NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #5

[Krazeria]

Over-the-horizon radar ship turned into missilespam destroyer.

#NSLogic

*Implying that a there is such a thing as a non missile spam destroyer*

[Lyras]

Over-the-horizon radar ship turned into missilespam destroyer.

#NSLogic

It seems the collective inability to grasp the idea of OTHER PLATFORMS firing the missiles knows no bounds.

I'm not pointing this comment at anyone in particular. 'tis simply an observation. Longswords spot fleets. Other force elements generally fire the missiles. Sure, Longswords CAN, but doctrinally are normally carrying other weapons, and generally they are intended for fleet- and self-defence.

[Krazeria]

Serious question: would nuclear powered destroyers and other similarly sized vessels work?

[Dragomere]

Serious question: would nuclear powered destroyers and other similarly sized vessels work?

Yes, assuming that you are using MT and above technology.

[Svendborg-]

Serious question: would nuclear powered destroyers and other similarly sized vessels work?

Considering destroyers and other similar sized vessels are the ones most commonly given NPPs...

[The Akasha Colony]

Serious question: would nuclear powered destroyers and other similarly sized vessels work?

Yes.

[Rich and Corporations]

If Taiwan (???) ever buys any F-35s, I'll post in NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #999 from the nursing home and publicly proclaim that the Longsword is a well thought out and practical design.

I saw this, and see it a bit, but just thought that I'd draw collective attention to something.

I just sunk 5,000 Stevidian ships. Because I had a Longsword in my fleet. I could see, and target, the Stevidian 5th Fleet, due to the Longsword's OTH radar. A piece of equipment that I could otherwise not utilise, due to the size of the over-the-horizon radar. Its a capability I can't replicate with anything smaller. Which is, of course, why I make such large ships.

I lost nothing, save the cruise missiles I fired to sink that fleet. 5,000 ships sunk, and over two million personnel lost, if I calculate correctly. 0 Lyran losses.

This is why Longswords exist.

Just thought I'd put that out there.

The longsword uses a bistatic radar.
Smaller bistatic radars exist, and one could swarm a bunch of ships to conduct radar in unison.

Or use an AWACs.

or use a hypersonic cruisemissile with literally one tonne of explosives and a incendiary shaped charge.

[Lyras]

I saw this, and see it a bit, but just thought that I'd draw collective attention to something.

I just sunk 5,000 Stevidian ships. Because I had a Longsword in my fleet. I could see, and target, the Stevidian 5th Fleet, due to the Longsword's OTH radar. A piece of equipment that I could otherwise not utilise, due to the size of the over-the-horizon radar. Its a capability I can't replicate with anything smaller. Which is, of course, why I make such large ships.

I lost nothing, save the cruise missiles I fired to sink that fleet. 5,000 ships sunk, and over two million personnel lost, if I calculate correctly. 0 Lyran losses.

This is why Longswords exist.

Just thought I'd put that out there.

The longsword uses a bistatic radar.
Smaller bistatic radars exist, and one could swarm a bunch of ships to conduct radar in unison.

Or use an AWACs.

or use a hypersonic cruisemissile with literally one tonne of explosives and a incendiary shaped charge.

If you have to put a radar close to the enemy, the radar can be hit. Thus, using multiple small radars to put a whole bunch of overlapping circles of radar coverage to the same area, while cheaper, means you will have critically incomplete coverage.

AEWACs has inferior range to a large-scale OTH radar. This is not news. But a reasonable compromise at smaller scales.
Hypersonic (at least in sprint) cruise missiles are win. This used, in conjunction with OTH radar, is what wins wars, imho.

[San-Silvacian]

Over-the-horizon radar ship turned into missilespam destroyer.

#NSLogic

It seems the collective inability to grasp the idea of OTHER PLATFORMS firing the missiles knows no bounds.

I'm not pointing this comment at anyone in particular. 'tis simply an observation. Longswords spot fleets. Other force elements generally fire the missiles. Sure, Longswords CAN, but doctrinally are normally carrying other weapons, and generally they are intended for fleet- and self-defence.

Fill every single tube with ESSM, RM-161, RIM-174.

Win NS though making the enemy run out of missiles.

[Lyras]

It seems the collective inability to grasp the idea of OTHER PLATFORMS firing the missiles knows no bounds.

I'm not pointing this comment at anyone in particular. 'tis simply an observation. Longswords spot fleets. Other force elements generally fire the missiles. Sure, Longswords CAN, but doctrinally are normally carrying other weapons, and generally they are intended for fleet- and self-defence.

Fill every single tube with ESSM, RM-161, RIM-174.

Win NS though making the enemy run out of missiles.

While entertaining, the use of attendant escorts and arsenal ships for missile volume is the norm. Although the mental image is amusing.

[San-Silvacian]

Fill every single tube with ESSM, RM-161, RIM-174.

Win NS though making the enemy run out of missiles.

While entertaining, the use of attendant escorts and arsenal ships for missile volume is the norm. Although the mental image is amusing.

This is NS. Norm is bad.

Longsword carriers tens of thousands of ESSMs, RIM-161/174s while rest of fleet carry AShMs and ESSMs for self-defense.

Enemy fleet runs out of missiles, conduct ASW and kill enemy submarines.

Kill enemy fleet with airplanes w/ Exocet and AShMs.

[Rich and Corporations]

The longsword uses a bistatic radar.
Smaller bistatic radars exist, and one could swarm a bunch of ships to conduct radar in unison.

Or use an AWACs.

or use a hypersonic cruisemissile with literally one tonne of explosives and a incendiary shaped charge.

If you have to put a radar close to the enemy, the radar can be hit. Thus, using multiple small radars to put a whole bunch of overlapping circles of radar coverage to the same area, while cheaper, means you will have critically incomplete coverage.

AEWACs has inferior range to a large-scale OTH radar. This is not news. But a reasonable compromise at smaller scales.
Hypersonic (at least in sprint) cruise missiles are win. This used, in conjunction with OTH radar, is what wins wars, imho.

fortunately it won't be hard to detect the location of a longsword

infact, if someone maintain a bombardment of anti-radiation missiles, the longsword will be forced to turn off it's radar many many times.

[Lyras]

While entertaining, the use of attendant escorts and arsenal ships for missile volume is the norm. Although the mental image is amusing.

This is NS. Norm is bad.

Longsword carriers tens of thousands of ESSMs, RIM-161/174s while rest of fleet carry AShMs and ESSMs for self-defense.

Enemy fleet runs out of missiles, conduct ASW and kill enemy submarines.

Kill enemy fleet with airplanes w/ Exocet and AShMs.

Possible... but aircraft carrying Exocets have to get within 200km to fire upon the enemy fleet, which is within the range of enemy combat air patrol. Lyran fleet or ground forces carrying Hellions can stand-off at 3,000km. That's a plus.

[Lyras]

If you have to put a radar close to the enemy, the radar can be hit. Thus, using multiple small radars to put a whole bunch of overlapping circles of radar coverage to the same area, while cheaper, means you will have critically incomplete coverage.

AEWACs has inferior range to a large-scale OTH radar. This is not news. But a reasonable compromise at smaller scales.
Hypersonic (at least in sprint) cruise missiles are win. This used, in conjunction with OTH radar, is what wins wars, imho.

fortunately it won't be hard to detect the location of a longsword

infact, if someone maintain a bombardment of anti-radiation missiles, the longsword will be forced to turn off it's radar many many times.

Find an anti-radiation missile with 7,000km or range, then get back to me on that. And then find me one that can get through the escorts, and the Longsword's own defences, without its firing platform having a really bad day. In fact, many, really bad days, or bad weeks even, before getting anywhere near firing range.

[Rich and Corporations]

This is NS. Norm is bad.

Longsword carriers tens of thousands of ESSMs, RIM-161/174s while rest of fleet carry AShMs and ESSMs for self-defense.

Enemy fleet runs out of missiles, conduct ASW and kill enemy submarines.

Kill enemy fleet with airplanes w/ Exocet and AShMs.

Possible... but aircraft carrying Exocets have to get within 200km to fire upon the enemy fleet, which is within the range of enemy combat air patrol. Lyran fleet or ground forces carrying Hellions can stand-off at 3,000km. That's a plus.

really, you don't expect your enemy to do what you did and ''design'' missiles?
I could create a scaled up version of a BrahMos with a ramjet engine. the BrahMos could be controlled by a radio-relay drone sending a focused frequency hopping signal to the missile. The BrahMos will also be small enough to not be detected by JORN radar, but it could still be detected by smaller OTH radars.

or convert a SR-71 into a drone

[Inyourfaceistan]

Still worth a polite ignore cannon from any player who doesn't want to RP in a thread with kilometer-long warships housing OTH radar...

[Lyras]

Possible... but aircraft carrying Exocets have to get within 200km to fire upon the enemy fleet, which is within the range of enemy combat air patrol. Lyran fleet or ground forces carrying Hellions can stand-off at 3,000km. That's a plus.

really, you don't expect your enemy to do what you did and ''design'' missiles?
I could create a scaled up version of a BrahMos with a ramjet engine. the BrahMos could be controlled by a radio-relay drone sending a focused frequency hopping signal to the missile. The BrahMos will also be small enough to not be detected by JORN radar, but it could still be detected by smaller OTH radars.

Designing missiles is the same as designing anything on NS, subject to peer review, and critique for viability. Anything I've ever used has gone through that process. BrahMos range comes nowhere near the 7,000km of detection envelope that the firing platform would have to cross, and would itself also be detectable from 1000km+ by the suite of other radars and detection systems that a Longsword fields.
Hellions are modest changes to the Tomahawk, for the record. Mainly software upgrades, and mild (mild!) engine tinkering. A bit less mild in the Hellion 2, but still at almost-identical-to-Tomahawk ranges.

Still worth a polite ignore cannon from any player who doesn't want to RP in a thread with kilometer-long warships housing OTH radar...

I understand the sentiment. Some folks find it confronting. NS is a hyper-militarised, resource-rich, high-ambient threat, very large world. In RL, the Longsword is not worthwhile. On NS, the equation is different, and I think it is justified. If someone would rather not deal with them, then that's a personal preference I am certainly willing to respect. But that's not because they are not technically feasible, or militarily useful, I would assert.

But then, I am biased.

[Rich and Corporations]

Still worth a polite ignore cannon from any player who doesn't want to RP in a thread with kilometer-long warships housing OTH radar...

any decent NS rper typically doesn't post in [Open] threads

[Inyourfaceistan]

Would it be possible to stick a passive radar seeker on a tomahawk missile?

(Not something I plan to emulate, just a hypothetical question)

[Lyras]

Would it be possible to stick a passive radar seeker on a tomahawk missile?

(Not something I plan to emulate, just a hypothetical question)

Yep. Quite possible. OTH radars are a bitch to track, however, because of the ionosphere-bouncing thing they do.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

I saw this, and see it a bit, but just thought that I'd draw collective attention to something.

I just sunk 5,000 Stevidian ships. Because I had a Longsword in my fleet. I could see, and target, the Stevidian 5th Fleet, due to the Longsword's OTH radar. A piece of equipment that I could otherwise not utilise, due to the size of the over-the-horizon radar. Its a capability I can't replicate with anything smaller. Which is, of course, why I make such large ships.

I lost nothing, save the cruise missiles I fired to sink that fleet. 5,000 ships sunk, and over two million personnel lost, if I calculate correctly. 0 Lyran losses.

This is why Longswords exist.

Just thought I'd put that out there.

The longsword uses a bistatic radar.
Smaller bistatic radars exist, and one could swarm a bunch of ships to conduct radar in unison.

Or use an AWACs.

or use a hypersonic cruisemissile with literally one tonne of explosives and a incendiary shaped charge.

What about strike-fighters/AWACS calling-in godrod-strikes?

Make it rain.

Granted, last time I did that, the Pudite fleet air-arm kinda decimated my fleet of Martime B-52s.

But dangit, sinking a 22nd century tech aircraft carrier with stuff built in 1972 was pretty epic.
*Even shot down a few of their planes, because nuclear AAMs are win.

[Lyras]

AWACs calling in orbital weapons requires:

1. AWACs not being shot down, which is tough, as their own radar is less ranged than the heavy SAMs that are available to bring them down, and are very vulnerable to weapons that a SDGN carries, let alone the escorts. Which of course are being assisted in THEIR targeting by the SDGN.

2. Orbital weapons. Which are themselves hideously expensive, and can be shot down by the ASATs that such a ship also carries. And can be remarkably inaccurate, and able to be engaged by kinetic ABM weapons, at least conceptually.

3. Airfields in range that haven't been struck. Which can be tough itself, if the SDGN-user is being cautious/thorough.

[Rich and Corporations]

really, you don't expect your enemy to do what you did and ''design'' missiles?
I could create a scaled up version of a BrahMos with a ramjet engine. the BrahMos could be controlled by a radio-relay drone sending a focused frequency hopping signal to the missile. The BrahMos will also be small enough to not be detected by JORN radar, but it could still be detected by smaller OTH radars.

Designing missiles is the same as designing anything on NS, subject to peer review, and critique for viability. Anything I've ever used has gone through that process. BrahMos range comes nowhere near the 7,000km of detection envelope that the firing platform would have to cross, and would itself also be detectable from 1000km+ by the suite of other radars and detection systems that a Longsword fields.
Hellions are modest changes to the Tomahawk, for the record. Mainly software upgrades, and mild (mild!) engine tinkering. A bit less mild in the Hellion 2, but still at almost-identical-to-Tomahawk ranges.

Let's go through the OODA loop for this situation.

1. I detect longsword since it's a friggan lighthouse, broadcasting communications and radar signals.
2. I send a few submarines into the area to launch a hundred missiles 3000 km away. Even with Mach 7 missiles, it'll take a minute to arrive. With Helion it'll take many more minutes. Those submarines will have submerged and due to the inaccuracy of OTH radars at long ranges, it will require an overwhelming response involving massed launches of missiles with depth charges.
3. Those missiles each have a distinct pre-programmed cryptographically pseudorandom flight path at several hundred meters. The missiles each have stealth paint and are too small to detect with a JORN OTH radar. Some of the missiles will be programmed to home in on the Longsword's radiation source within 50 km.
4. The Longsword cannot conduct any evasive maneuvers for reasons too obvious.
5. The missiles pepper the Longsword.


Alternatively, I could just use a suicide submarine, given that the Longsword's engines are so noisy, and place it under the Longsword. The cavitation caused by a few thousand tonnes of explosives could cause severe damage.

[San-Silvacian]

Thats why Longsword carries only ESSM, RIM-161/174s.

ESSM >>>>>> AShM.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

AWACs calling in orbital weapons requires:

1. AWACs not being shot down, which is tough, as their own radar is less ranged than the heavy SAMs that are available to bring them down, and are very vulnerable to weapons that a SDGN carries, let alone the escorts. Which of course are being assisted in THEIR targeting by the SDGN.

2. Orbital weapons. Which are themselves hideously expensive, and can be shot down by the ASATs that such a ship also carries. And can be remarkably inaccurate, and able to be engaged by kinetic ABM weapons, at least conceptually.

3. Airfields in range that haven't been struck. Which can be tough itself, if the SDGN-user is being cautious/thorough.

This is true.

I recall resorting to using a crudload of Stategic bombers and in-air-refueling by carrier-based assets, and pretty much going flight of tha valkiries on the Pudite Carrier fleet. Didn't get to use any orbital assets so I went with plan-'B' as in 'Internal Bombload'. They were also escorted by an even larger crudload of old F-4 Phantom IIs funtioning as spotters/escorts/pickets.

Sure, they sent up some interceptors, and it then became a nifty game of electronic-chicken as our front-liners aimed missiles fired from our respective busses and counted the seconds until impact... The first wave of Pudites didn't even bother to eject. Took about 20% casualties in the first engagement, a further 40% in the second... But I only needed the one bomber to make it.

Best suicide-mission ever.

Also, it took his attention away from performing ASW.

Tl;dr summary of what I did: I used a fleet of B-52s and F-4s almost exactly like the carriers/destroyers I was shooting-down, except faster, and with the intention of ramming.
Ofc, I was making my bomb-run against the wrong carrier fleet.