relative. What's your GDP?

1,262,702,234,819

Don't you mean Budget?

[Yukonastan]

It's relative. What's your GDP?

1,262,702,234,819

Don't you mean Budget?

Yeah. Dumb fuck me is confusing gross domestic product for budget,

[Korouse]

1,262,702,234,819

Don't you mean Budget?

Yeah. Dumb fuck me is confusing gross domestic product for budget,

692,352,445,670

My taxes are quite punitive as is, 55% is quite a lot.

[Yukonastan]

Yeah. Dumb fuck me is confusing gross domestic product for budget,

692,352,445,670

My taxes are quite punitive as is, 55% is quite a lot.

692 trn budget, of which 242 trn military amirite?

To me that seems high. It's about 34% of your budget, but I'm not the financial expert around here.

Personally I'd drop the defense budget, to say 24%, or about 166 trn. But that's me.

[Korouse]

692,352,445,670

My taxes are quite punitive as is, 55% is quite a lot.

692 trn budget, of which 242 trn military amirite?

To me that seems high. It's about 34% of your budget, but I'm not the financial expert around here.

Personally I'd drop the defense budget, to say 24%, or about 166 trn. But that's me.

But...

I want a Longsword.

[Korouse]

692 trn budget, of which 242 trn military amirite?

To me that seems high. It's about 34% of your budget, but I'm not the financial expert around here.

Personally I'd drop the defense budget, to say 24%, or about 166 trn. But that's me.

But...

I want a Longsword.

Or several new Mechanized Infantry Divisions.

[Yukonastan]

But...

I want a Longsword.

Or several new Mechanized Infantry Divisions.

I can sell you carbines for the mech. inf, if you go to my storefront. The Longsword is an AShM magnet anyway, and we JUST got you over your battleship navy to begin with. Korva or Anemos can sell you vehicles, I can sell rifles and ammunition, and you can have a few new divisions for fairly cheap.

[Korouse]

Or several new Mechanized Infantry Divisions.

I can sell you carbines for the mech. inf, if you go to my storefront. The Longsword is an AShM magnet anyway, and we JUST got you over your battleship navy to begin with. Korva or Anemos can sell you vehicles, I can sell rifles and ammunition, and you can have a few new divisions for fairly cheap.

I didn't have a battleship navy.

But, I was planning to buy one just to parade it around Padnak when he was crippled.

[Yukonastan]

I can sell you carbines for the mech. inf, if you go to my storefront. The Longsword is an AShM magnet anyway, and we JUST got you over your battleship navy to begin with. Korva or Anemos can sell you vehicles, I can sell rifles and ammunition, and you can have a few new divisions for fairly cheap.

I didn't have a battleship navy.

But, I was planning to buy one just to parade it around Padnak when he was crippled.

Well, you were advised exactly why it was a bad idea, if I remember correctly.

Buy the equipment for those motor rifle divisions, then?