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What are mechas like in your nation?

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The Zeonic States
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Founded: Jul 29, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby The Zeonic States » Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:26 pm

The Akasha Colony wrote:Radiation emissions are extremely easy to detect at range. The US and other NATO nations have had nuclear monitoring satellites in orbit for decades, sensitive enough to easily detect even a few-kiloton nuclear detonation. The US Vela Hotel satellite of the famous Vela Incident could detect nuclear detonations via gamma ray, x-ray, and neutron emissions from orbit as small as 2-3 kilotons, and was built with 1960s era technology as a 'small-budget' project. Given the amount of observation being given toward Iran and North Korea for their nuclear programs and the last two decades of the Cold War, you can bet detection has advanced significantly since then.

Even if the Minovsky field does not generate radiation, the readily-observable effects of disruption would allow for relatively easy triangulation by any sensor unit outside the range of the field. Figure out part of the field's geometry and you can calculate the point of origin. Simple math.

Putting even that aside, the fact that you need handwaving of such a blatant magnitude to even attempt to justify a Gundam-type mecha is an indication of how ineffective they would be in any realistic setting. To make just this one model plausible in your head, you have to alter the laws of physics themselves. This isn't a matter of just making technology better, like many claim, this is a matter of changing reality. In which case you might as well make up arbitrary physical rules that make tank treads suddenly less useful, or somehow make more complex machines easier to maintain.

Now, I like Gundam (except Gundam 00). It's one of my favorite franchises, and in less hard SF versions of my nations, they sometimes even make appearances. But it's just not practical once reality sets in.


You do know that sceinctists have discovered a particle that mirrors what the M particle does right?

Alright now that bit of wisdom has been imparted let's assume this particle could be created and thus be emitted by some sort of warfare engine to remove detection, And less also assume that this techology has been common place enough for most Modern militaries employ it.

Alright you following me so far? Good. Listing off the reason why such a machine if it was applied in the techology of its time into actual battlefields using said techology is not HANDWAVING.

I have repeatedly stated yet people continue to ignore apparently that in the current day this would be a major boondoogle assuming it could be done at all and what with the fusion reactor being needed to power the systems and computer equipment and weaponry along with the propulusion system? you would need fusion or fission for that in my opinion but anyway i am open and i will state this again i agree that this would not be the weapon it should be today, With techology being what it is Mecha are not needed, when techology advances to the level it is within the universe this machine hails from assuming it ever does?

I believe this would tbe ideal artillery piece for that world.

:meh: Perhaps people will actually read the agrument now.
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Sanian Confederacy
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Founded: Dec 21, 2011
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Postby Sanian Confederacy » Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:31 pm

Image
Image
The Crusader, in Urban and Desert Camouflage Respectively.


The Crusader is a multi-purpose, high-mobility infantry fighting vehicle, colloquially referred to as a "mech" by humans, standing at between two to three meters (depending on configuration). It is bipedal vehicle piloted by a single operator that is designed to bridge the gap between an infantryman's mobility and an IFV's firepower, with historically variable results. Nearly two centuries of continuous research, testing, and combat have refined the Crusader design from that of an Intolerable War era Golem into a formidable weapons system ideal for urban combat, particularly for building-to-building and other rough-terrain combat.

The currently-employed form of the Crusader mech is a jack-of-all-trades support/assault weapon, used alternately to support infantry in the field, to screen armor, or to launch close-quarters assaults in urban/space environments. Squads of Crusaders are often deployed as hunter-killer teams in urban environments, assaulting and harassing enemy formations and striking at targets of opportunity, and pilots are trained to be flexible, aggressive, and independent.

The Crusader's greatest advantage is also its greatest weakness. As a jack-of-all-trades, it is a master of none and cannot provide the same level of fire support as a dedicated IFV or the assault firepower of a dedicated tank. It is also ill-suited for open field combat; outside of urban environments a Crusader is little more effective than dismounted infantry, and cannot last long in a pitched battle against armor and air cavalry units. As a result, the Crusader is generally restricted to urban engagements; most Crusaders are deployed via cutting edge magical teleportation technology and airborne insertion alongside units of the Confederate Infantry Corps into urban hotspots.

Advanced armatures and limbs allow a Crusader a range of movement only slightly more restricted than that of an infantryman. Pilots are fully-sealed within the Crusader, controlling it via a second set of arm and leg attachments connected to the primary arms and legs. External data is presented in a fully three-dimensional holographic display inside the cockpit, allowing the pilot a full-range of vision and input from multiple sensors, making it difficult to catch a wary pilot off-guard. The mech is powered by a sealed alchemical engine and features a set of thrusters to allow for easier movement.

Like most Sanian designs, the current generation of Crusader possesses a highly modular construction. Weapons systems and other gear can be swapped out quickly and easily within a few minutes thanks to modern parts interchangeability and miniaturization technology. A Crusader can switch from being an anti-armor ambusher with dedicated cannons to an anti-aircraft platform with guided missiles to an assault vehicle with grenade launchers and rapid-fire heavy machine guns in the span of a few hours. This modularity came as a result of ongoing operations in the Badlands of Noranda and the Unincorporated Territories, where the previous generations of Crusaders experienced rapid cases of wear-and-tear and were difficult to repair due to their specialized parts, resulting in "Frankenstein" mechs built from cobbled-together equipment.
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Nua Corda
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Postby Nua Corda » Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:32 pm

The Zeonic States wrote:
The Akasha Colony wrote:Radiation emissions are extremely easy to detect at range. The US and other NATO nations have had nuclear monitoring satellites in orbit for decades, sensitive enough to easily detect even a few-kiloton nuclear detonation. The US Vela Hotel satellite of the famous Vela Incident could detect nuclear detonations via gamma ray, x-ray, and neutron emissions from orbit as small as 2-3 kilotons, and was built with 1960s era technology as a 'small-budget' project. Given the amount of observation being given toward Iran and North Korea for their nuclear programs and the last two decades of the Cold War, you can bet detection has advanced significantly since then.

Even if the Minovsky field does not generate radiation, the readily-observable effects of disruption would allow for relatively easy triangulation by any sensor unit outside the range of the field. Figure out part of the field's geometry and you can calculate the point of origin. Simple math.

Putting even that aside, the fact that you need handwaving of such a blatant magnitude to even attempt to justify a Gundam-type mecha is an indication of how ineffective they would be in any realistic setting. To make just this one model plausible in your head, you have to alter the laws of physics themselves. This isn't a matter of just making technology better, like many claim, this is a matter of changing reality. In which case you might as well make up arbitrary physical rules that make tank treads suddenly less useful, or somehow make more complex machines easier to maintain.

Now, I like Gundam (except Gundam 00). It's one of my favorite franchises, and in less hard SF versions of my nations, they sometimes even make appearances. But it's just not practical once reality sets in.


You do know that sceinctists have discovered a particle that mirrors what the M particle does right?

Alright now that bit of wisdom has been imparted let's assume this particle could be created and thus be emitted by some sort of warfare engine to remove detection, And less also assume that this techology has been common place enough for most Modern militaries employ it.

Alright you following me so far? Good. Listing off the reason why such a machine if it was applied in the techology of its time into actual battlefields using said techology is not HANDWAVING.

I have repeatedly stated yet people continue to ignore apparently that in the current day this would be a major boondoogle assuming it could be done at all and what with the fusion reactor being needed to power the systems and computer equipment and weaponry along with the propulusion system? you would need fusion or fission for that in my opinion but anyway i am open and i will state this again i agree that this would not be the weapon it should be today, With techology being what it is Mecha are not needed, when techology advances to the level it is within the universe this machine hails from assuming it ever does?

I believe this would tbe ideal artillery piece for that world.

:meh: Perhaps people will actually read the agrument now.


And I believe that in a universe where everyone was deathly allergic to sugar, a marshmallow gun would be the best small-arm. See the point people have been trying to make? It's like a windmill crusader: his actions are apropriate to the circumstances, but the circumstances are not real, so he just looks either dangerous or deranged.
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The Zeonic States
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Postby The Zeonic States » Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:36 pm

Nua Corda wrote:
The Zeonic States wrote:
You do know that sceinctists have discovered a particle that mirrors what the M particle does right?

Alright now that bit of wisdom has been imparted let's assume this particle could be created and thus be emitted by some sort of warfare engine to remove detection, And less also assume that this techology has been common place enough for most Modern militaries employ it.

Alright you following me so far? Good. Listing off the reason why such a machine if it was applied in the techology of its time into actual battlefields using said techology is not HANDWAVING.

I have repeatedly stated yet people continue to ignore apparently that in the current day this would be a major boondoogle assuming it could be done at all and what with the fusion reactor being needed to power the systems and computer equipment and weaponry along with the propulusion system? you would need fusion or fission for that in my opinion but anyway i am open and i will state this again i agree that this would not be the weapon it should be today, With techology being what it is Mecha are not needed, when techology advances to the level it is within the universe this machine hails from assuming it ever does?

I believe this would tbe ideal artillery piece for that world.

:meh: Perhaps people will actually read the agrument now.


And I believe that in a universe where everyone was deathly allergic to sugar, a marshmallow gun would be the best small-arm. See the point people have been trying to make? It's like a windmill crusader: his actions are apropriate to the circumstances, but the circumstances are not real, so he just looks either dangerous or deranged.


And that does little to change my position that once techology advances enough this thing will be possible and it will be the best thing to happen in artillery since the Howitzer.
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The Akasha Colony
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Postby The Akasha Colony » Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:56 pm

Do tell about this magical wonder-particle scientists have allegedly developed, otherwise, it's an ungrounded argument. Might as well say N-Jammers are real and those crafty Iranians are just waiting to disable all of our vaunted n00klear weapons.

The problem with the argument now is the classic mech technology argument: when sufficient technology becomes available to build this mech, that same level of technology could be used to build better howitzers. Or tanks. Or sensors. Or ships. Technology does not advance linearly in one direction, with only a single application. The problem with mechs has always been the 'mech' part. They're simply an inefficient method of movement and propulsion, adding massive amounts of complexity for very little to no benefit. Regardless of the design or purpose of the weapons or the EW systems or the defenses, there are much, much, much better ways to provide mobility to a weapons platform.
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Great Holy Prussia
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Postby Great Holy Prussia » Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:59 pm

Mechas are too futuristic for Great Holy Prussia. We are a MT Nation.
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Kesshite
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Postby Kesshite » Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:00 pm

We successfully prototyped a mecha air unit.

Image

But that project never really got off the ground.
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Mitakihara Town
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Founded: Nov 11, 2012
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Postby Mitakihara Town » Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:01 pm

Grand Britannia wrote:
Mitakihara Town wrote:I think Homura has a few in the armoury. I think I've seen one of them somewhere... She said they was clunky and unwieldy, and very vulnerable to anti-air and anti-tank p-p-p-... *checks dictionary* 'projectiles', whatever that meant.

She never even told me where she got them. I wonder why?...

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The Akasha Colony
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Postby The Akasha Colony » Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:05 pm

Mitakihara Town wrote:
Grand Britannia wrote:
You're god...

Vulnerability is for us weak mortals...


*Embarrassed* Not you too...

I don't know about myself, but I don't really want to get anyone hurt by crashing into anything. I haven't even learnt to drive a car. I never got my license.

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We wish your town the best of luck, it seems to have the cityscape of Detroit with the architectural design of Medieval Paris. The welfare program seems to have forgotten at least one student though.
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Kistan
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Postby Kistan » Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:13 pm

Mechs are not advantegeous enough for us to consider making any.
Besides, when you live in a mountainous and forested area, they really suck. We will build them for customers, though.
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The Zeonic States
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Postby The Zeonic States » Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:16 pm

The Akasha Colony wrote:Do tell about this magical wonder-particle scientists have allegedly developed, otherwise, it's an ungrounded argument. Might as well say N-Jammers are real and those crafty Iranians are just waiting to disable all of our vaunted n00klear weapons.

The problem with the argument now is the classic mech technology argument: when sufficient technology becomes available to build this mech, that same level of technology could be used to build better howitzers. Or tanks. Or sensors. Or ships. Technology does not advance linearly in one direction, with only a single application. The problem with mechs has always been the 'mech' part. They're simply an inefficient method of movement and propulsion, adding massive amounts of complexity for very little to no benefit. Regardless of the design or purpose of the weapons or the EW systems or the defenses, there are much, much, much better ways to provide mobility to a weapons platform.


Delevoped? No, It was a by product of erm String theory testing? I believe.

If you want me to cite an exmaple i really wouldn't know where to look i just pulled that bit from the gundam wiki after all, it even said that there was some sort of Particle that in theory could mimic it's effects to some extent, To me? Eventually you can weaponize that, Like a EMP pulse or radiation pulse or clean nuclear weapons or any other just barely out of reach weapon concept.

Now i am not saying that the design could not improved personally i think it ultimately would resemble more of a hovering tank with an artillery piece on it's back then an actual mech by end result but something Along it's baseline concept which i have been pushing this entire debate? I view that as entire acceptable model to begin work with, a long range artillery piece with Medium to short range capabilities through unguided cluster missles or some sort of other goodie.

Personally? I think the thing needs a few things improved but that does not change my opinion that it won't remain a useful weapon to base some concept off of, a floating artillery platform? Perhaps make the gun a bit smaller would be my first guess, the thing has reach and punch but it could probably only carry limited rounds for something so large and reloading it once the magazine is done probably requires industrial machinery or several people or both.

After that? the Armor, steel armor? That is a no no, Perhaps make it smaller but but definately use a better material then ultra dense high tensil steel.

Anyway after a few improvements are made to make the thing workable? Assuming it could hold a generator to expell those particles? I say we got an invisible sniper unless if the particle cannot be generator by something that would fit in the Mecha or cost constraints or etc in that case then it would need to be reworked to a whole nother level if not abandoned however until that particle is disproved by sceince i maintain that one day M-Particles will be involved in warfare.
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Samozaryadnyastan
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Postby Samozaryadnyastan » Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:49 am

SquareDisc City wrote:
Samozaryadnyastan wrote:Have you seen how long ASIMO takes just to consider walking up or down a normal set of stairs?
I would be wary of this kind of argument - X is worse than Y now, so X will be worse than Y in the future. It's one that would have predicted firearms wouldn't completely displace longbows, or that analog computers would remain the tool of choice for many engineering problems. Looking from now to the future, it predicts that you won't be using laser or particle-beam weaponry, when many FT RPers do.

The thing is, you see, some things just always will be worse than others.
If you have to spend billions of dollars developing a computer system that can balance several tonnes of weapon and armour on one leg, then be able to incorporate that into motion, then into a semblance of all-terrain capability - why bother?

Also, fyi, lasers and DEWs will always make worse offensive weapons than guided missiles or kinetic weapons. They have a future in counter-sniper warfare, however (as a blinding laser) and counter-munition batteries. They're already used as guidance and counter-sensor equipment.
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Samozaryadnyastan
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Postby Samozaryadnyastan » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:16 am

The Zeonic States wrote:
Nua Corda wrote:

At that point you're just handwaving and the argument disappears.


Did you read the blurb about The Minovsky Particle?

This thing can generate them?

It's perfection for long and medium range artillery support and remote destruction of hardened targets.

It cannot?

It should never be constructed.

That simple, LIke i said its as good or bad as the tech of the day dictates

Your source was the Gundam wiki.
You lost, instantly.
The Zeonic States wrote:
Nua Corda wrote:
And I believe that in a universe where everyone was deathly allergic to sugar, a marshmallow gun would be the best small-arm. See the point people have been trying to make? It's like a windmill crusader: his actions are apropriate to the circumstances, but the circumstances are not real, so he just looks either dangerous or deranged.


And that does little to change my position that once techology advances enough this thing will be possible and it will be the best thing to happen in artillery since the Howitzer.

Doesn't change the fact that your opinion is objectively wrong.
Last edited by Samozaryadnyastan on Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Pastafarian
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Founded: Oct 12, 2012
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Postby Pastafarian » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:22 am

Giant robots are treated the same as normal, human citizens.
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TechTown
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Postby TechTown » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:42 am

Apparently uniquely in the NSverse; TechTown is a mech-user, but deploys dozens of meter-high mecha Drones as swarms for combat purposes. As opposed to the singular heavy weapon platforms akin to tanks used by the majority of Nations.

We do technically have a piloted combat Mech-Drone. One. And that's just used in experiments for the most part.. still only 1 meter tall, excluding some additional shielding plates.
I would say more, but I've posted stuff twice now on these forums. And I have a whole factbook dedicated to the adorable unfeeling chunks of tin and cheap plastic.

OOC, even more so: And to anyone arguing about the feasibility of mecha, of COURSE they're impractical -except in the TTGL universe-, they're just designed to look cool. There's a reason why nobody's ever seriously looked into this, why walking combat bots are the joke entries into shows like Robot Wars where a simple box with good traction and power is a serious contender, with not a weapon to it's name.
It's rule of cool, and a chance to mess around. Tanks are superior, that's plain to see. Stop stomping on our mecha sandcastles at the metaphorical beach and just let us make fantasies of towering spires and robo-suits duking it out with rocket-powered fists of steel.

...er, that's not to say don't criticise them, some of them deserve it. (Probably mine.) But there's a certain amount of "Well, we ARE discussing mecha here. It's kind of pointless to take that seriously" going on.
Last edited by TechTown on Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:01 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Nua Corda
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Postby Nua Corda » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:48 am

The Zeonic States wrote:
Nua Corda wrote:
And I believe that in a universe where everyone was deathly allergic to sugar, a marshmallow gun would be the best small-arm. See the point people have been trying to make? It's like a windmill crusader: his actions are apropriate to the circumstances, but the circumstances are not real, so he just looks either dangerous or deranged.


And that does little to change my position that once techology advances enough this thing will be possible and it will be the best thing to happen in artillery since the Howitzer.


K' let's try this:

When I invent a particle that creates an explosion ten times the size of a hydrogen bomb when you drop in in water and put it in a plasma-sheathed shell fired from a 5000mm cannon that can teleport, it will be the best thing to happen to artillery since the howitzer.

Ridiculous, right?
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America01
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Postby America01 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:57 am

OBAMA

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TechTown
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Postby TechTown » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:59 am

America01 wrote:OBAMA

Image
THIS EXPLAINS EVERYTHING
TechTown would like to remind other Nation representatives that we are currently trading in Virtual creation.
Destruction gains little, trading allows growth.

TechTown is grateful for the non-discharging of weapons at this Nation.
PMT level, AI and a few somewhat futuristic inventions. No FTL/teleportation however.
Entire Nation is an orbiting "Skycraft", with a virtual world inside for the AI citizenry.
Check out my Factbook for tons of stuff I wrote about it if you're interested! Just click here!

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Nua Corda
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Postby Nua Corda » Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:02 am

America01 wrote:OBAMA


Y U Spam Thread?
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The Victorian Empire
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Postby The Victorian Empire » Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:07 am

Quite popular in our media.

The Government has also seen interest in possible use of 'mechs' in the near future.
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SquareDisc City
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Postby SquareDisc City » Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:30 am

Samozaryadnyastan wrote:The thing is, you see, some things just always will be worse than others.
If you have to spend billions of dollars developing a computer system that can balance several tonnes of weapon and armour on one leg, then be able to incorporate that into motion, then into a semblance of all-terrain capability - why bother?
Well, if said computer system has already been developed for other purposes then it won't cost billions of dollars to adapt it to combat mechs. (And there are plenty of possible uses of walking robots besides tank-sized combat mechas.)

Also, fyi, lasers and DEWs will always make worse offensive weapons than guided missiles or kinetic weapons.
Since this is badly off-topic, I'm taking it to the argument thread in the II forum.
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Nua Corda
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Postby Nua Corda » Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:37 am

SquareDisc City wrote:
Samozaryadnyastan wrote:The thing is, you see, some things just always will be worse than others.
If you have to spend billions of dollars developing a computer system that can balance several tonnes of weapon and armour on one leg, then be able to incorporate that into motion, then into a semblance of all-terrain capability - why bother?
Well, if said computer system has already been developed for other purposes then it won't cost billions of dollars to adapt it to combat mechs. (And there are plenty of possible uses of walking robots besides tank-sized combat mechas.)


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Postby SquareDisc City » Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:49 am

Domestic robots, where appearance is just as important as functionality; sure, something on tracks might work just as well and be cheaper, but that won't mean the cute Asimo 7 doesn't sell.

Droid soldiers. If you can build a machine that can go anywhere and do anything a human infantryman can, then for a country averse to its soldiers dying (as most western countries are today) that's a big advantage. A humanoid robot might or might not be the best way to do that, but it's one way that we're certain would work if you accept the axiom that I do that a machine can replicate a human (since ultimately they're both made of the same particles following the same laws of physics).

Research projects. Yeah, basically curiosities, but it's still engineering work being done.
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Yes Im Biop
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Postby Yes Im Biop » Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:54 am

No Mech's. Powered exo suites are employed for a varsity of military and manufacturing uses.
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Genesis Era
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Postby Genesis Era » Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:55 am

Near non-existent. Limited to domestic use only. Attempts to utilise mechas in military contexts led to painful demonstration of the square cube law when said mecha tried walking and landed cockpit first onto the floor.

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