NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #6

[Inyourfaceistan]

He asked if it was a good fighter, and I said it wasn't

In a dogfight between an F-35 and an F-22, my money is on the F-22

As an all around combat aircraft, I don't place as much stock in stealth as most of the people on this thread-

Neither aircraft is designed for dogfighting though. While physical performance is important, the increasing burden is on electronics, both to acquire the target faster and at longer range, as well as to prevent the enemy from doing so for as long as possible. In this regard, the F-35's electronics are better than the F-22's, which should be unsurprising given that the F-35 is a newer aircraft.

I thought that F-22 went 3v3 in terms of "kills" in their trials with the Eurofighter Typhoon in Germany.

[Spirit of Hope]

Neither aircraft is designed for dogfighting though. While physical performance is important, the increasing burden is on electronics, both to acquire the target faster and at longer range, as well as to prevent the enemy from doing so for as long as possible. In this regard, the F-35's electronics are better than the F-22's, which should be unsurprising given that the F-35 is a newer aircraft.

I thought that F-22 went 3v3 in terms of "kills" in their trials with the Eurofighter Typhoon in Germany.

First there is no official score out so far as I know, what we have heard is that it was a tie in the war-games though. However the rules of engagement were set to encourage WVR combat and restrict BVR combat. This is a situation unlikely to occur IRL.

[The Kievan People]

There is an E/A-18G that has killed F-22s in training scenarios, judging by its kill markings.

But scenarios are just that. They tell you something about how the aircraft will perform in specifically defined circumstances, but nothing about the representativeness of the circumstances themselves.

[Roski]

So I'm in a war.

Dude has nearly infinite manpower.

I decide to just blow everything up.

People yell at me for making the most significant progress in the war.

I fight wars to win quickly, not to have thousands of my men die because of some shitty rules of engagement

[Yukonastan]

So I'm in a war.

Dude has nearly infinite manpower.

I decide to just blow everything up.

People yell at me for making the most significant progress in the war.

I fight wars to win quickly, not to have thousands of my men die because of some shitty rules of engagement

The best way to win a war is to never fire a shot in it.
The second best way is to utterly steamroll your opponents.
While we're on the topic of wars, the world's longest "war" was also the least deadly.

The Three Hundred and Thirty Five Years War (1651-1986) was between the Netherlands and the Isles of Scilly (off the south-west coast of the United Kingdom). It is said to have been extended by the lack of a peace treaty for 335 years. It was waged without a single shot fired, making it one of the world's longest wars and the war with the fewest casualties. Despite the uncertain validity of the declaration of war, peace was finally declared in 1986

[Roski]

So I'm in a war.

Dude has nearly infinite manpower.

I decide to just blow everything up.

People yell at me for making the most significant progress in the war.

I fight wars to win quickly, not to have thousands of my men die because of some shitty rules of engagement

The best way to win a war is to never fire a shot in it.
The second best way is to utterly steamroll your opponents.
While we're on the topic of wars, the world's longest "war" was also the least deadly.

The Three Hundred and Thirty Five Years War (1651-1986) was between the Netherlands and the Isles of Scilly (off the south-west coast of the United Kingdom). It is said to have been extended by the lack of a peace treaty for 335 years. It was waged without a single shot fired, making it one of the world's longest wars and the war with the fewest casualties. Despite the uncertain validity of the declaration of war, peace was finally declared in 1986

That's not the same thing

[The Akasha Colony]

Neither aircraft is designed for dogfighting though. While physical performance is important, the increasing burden is on electronics, both to acquire the target faster and at longer range, as well as to prevent the enemy from doing so for as long as possible. In this regard, the F-35's electronics are better than the F-22's, which should be unsurprising given that the F-35 is a newer aircraft.

I thought that F-22 went 3v3 in terms of "kills" in their trials with the Eurofighter Typhoon in Germany.

As has been mentioned, exercises often have very artificial and arbitrary constraints that radically alter the performance of the aircraft and change how the situation would normally be dealt with. Given the sensitivity of modern radar systems and the desire by many governments to keep exact specifications and performance secret, often the most advanced electronics are withheld from use in exercises, even though these systems are key to the aircraft's intended performance.

The F-22 is a maneuverable aircraft and indeed it is very capable of dogfighting. But this isn't the primary intent of its design. The USAF expected that BVR combat would become more important in the future, and it is designed with this in mind.

[Triplebaconation]

"BVR" is just as physically demanding on airframes as dogfighting if not more so.

[Inyourfaceistan]

I thought that F-22 went 3v3 in terms of "kills" in their trials with the Eurofighter Typhoon in Germany.

As has been mentioned, exercises often have very artificial and arbitrary constraints that radically alter the performance of the aircraft and change how the situation would normally be dealt with. Given the sensitivity of modern radar systems and the desire by many governments to keep exact specifications and performance secret, often the most advanced electronics are withheld from use in exercises, even though these systems are key to the aircraft's intended performance.

The F-22 is a maneuverable aircraft and indeed it is very capable of dogfighting. But this isn't the primary intent of its design. The USAF expected that BVR combat would become more important in the future, and it is designed with this in mind.

I was just under the impression that in addition to its purpose as a BVR fighter, it could also match equally capable opponents in dogfighting, as evidenced by its clashes with the Typhoons?

[Lyras]

Just dug this up...

For folks that think a Longsword-esque ship is impossible, here's a civilian vessel of similar size (though under-weight, as passenger vessels tend to be) that is theorised.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/engine ... -city1.htm

Also put some very rough calculations through the stuff from this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strength_of_ships and came nowhere near structural failure points. Seaworthiness, at least as far as metal fatigue and load limits of the steel, is fine. Given the size, and its very wide beam, it's probably quite a stable vessel, and likely good for anyone who gets seasick.

[Spirit of Hope]

Just dug this up...

For folks that think a Longsword-esque ship is impossible, here's a civilian vessel of similar size (though under-weight, as passenger vessels tend to be) that is theorised.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/engine ... -city1.htm

Yes people with design skills made a similar sized vessel, that from reading the article has a very different aim, was never anywhere near being made, and still has a numb of issues.

I've never healed that the Longsword is impossible, just that it is impractical to the extreme.

[Velkanika]

Oh, but it does mean it is operational. IOC is a minimum number in service to certify that it is now capable of being fielded in significant numbers with a minimum level of certified capacity dictated by the program goals. The F-35As already delivered are capable of firing live weapons and conducting limited combat operations, so they are operational in limited service.

If the IOC is in the future, how is it operational?

They're not operational because they're still in testing. Oh no, fires! Oh no, a thunderstorm!

No, that's just low-rate production.

I don't expect anyone who isn't a government employee to understand what all that means.

Then you have terrible expectations.

I don't expect anyone who isn't personally involved with F-35 to know its operational status, though. Please continue to grace us with your esteemed and privileged knowledge.

I'm talking about the categories the aircraft is placed under by the federal government, which are part of the public record in this case. IOC and Operational status are different things.

And I will gladly share insights of my amazing Google-enhanced intellect with the technically ignorant masses.

As has been mentioned, exercises often have very artificial and arbitrary constraints that radically alter the performance of the aircraft and change how the situation would normally be dealt with. Given the sensitivity of modern radar systems and the desire by many governments to keep exact specifications and performance secret, often the most advanced electronics are withheld from use in exercises, even though these systems are key to the aircraft's intended performance.

The F-22 is a maneuverable aircraft and indeed it is very capable of dogfighting. But this isn't the primary intent of its design. The USAF expected that BVR combat would become more important in the future, and it is designed with this in mind.

I was just under the impression that in addition to its purpose as a BVR fighter, it could also match equally capable opponents in dogfighting, as evidenced by its clashes with the Typhoons?

You've got it exactly. The F-22 is at least as capable as the most advanced non-stealthy fighters in WVR and far superior in BVR.

Just dug this up...

For folks that think a Longsword-esque ship is impossible, here's a civilian vessel of similar size (though under-weight, as passenger vessels tend to be) that is theorised.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/engine ... -city1.htm

Also put some very rough calculations through the stuff from this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strength_of_ships and came nowhere near structural failure points. Seaworthiness, at least as far as metal fatigue and load limits of the steel, is fine. Given the size, and its very wide beam, it's probably quite a stable vessel, and likely good for anyone who gets seasick.

Very interesting. I hope they've got a reliable steel suppler for that thing though if they ever build it.

[Vancon]

The Mech

So, first and foremost, I want anyone reading this to look at the gun this mech is holding.

Now, would it be safe to assume that it could be carrying a 120mm Semi/fullauto rifle?
If so, (this applies to whatever mm this thing is deemed to be) can someone make a list of the different types of rounds this thing could carry?, such as canister shots, sabot rounds etc...?
Slightly to the right, there is three circles with a line through them. Could these be smoke grenade launchers?
Even more so to the right, there is an assortment of six holes, in three columns stacked two high. What could these be? I was thinking of missiles or .50 cal machine-guns.

[Inyourfaceistan]

The Mech

So, first and foremost, I want anyone reading this to look at the gun this mech is holding.

Now, would it be safe to assume that it could be carrying a 120mm Semi/fullauto rifle?
If so, (this applies to whatever mm this thing is deemed to be) can someone make a list of the different types of rounds this thing could carry?, such as canister shots, sabot rounds etc...?
Slightly to the right, there is three circles with a line through them. Could these be smoke grenade launchers?
Even more so to the right, there is an assortment of six holes, in three columns stacked two high. What could these be? I was thinking of missiles or .50 cal machine-guns.

I hate to be the thirst to burst your bubble, but mechs aren't exactly useful or capable of much.

I mean one RPG-7 to the correct spot could take that thing down in an instant...

[Vancon]

The Mech

So, first and foremost, I want anyone reading this to look at the gun this mech is holding.

Now, would it be safe to assume that it could be carrying a 120mm Semi/fullauto rifle?
If so, (this applies to whatever mm this thing is deemed to be) can someone make a list of the different types of rounds this thing could carry?, such as canister shots, sabot rounds etc...?
Slightly to the right, there is three circles with a line through them. Could these be smoke grenade launchers?
Even more so to the right, there is an assortment of six holes, in three columns stacked two high. What could these be? I was thinking of missiles or .50 cal machine-guns.

I hate to be the thirst to burst your bubble, but mechs aren't exactly useful or capable of much.

I mean one RPG-7 to the correct spot could take that thing down in an instant...

'Tis but for a FanT RP. I already understand the cons of mechs. I'm just talking about it's armament today.

[Lyras]

Just dug this up...

For folks that think a Longsword-esque ship is impossible, here's a civilian vessel of similar size (though under-weight, as passenger vessels tend to be) that is theorised.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/engine ... -city1.htm

Yes people with design skills made a similar sized vessel, that from reading the article has a very different aim, was never anywhere near being made, and still has a numb of issues.

I've never healed that the Longsword is impossible, just that it is impractical to the extreme.

Impractical implies it's do-able, pedantic though the difference is.
I would argue that the do-able vessel is useful. Though care needs be taken. But practicality or otherwise becomes a user-discretion judgement.
Admittedly most folks don't do so properly, but that's a separate matter.

[Inyourfaceistan]

I hate to be the thirst to burst your bubble, but mechs aren't exactly useful or capable of much.

I mean one RPG-7 to the correct spot could take that thing down in an instant...

'Tis but for a FanT RP. I already understand the cons of mechs. I'm just talking about it's armament today.

I mean it could be anywhere from 40mm to 155mm depending on how large that mech is. I don't see anything to scale so there is no indication of its size...

[The Kievan People]

I was just under the impression that in addition to its purpose as a BVR fighter, it could also match equally capable opponents in dogfighting, as evidenced by its clashes with the Typhoons?

You would probably be the first one then to cite that as something than proof stealth doesn't work and the F-22 is a failure

[Vancon]

'Tis but for a FanT RP. I already understand the cons of mechs. I'm just talking about it's armament today.

I mean it could be anywhere from 40mm to 155mm depending on how large that mech is. I don't see anything to scale so there is no indication of its size...

I would geusstimate about 30-40ft.

[Mitheldalond]

The Mech

So, first and foremost, I want anyone reading this to look at the gun this mech is holding.

Now, would it be safe to assume that it could be carrying a 120mm Semi/fullauto rifle?
If so, (this applies to whatever mm this thing is deemed to be) can someone make a list of the different types of rounds this thing could carry?, such as canister shots, sabot rounds etc...?
Slightly to the right, there is three circles with a line through them. Could these be smoke grenade launchers?
Even more so to the right, there is an assortment of six holes, in three columns stacked two high. What could these be? I was thinking of missiles or .50 cal machine-guns.

I hate to be the thirst to burst your bubble, but mechs aren't exactly useful or capable of much.

I mean one RPG-7 to the correct spot could take that thing down in an instant...

To be fair, the same could be said of most things that get hit by RPGs.

Now that Longswords have been brought up, how well do you think a system specifically designed to kill Longswords would sell on GE&T?

And how long after releasing such a system would I have before Lyras turns my nation into a steaming crater?

[Spirit of Hope]

Yes people with design skills made a similar sized vessel, that from reading the article has a very different aim, was never anywhere near being made, and still has a numb of issues.

I've never healed that the Longsword is impossible, just that it is impractical to the extreme.

Impractical implies it's do-able, pedantic though the difference is.
I would argue that the do-able vessel is useful. Though care needs be taken. But practicality or otherwise becomes a user-discretion judgement.
Admittedly most folks don't do so properly, but that's a separate matter.

As I said it isn't impossible, it is just near completely impractical.

The thing that always gets me is where and how do you build it or repair it? You need a dry dock over a kilometer and a quarter long, with a draft of 45 meters. There are almost no protected harbors where you can make such a dry dock, and the engineering that would go into it are immense. If it gets damaged abroad such that it can't come back by itself it is a write off, their is no way you could get a recovery vehicle big enough or get a strong enough cable to tow.

Beyond that it serves little practical purpose in combat, OHR is god, but AWACs are easier, cheaper, and more versatile.
It weapons range is still less than what planes carrying missiles can achieve.
I could go on but we have both seen the complaints against the Longsword dozens of times haven't we?

In the end I actually agree that if you wanted to you could make it, there is just no way it is worth the enormous resources that would have to be spent to even begin making it.

[Inyourfaceistan]

Yes people with design skills made a similar sized vessel, that from reading the article has a very different aim, was never anywhere near being made, and still has a numb of issues.

I've never healed that the Longsword is impossible, just that it is impractical to the extreme.

Impractical implies it's do-able, pedantic though the difference is.
I would argue that the do-able vessel is useful. Though care needs be taken. But practicality or otherwise becomes a user-discretion judgement.
Admittedly most folks don't do so properly, but that's a separate matter.

Except what inspiration did you draw the SAM with a 1,100km range from?
What existing system can I look to as a reference as a SAM that can reach even near that?

[Hasmonea]

I hate to be the thirst to burst your bubble, but mechs aren't exactly useful or capable of much.

I mean one RPG-7 to the correct spot could take that thing down in an instant...

To be fair, the same could be said of most things that get hit by RPGs.

Now that Longswords have been brought up, how well do you think a system specifically designed to kill Longswords would sell on GE&T?

And how long after releasing such a system would I have before Lyras turns my nation into a steaming crater?

I'd imagine users of the Longsword are either grossly incompetent in which case even relatively conventional methods and weapons could defeat one, or competent in which case they're plain simply hard to get at since they're supposed to be at the epicenter of inherently large fleets...

Impractical implies it's do-able, pedantic though the difference is.
I would argue that the do-able vessel is useful. Though care needs be taken. But practicality or otherwise becomes a user-discretion judgement.
Admittedly most folks don't do so properly, but that's a separate matter.

Except what inspiration did you draw the SAM with a 1,100km range from?
What existing system can I look to as a reference as a SAM that can reach even near that?

Theoretically you could achieve any range or payload with a sufficiently large missile. A missile with unlimited range is possible, even.

Personally I'd prefer aircraft toting missiles over SAMs for long range engagement of air targets though.

[Lyras]

I mean it could be anywhere from 40mm to 155mm depending on how large that mech is. I don't see anything to scale so there is no indication of its size...

I would geusstimate about 30-40ft.

Partly depends on the Mech's capcity for recoil mitigation, and it's extant ground-pressure... Low velocity HE-lobbers could get pretty big in the bore.


Spirit of Hope: Very large OTH radar capacity (ranged well beyond any existing AWACs) and capacity to use it to vector in other assets to strike. Worth it as fleets get into the thousands-plus.

Inyourfaceistan: Off the top of my head, I am uncertain. I have my notes at home, I'll see if I can dig them up.

[Vancon]

I would geusstimate about 30-40ft.

Partly depends on the Mech's capcity for recoil mitigation, and it's extant ground-pressure... Low velocity HE-lobbers could get pretty big in the bore.

Would Semi work then, but full auto available if really needed?

Also, what about the machine guns and smoke 'nades?