Infantry Discussion Thread 10: Shovel Edition [NO FWORDS]

[Fordorsia]

Can my bleach shots be orange flavour

[Gallia-]

draino shots are manlier

all the brain damage of bleach with added flesh melting

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

can I do my bleach shots off of san's tummy?

[Fordorsia]

Nirv the party girl

[Puzikas]

Someone asked me to sperg about the DP machine gun so here we go.

The DP Machine Gun is the stark contrast of Machine Gun doctrine in WWII. It was employed neither like the American or British employment of Machine Rifles nor the German employment of Universal Machineguns. It did not have a fire and manuver element in the purest sense nor did it have the close support role of the Machine Rifle.

The DP was issued to, on paper, every Soviet Infantry squad. In reality this was not the case but the DP could be found virtually always at two per Platoon at minimum.

The DPs employment is a complicated best. Its 47 round pan gives it considerably more ability than its Machine Rifle contemporary but less than a belt fed system. It's loaded mass puts it just past its contemporary Allied equivilents. It's a big beast, and that's something that's abundantly apparently the moment you hoist it to your shoulder.

The DP is intended for a semi-static employment role. Never having been intended to fill a walking or marching fire role like the BAR or BREN, it was similarly never intended to suppress enemy forces at distance while the Infantry closed for attack like the MG-34 or MG-42 No, the DP was intended to manuver with the Infantry unit, stop, lay down suppressing fire, and then advance when Infantry units began engaging to provide them with a closer base of fire. It's ability to fire from the hip is, at best, dubious. In a standing position, a reasonably strong individual or a sufficiently angered man with the anger of the motherland burning in his heart will be able to place rounds to target with a degree of competence.

This tactic was not an outgrowth of its original tactic of static fire, a role that was always intended to be done with the Maxim and later SG-43. It was always intended, it seems, to be employed in this dynamic role. The Soviets made more use of low level automatic weapons that were effective at nominal combat ranges than any other country of the war due to the mass issue of the PPSh-41 and PPS-43, which allowed the DP to be a more flexible force on the battlefeild. The DP was effective to 1 kilometer in theory, but in practice more was able to suppress area targets to 800m. The Machine Gun would supress alone (2 men, ammo bearer and Gunner, total of 517 rounds) as the Infantry manuvers to position to fire, wherein the Machine Gun would then manuver closer and engage in close battle with the Infantry. The advent of the PPSh-41 and PPS-43 augmented Soviet close fire so greatly that it became unnecessary at times for the DP to actually close in, instead working to keep the area suppressed at closer ranges to provide more accurate fire as the SMGs closed to position.

The DP is a fucking monster of a Machine Gun. I can't stress this enough, at 11.87 kilos loaded and 1.25 meters long, the DP-28 will make you feel like a manlet. Even my herculean Platoon PK gunner had found the DP a monster. Yet it is a gentle giant, with a low fire rate and a gentle recoil. Shoulder firing the beast, you can walk rounds onto target easily and a four or five round burst is accomplishable. The Manual of arms tells you to not fire more than three in the standing position. In prone, a long sustained burst allows you to beat an area with ease, or walk rounds to a target, and then drop a pair or triplet on it.

The DP has a grip saftey that requires a bit of an unusual grip, which really adds this providence to its static employment roots. It WANTS you to hold it this way, and its easier to hold it this way if you're not running around trying to shoot fascists at 20 meters. It wants you to support it and shoot fascists with deliberation.

The 47 round pan gives the DP less fire support in the static role than other belt weapons, but looking at the Soviet manual of arms there was no reason for the DP to be used in this role: The Maxim was the prime provider of this fire support. The dynamic nature of the Soviet Infantry Company did not necessitate the use of the DP in that role. Its pan loading and magazine capacity feel the idea it's intended for some sort of mobility, as its reletivly quick to reload the weapon. It's a gigantic pain to load the magazines but actually reloading the weapon is easier than a belt and really on par with any box to a degree, if a bit clumsy.

In term of actual firing of the weapon, the DP is a bit of a tank. It will chew through a lot and functions quite well when operated correctly. It's overheating issues were of issue due to the placement of the recoil spring, but generally as long as the gunner was trained and operated the weapon within its parameters the overheating went away. The pans motion is unusual to observe but hardly an issue. The sights are easy and clear. The system is genuinely interesting to use, and is quite versatile.

In summary the DP fits the old adage "Jack of all trades, Master of None". It's an unusual outgrowth augmented by unusual usage. Its neither a Machine Rifle nor a Machine Gub-Its something in-between.

[Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502]

Hey Puz: How would you remove one of these from the body?

Lead bullets launched from a sling were known to be very, very dangerous provided there was a good slinger. Xenophon records the Persians using slingers that threw bullets the size of one's fist, probably able to crush many helmets of the day; they were greatly outmatched, however, by Rhodian slingers who could throw three times as far with pinpoint accuracy. Supposedly Roman surgeons had special foreceps developed specifically to remove bullets from a body.

Not super related, but fun fact: The Greeks were the first to theorize that objects moving through the air at high speeds heated up. They found this because lead bullets were often deformed after impact against solid objects(although I'm certain they also knew lead was a pretty soft metal). Now, obviously even Rhodian slingers couldn't throw that fast, but the Greeks were still right. Just for the wrong reasons.

Based on how surgeons in the British Civil War extracted bullets, there are a couple of different solutions. You could have something like a forceps, but with spoons on the end designed to surround the projectile. This design was also used in the medieval period by some doctors to remove detached arrow heads.

Alternatively, there's the possibility of using a corkscrew style arrangement to drill into the lead projectile and extract it that way. Surgeons in the ECW had quite fine and delicate tools for this, but you could do it with less sophisticated tools (not that the Greeks were much less sophisticated in their surgical equipment).

Neat-o.

Post-surgical care would probably consist of what? Dressing the wound and slathering it in honey? Honey has good antibacterial properties and might also aid in keeping further infections out, although I would have no idea as to that. I know I've posted this here before, and if the wounds detailed that Alexander received are at all representative of wounds the average soldier in Alexander's time might face, it suggests at least there was a high level of medical knowledge even three hundred years before Christ, of course only if you could afford it.

That brings up another question: Who decided whether soldiers get medical care after a battle? I assume in a professional army like the Romans or some Greeks, medical care for wounds received in battle might be free(you're not likely to be reaching for coin purses if you have an arrow sticking out of your abdomen), but for the common riffraff in medieval armies or whatever levies have been drawn up, might they have to just make do with whatever medical skill a good friend had picked up? Or might they have access to good medical care, if a good-hearted knight might be willing to pay a hired surgeon to go around chopping off limbs and stuff?

[Purpelia]

Someone asked me to sperg about the DP machine gun so here we go.

Infinite thanks.

[Western Pacific Territories]

Puz question. Back in the Crimea War period of time you'd often see doctors hack people's legs off with saws and blades cleaned in a bowl of water, which most likely was already stained red with other people's blood. Assuming some of the blood from that bowl enters the patients blood system during the operation, and that the two blood types are different and do not react well to each other, what could the medical consequences be?

[Husseinarti]

can I do my bleach shots off of san's tummy?

;))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[Sediczja]

Puz question. Back in the Crimea War period of time you'd often see doctors hack people's legs off with saws and blades cleaned in a bowl of water, which most likely was already stained red with other people's blood. Assuming some of the blood from that bowl enters the patients blood system during the operation, and that the two blood types are different and do not react well to each other, what could the medical consequences be?

Your blood foams up and you die like a slug, obviously.

[Spirit of Hope]

I mean the bigger threat from the surgeons not properly washing the blade was infection, both because the blade probably had stuff on it already, and after amputating a couple of limbs it is definitely going to have some nice diseases on it.

I imagine that there would be very little transfer of blood between patients.

[Gallia-]

The DP is intended for a semi-static employment role. Never having been intended to fill a walking or marching fire role like the BAR or BREN, it was similarly never intended to suppress enemy forces at distance while the Infantry closed for attack like the MG-34 or MG-42 No, the DP was intended to manuver with the Infantry unit, stop, lay down suppressing fire, and then advance when Infantry units began engaging to provide them with a closer base of fire.

soviet union is true pioneers blazing the trail of machine gun tactics ;-;

[Purpelia]

Do modern IFV's have old style mechanical dashboards or do they like have a TV screen with the stuff projected like on modern expensive cars?

[Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502]

In WWII, how effective was the Maxim compared to its contemporaries?

[Aqizithiuda]

The maximum energy used in the testing of a stab-proof vest in the UK is 64 joules. According to Christopher Matthew in An Invincible Beast, the replica sarissa he tested generated an energy of 110 joules. Also some rather large diameter mail resisted penetration by energies of up to 70 joules. Had it been more in line with typical medieval mail (ID roughly 6mm), the lancet wouldn't have penetrated either.

Add to this the fact that replica mail made by Erik Schmid and tested by Alan Williams required more than 200 joules of energy to be penetrated by blade, lance and arrows, and we see that mail is not as weak as your think (mind you, the original mail didn't hold up so well, but it did prevent the arrow from penetrating at 80j IIRC, and with a linen backing it required 120j for total penetration).

(sorry Schwere, I'll reply to your reply when I get back to work. Chasing down the sources of all this info for Ford ate up my time this morning).

Is the force requirement for each ring, or for several? Seems like it would depend heavily on how many rings the blade has to break before it penetrates an acceptable amount.

No problem, so long as Ford ends up embarrassed.

Have I been sleep-shitting in your coffee every morning the past few weeks or something?

Each ring, probably, although they all reinforce each other and you can expect the connected rings to take some of the energy.

Based on how surgeons in the British Civil War extracted bullets, there are a couple of different solutions. You could have something like a forceps, but with spoons on the end designed to surround the projectile. This design was also used in the medieval period by some doctors to remove detached arrow heads.

Alternatively, there's the possibility of using a corkscrew style arrangement to drill into the lead projectile and extract it that way. Surgeons in the ECW had quite fine and delicate tools for this, but you could do it with less sophisticated tools (not that the Greeks were much less sophisticated in their surgical equipment).

Seriously considering it as a method of academic interest to discuss this:

How large were these, generally? What sort of velocities were achievable? We're they known to be heated, toxified, or otherwise? What sort of mass were they? All Lead, or a sort of pig mixture of metals?

Kazarogkai has given a pretty good answer re:dimensions, though I will note that some were as light as 18g. Velocity was likely between 45 and 55 m/s for a 28-30g projdctile, depending on the skill of the user.

Clay projectiles were occasionally heated in the hopes of setting thatch alight, but lead bullets don't seem to have been heated at all. The bullets, although I haven't found an analysis of them, were probably pure lead with little in the way of contaminants.

Based on how surgeons in the British Civil War extracted bullets, there are a couple of different solutions. You could have something like a forceps, but with spoons on the end designed to surround the projectile. This design was also used in the medieval period by some doctors to remove detached arrow heads.

Alternatively, there's the possibility of using a corkscrew style arrangement to drill into the lead projectile and extract it that way. Surgeons in the ECW had quite fine and delicate tools for this, but you could do it with less sophisticated tools (not that the Greeks were much less sophisticated in their surgical equipment).

Neat-o.

Post-surgical care would probably consist of what? Dressing the wound and slathering it in honey? Honey has good antibacterial properties and might also aid in keeping further infections out, although I would have no idea as to that. I know I've posted this here before, and if the wounds detailed that Alexander received are at all representative of wounds the average soldier in Alexander's time might face, it suggests at least there was a high level of medical knowledge even three hundred years before Christ, of course only if you could afford it.

That brings up another question: Who decided whether soldiers get medical care after a battle? I assume in a professional army like the Romans or some Greeks, medical care for wounds received in battle might be free(you're not likely to be reaching for coin purses if you have an arrow sticking out of your abdomen), but for the common riffraff in medieval armies or whatever levies have been drawn up, might they have to just make do with whatever medical skill a good friend had picked up? Or might they have access to good medical care, if a good-hearted knight might be willing to pay a hired surgeon to go around chopping off limbs and stuff?

Likely the wound would have been washed with wine or vinegar and then possibly slathered with honey or some form of poultice. The wound would have been left open and allowed to heal from the bottom up, as per the theories of the time (and also because suturing a dirty wound closed tended to kill patients).

In general, there doesn't seem to have been much in the way of medical professionals attached to armies right up until the end of the medieval period. There's an article somewhere which suggests that properly qualified surgeons were a rare thing on the battlefield even in Greek and Roman times, with most soldiers being responsible for their own care. Some doubtless were better at it than others and so became unofficial surgeons, and there would have been access to local equivalents, however primitive or untrained. The Byzantines had a system of medics to remove wounded horsemen from the field of battle for treatment and I've heard, although not yet found the source, that their armies ideally had one surgeon for every 240 men.

Medieval armies weren't known to have too many surgeons along officially, although some retinues might have a surgeon or two directly attached to them and you occasionally find reference to surgeons actually serving as soldiers (well, okay, only one reference). The Knight Orders were all fairly well trained in field surgery, the Hospitallers especially, and there's some evidence to suggest that other knights had some experience as well, or at least knew the theory. Probably there were barber-surgeons who went with the army on-spec, doing a trade in hairdressing during the good times and tending to wounds after the battle, charging whatever they thought they could get away with charging.

Edit: Found the article. See also here (from page 30).

[Fordorsia]

Dumb ancient armies didn't have their own Fordorsian Medical legions : )

[Sevvania]

Someone asked me to sperg about the DP machine gun so here we go.

TIL the DP is not a Machine Gub.

Was good read though, I'd never really thought much about the doctrinal reasons for it being the way it is.

[Puzikas]

Puz question. Back in the Crimea War period of time you'd often see doctors hack people's legs off with saws and blades cleaned in a bowl of water, which most likely was already stained red with other people's blood. Assuming some of the blood from that bowl enters the patients blood system during the operation, and that the two blood types are different and do not react well to each other, what could the medical consequences be?

Could never happen in significant enough volume.

Your blood foams up and you die like a slug, obviously.

Best answer

soviet union is true pioneers blazing the trail of machine gun tactics ;-;

Too bad RPD didn't get its glory in WWII or you could have seen coolest tactics for coolest LMG ;-;

In WWII, how effective was the Maxim compared to its contemporaries?

Yes.

Kazarogkai has given a pretty good answer re:dimensions, though I will note that some were as light as 18g. Velocity was likely between 45 and 55 m/s for a 28-30g projdctile, depending on the skill of the user.

[/quote]

Alright then, I'll get on that later.

[Sediczja]

Speaking of LMGs, rough WiP of what's essentially a DPM in 8 milimemer

Mostly based on this thing. Thinking it'll be my early-20th-century LMG/AR until it's replaced by that notUK59FNMAG thing I drew ages ago.

[Husseinarti]

In WWII, how effective was the Maxim compared to its contemporaries?

It worked.

Water-cool heavy MGs stayed into the 1950s, when means of sustained fire without needing a 100+lb water jacketed beast was available. A few also got put on tanks and armored cars.

[Gallia-]

soviet union is true pioneers blazing the trail of machine gun tactics ;-;

Too bad RPD didn't get its glory in WWII or you could have seen coolest tactics for coolest LMG ;-;

marching fire more like running fire?

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

Too bad RPD didn't get its glory in WWII or you could have seen coolest tactics for coolest LMG ;-;

marching fire more like running fire?

something something all that matters is volume of fire and how fast you move

[Fordorsia]

In WWII, how effective was the Maxim compared to its contemporaries?

It worked.

Water-cool heavy MGs stayed into the 1950s, when means of sustained fire without needing a 100+lb water jacketed beast was available. A few also got put on tanks and armored cars.

Is a water jacket really that much more effective than simply having a much, much thicker barrel, maybe with cooling fins for good measure? I can't imagine the answer being yes, since a barrel would be super thick and long lasting long before it came close to matching the added weight of a full water jacket.

[Gallia-]

ultimate infantryman

[Fordorsia]

*cavalryman