NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #6

[Rich and Corporations]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semicondu ... tion_plant


Important factories will be underground, camouflaged, and protected by several million dollars in anti-aircraft equipment.

And well worth spending a few more bunker-busting cruise missiles on.


That being said, factories as targets is a product of flawed strategic thinking. This is no longer WW2, where production during warfare is likely to be a meaningful contribution to the conflict. Once a war has begun, the factories are almost irrelevant.

[Lyras]

And well worth spending a few more bunker-busting cruise missiles on.


That being said, factories as targets is a product of flawed strategic thinking. This is no longer WW2, where production during warfare is likely to be a meaningful contribution to the conflict. Once a war has begun, the factories are almost irrelevant.

A u-boat pen is a dock, not a factory...

[Allanea]

More to the point, putting factories underground makes production (and future renovation in the factories) more expensive. Certain factories (like major aircraft factories) are borderline impossible to put underground.

If the fear of your enemy's cruise missiles has caused your civilization to move underground, huddling in caves like Neanderthals because the Hellions might come then in effect your enemy has already won.

[Gingeska]

So as far as SPAAGs...

How much radar-guided and how much nonradar is ideal?

Non-radar SPAAGs are not susceptible to SEAD ARMs.

Radar guided have the advantage of well.. Using radar.

Gingeska uses both 23mm non-radar SPAAGs and 57mm non-radar SPAAGs.

Should these be used in concert? As in a SEAD aircraft goes after a radar target, and the "dumb SPAAGs" open up on it.

[Lyras]

So as far as SPAAGs...

How much radar-guided and how much nonradar is ideal?

Non-radar SPAAGs are not susceptible to SEAD ARMs.

Radar guided have the advantage of well.. Using radar.

Gingeska uses both 23mm non-radar SPAAGs and 57mm non-radar SPAAGs.

Should these be used in concert? As in a SEAD aircraft goes after a radar target, and the "dumb SPAAGs" open up on it.

The key here is good data-linking. But you are not wrong. Even SLAMRAAMs, or their equivalent, are handy here. Multiple mobile interlocking ground-based radars that don't stay on the whole time are also good to have.

[Imperializt Russia]

So you will move your entire major industry underground?

In NS terms, this is a fairly sane response.

A u-boat pen is a dock, not a factory...

Critically, both are reduced in effectiveness by a cruise missile's entry hole in the ceiling.

America has one tank factory (complex). It's currently not in operation.

[Rich and Corporations]

A u-boat pen is a dock, not a factory...

So what does that make a dry dock?

More to the point, putting factories underground makes production (and future renovation in the factories) more expensive. Certain factories (like major aircraft factories) are borderline impossible to put underground.

If the fear of your enemy's cruise missiles has caused your civilization to move underground, huddling in caves like Neanderthals because the Hellions might come then in effect your enemy has already won.

Cement is cheap. Steel is not.

I understand that you "did the math," I just think you may have made an error.
Equivalent radar coverage from land would be more easily targeted? What's the turning radius of a longsword? Probably many times it's length. I think it's quite easy to predict where a Longsword will be.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsinkabl ... ft_carrier <- yes, quite unsinkable
Let's see. Your Longsword weighs 9 million tonnes or displaces 9 million cubic meters of water, and it costs over a trillion NSD.
Top-grade cement costs say... $100 per cubic yard which is close enough to a cubic meter.
For the cost of your Longsword, I can fill Lake Superior up with cement.
I could build a mountain of a military base, invulnerable to even a direct hit from Tsar Bomba.
I could build a radar far greater then JORN. I could build many more radars as well. And ring them with a far greater number of anti-missile defenses then you could carry by sea.

And JORN is not as powerful as one would think: http://www.smh.com.au/national/border-r ... 1gwio.html
It would be possible to devise stealth missiles capable of not being detected until your inner-defenses detect them.

[Imperializt Russia]

Strictly speaking, a cubic yard is equivalent to about 0.75 cubic metres.

[Gingeska]

So as far as SPAAGs...

How much radar-guided and how much nonradar is ideal?

Non-radar SPAAGs are not susceptible to SEAD ARMs.

Radar guided have the advantage of well.. Using radar.

Gingeska uses both 23mm non-radar SPAAGs and 57mm non-radar SPAAGs.

Should these be used in concert? As in a SEAD aircraft goes after a radar target, and the "dumb SPAAGs" open up on it.

The key here is good data-linking. But you are not wrong. Even SLAMRAAMs, or their equivalent, are handy here. Multiple mobile interlocking ground-based radars that don't stay on the whole time are also good to have.

We use a 4x 23mm radar guided SPAAG, which is the only radar SPAAG in use.

Non-Radar:
- 2x 57mm
- 2x 23mm + Strzała-2 IR SAM

Wildcard: Vehicle based on MT-LB with 2x 23mm Antiaircraft gun. Primarily used as transport of MANPADS teams. Also for organic AA for mechanized units.

The Kub system (SA-6 "gainful") is the primary radar SAM.
The S-300 (SA-10 Grumble) is used as a long range SAM, although in much smaller numbers than the Kub.

That's basically what my air defenses are made up of.
Just trying to figure out the exact employment of these systems.

[Lyras]

A u-boat pen is a dock, not a factory...

So what does that make a dry dock?

More to the point, putting factories underground makes production (and future renovation in the factories) more expensive. Certain factories (like major aircraft factories) are borderline impossible to put underground.

If the fear of your enemy's cruise missiles has caused your civilization to move underground, huddling in caves like Neanderthals because the Hellions might come then in effect your enemy has already won.

Cement is cheap. Steel is not.

A drydock is a long-term repair or construction place. A place to build ships. A submarine pen is generally (though not always) a place (specifically designed for submarines) from which to operate, refuel/rearm and repair (usually fairly moderate repairs) in secret. They're quite purpose-built, generally.

Actually, they're both quite cheap. The combat capability, and ability to influence the war, is the important part. The loser tends to foot the bill anyway.

I understand that you "did the math," I just think you may have made an error.
Equivalent radar coverage from land would be more easily targeted? What's the turning radius of a longsword? Probably many times it's length. I think it's quite easy to predict where a Longsword will be.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsinkabl ... ft_carrier <- yes, quite unsinkable
Let's see. Your Longsword weighs 9 million tonnes or displaces 9 million cubic meters of water, and it costs over a trillion NSD.
Top-grade cement costs say... $100 per cubic yard which is close enough to a cubic meter.
For the cost of your Longsword, I can fill Lake Superior up with cement.
I could build a mountain of a military base, invulnerable to even a direct hit from Tsar Bomba.
I could build a radar far greater then JORN. I could build many more radars as well. And ring them with a far greater number of anti-missile defenses then you could carry by sea.

And JORN is not as powerful as one would think: http://www.smh.com.au/national/border-r ... 1gwio.html
It would be possible to devise stealth missiles capable of not being detected until your inner-defenses detect them.

SMH is a terrible source, that doesn't know it's arse from its skull.
You could build many things for the cost of the Longsword. But the capacity for a mobile OTH radar platform as part of a cohesive and well integrated fleet, with large quantities of stand-off and long-range weapons within that fleet, enables that fleet to strike enemies from beyond their radar range.

Though that wasn't the discussion. We were actually talking about missiles. But hey. All good either way.

[Inyourfaceistan]

Oh the Longsword. Realism at its finest...

Anyways, correct me if I'm wrong in getting the implication here that in order for a cruise missile to take a more survivable route of attack (ie hugging the surface) it actually looses range from its maximum potential range?

[Rich and Corporations]

Oh the Longsword. Realism at its finest...

Anyways, correct me if I'm wrong in getting the implication here that in order for a cruise missile to take a more survivable route of attack (ie hugging the surface) it actually looses range from its maximum potential range?

It's true for planes as well.

It has to deal with friction from increased air pressure at low altitudes.

[Allanea]

Cement may be cheap.

Large, elaborate concrete shelters capable of taking the impact of a modern cruise missile are less so.

[Inyourfaceistan]

Oh the Longsword. Realism at its finest...

Anyways, correct me if I'm wrong in getting the implication here that in order for a cruise missile to take a more survivable route of attack (ie hugging the surface) it actually looses range from its maximum potential range?

It's true for planes as well.

It has to deal with friction from increased air pressure at low altitudes.

Hm. Good to know...

[Primordial Luxa]

Greetings can anyone give an opinion on my military doctrine?
Thanks in advance

• Luxan Military Objectives
o One of the most central objectives that Luxans attempt to achieve, if they think they will be engaging in a prolonged military conflict, is Enemy Force Isolation. This objective helps in extended conflicts by slowly but potently draining the enemy’s ability to fight. It relies on stopping troops, supplies and information from entering enemy held territory or contested space. To accomplish this Luxans will attempt to control enemy land borders with Ballistic Artillery and Air Support, blockade coasts with mines as well as air and sea patrols, and to monitor airspace with SAM’s, Sea based defenses and fighters.
o Luxans have found that the fast way to force surrender or cause disorientation in an enemy force is the complete destruction of their leadership and command infrastructure. Because of this the opening moves of a Luxan force will be to conduct powerful attack on enemy command positions either with a single ruthless and destructive attack to cut the enemies head off or several blows to command assets. This objective is also achieved in cyber space as well as Luxans target and destroy the enemy’s ability to communicate and function as a collective force further removing the abilities of the commanders. This type of attack is meant to be as equitable as possible by using small amount of force to cause a massive amount of strategic damage.
o Similar to force isolation is the destruction of the enemy’s logistics which is based around destroying the life blood of the enemy forces by removing what they need to fight. This is typically done in a series of harrowing attacks that destroy bases or convoys that contain vast amount of weapons, ammo, food, or raw materials.
• Typical Strategies
o Pre-emptive strikes
o Isolating enemy forces
o Shock and Awe assaults
o Mass air troop attack
o Simultaneous small attack on enemy infrastructure and key positions.
• Luxan Military Demographic
o The Luxan Empire spends nearly a third of its federal budget on its military and as such is more than likely that Luxan force will possess a vastly superior technological edge over their opponents. This will normally include higher generation air fighters, better equipped warships and more modernized electronics. While it is possible that enemies of Luxa may be equipped with their own high grade technology few nations prioritize defense like we do and as such having more advanced systems is a reasonable assumption.
o One weakness that Luxan Empire will typically will suffer from is a lack of manpower and most nations will possess an army larger than any expeditionary force launched. This is because the amount of money put into each Luxan soldiers will typically be more than their opponents allowing them to field more troops. While Luxans soldiers may be expensive they are typically better fighters than their enemies. In order to make up for this weakness Luxan forces must battle in ways that make their enemies size less useful or damaging as well as using technologies such as aircrafts and cruise missile to reduce reliance on basic infantry.
o The Luxan military rarely fights alone and with typically fight alongside the militaries of other nations who share similar interested in a scenario or other members of the Empire who are bound to do so. This is done mainly to show international support for Luxa’s goals but also to lessen the burden on Luxan troops and to make up for the Luxan armies small size. Because of this communication is essential and must be maintained. Typical strategies include using allied forces to attack second and third tier targets, having allies attack as a second wave, as well as having allies protect supply resources or previously conquered territory.
• Possible Variables
o If Luxa is without allies in a war or international conflict they will find themselves fighting a very difficult uphill battle that will require them to deploy extra troops to make up for the lack of allied support. If this happens it is important for Luxan forces to strike fast and hard with vast amounts of fire power in order to gain an early upper hand. This is believed to be the worst possible situation for the Luxan military to face.
o There is the very distinct possibility that members of the Luxan Empire might turn against the homeland. While it is fine for nations to leave and ignore certain policies a military attack against another nation in the empire will be met with swift and utter destruction. In this situation Luxan forces will attempt to cause complete and utter destruction of the enemy’s leadership, military, and government infrastructure.
• Luxan Specific Orders
o Cenobite
 An order commonly given in an occupied civilian area as a terror tactic, it allows Luxans soldiers to do as they please with no repercussions of any kind. Owning to Luxans sadistic demeanor this typically involves mass murder, torture, looting and defacement occurring on a city wide scale.
• Luxan Nuclear Doctrine
o Luxa will always strive to avoid nuclear war whenever possible and will never engage in a first strike unless our second strike capabilities are threated or destroyed.
o Luxa will declare a first strike if
 Luxan Nuclear armed submarines, Luxan Strategic Bombers or Luxan ICBM’s are attacked without provocation
 Luxan missile detection systems such as PAVE paws or radar satellites are attacked.
o Luxa will declare a second strike if
 A Nuclear weapon of 25 Kilotons or greater is aimed at Luxan civilian targets
 A Nuclear weapon of 50 Kilotons or greater is aimed at Luxan territory
 A Nuclear weapon of 100 Kilotons or greater is aimed at Luxan military targets

bump

[Lyras]

It's true for planes as well.

It has to deal with friction from increased air pressure at low altitudes.

Hm. Good to know...

Many folks don't like the Longsword. I understand this. But there's nothing magical or impossible about what it is, or does, especially given the scale of NS.

Not for everyone, sure. But nothing physics-breaking.

And yes, as both R&C and Allanea both indicated, lower altitude normally means lower range, for a number of reasons.

[Triplebaconation]

Hm. Good to know...

Many folks don't like the Longsword. I understand this. But there's nothing magical or impossible about what it is, or does, especially given the scale of NS.

Not for everyone, sure. But nothing physics-breaking.

How did you estimate the longitudinal strength again?'

What's the radar's resolution? Or even the beam angle?

[Padnak]

Hm. Good to know...

Many folks don't like the Longsword. I understand this. But there's nothing magical or impossible about what it is, or does, especially given the scale of NS.

Not for everyone, sure. But nothing physics-breaking.

And yes, as both R&C and Allanea both indicated, lower altitude normally means lower range, for a number of reasons.

Did you get the chance to see the Mil-bagger madness...

[Vancon]

Many folks don't like the Longsword. I understand this. But there's nothing magical or impossible about what it is, or does, especially given the scale of NS.

Not for everyone, sure. But nothing physics-breaking.

And yes, as both R&C and Allanea both indicated, lower altitude normally means lower range, for a number of reasons.

Did you get the chance to see the Mil-bagger madness...

Speaking of the MIl-Bagger and Longsword, I was thinking of making a specific thread for behemoths like those because not everyone on the Mil-Realism and GV7 are the biggest fan of them. Is this a good idea?

[Rich and Corporations]

Many folks don't like the Longsword. I understand this. But there's nothing magical or impossible about what it is, or does, especially given the scale of NS.

Not for everyone, sure. But nothing physics-breaking.

How did you estimate the longitudinal strength again?'

What's the radar's resolution? Or even the beam angle?

he scaled a WWII battleship up to kilometer

it's even why it has a 40 m draft

[Lyras]

In a manner not dissimilar to most constructions, the exact details of every nut and bolt are not something I have gone into.

But having an appropriate length to beam to draft ratio was something I checked, as well as keeping the engine proportions and reactor output/throughput within tolerances.

TBN, you seriously want me to go so far as to provide the intricacies of this radar? Down to beam angle? Perhaps you're taking the point a little far, yes?

The principle I use is that x, y and z are achievable with contemporary technology. Can I, personally, replicate it all? Of course not. But that it CAN be done is the important point. And it can.

[Triplebaconation]

Quite frankly, you're just guessing.

[Rich and Corporations]

I just want to be clear about how this discussion started. Using maximum range for a munition (I'm being quite clear that bullets and missiles are to some extent, the same), is absurd, because maximum range is not something used all of the time. It escalated into why you aren't a beacon of realism. But I must assert that the x axis of your ship is unrealistic. Furthermore, most fleets try to have ships of equal draft. This is because the more draft, the less surface area for a given tonnage, and thus one tries to maximize the draught, even factoring in an upgrade margin. It's even more unrealistic that you are doing the reverse of what every real military does, dispersion of command assets. You put your commanders on a handful of multi-trillion dollar ships. This isn't putting all your eggs in one basket, this is putting all your yolks in one egg.

[San-Silvacian]

Since we are doing the "Well, it can be done if we just put $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ into it." Why not outfit with railgun and laser CIWS.

[Allanea]

Quite frankly, you're just guessing.

You say it as if it is somehow a point against the design.

Literally not a single vehicle in NS, not a single vessel, not a single firearm, is a design. Everyone to some extent is guessing - some, using their general knowledge, others using elaborate calculators - how wide the receiver of a firearm built on the Mauser action in 5.8 mm would be, how thick the armor on a 80-ton tank built with composite armor would be.

This is a fantasy roleplaying game for which we worldbuild a variety of designs and vehicles. I understand to some degree the opposition to outlandish designs (left entirely unchecked, such designs will no doubt lead to, say, rampant mecha use).

But this opposition has limits. When you are asking about arcane and intricate details of the design to try and score a point against it, you have reached those limits.