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by Radicchio » Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:19 am
by Gallan Systems » Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:21 am
You can't continuously reduce the former to increase the latter.
Otherwise every LMG in the world would fire .22 short.
by Tule » Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:28 am
Gallan Systems wrote:No, that's the fear of being hit.
It doesn't really work like that.
.22 Short, again obviously, would make a poor competitor to something like 5,45mm or 5,56mm. Mass and recoil aren't determining factors in volume of fire.
by Spirit of Hope » Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:38 am
Radicchio wrote:I am RPing an island nation where jungle combat, heavy forestation, general cover. Are major factors. Not trying to build an army ti conquor the world here, just to be able and hold onto what i have got.
To this end I am thinking of using shotguns as a primary service weapon.
Thoughts?
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by New Visegrad » Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:42 am
by Azurg » Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:44 am
Tule wrote:And why do you fear being hit?
It's a bit of an oversimplification, but suppression relies on the enemy fearing getting hit, which = Volume of fire x Consequences of getting hit.
No disagreement there.
by Gallan Systems » Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:55 am
It doesn't really work like that.
It's a bit of an oversimplification, but suppression relies on the enemy fearing getting hit, which = Volume of fire x Consequences of getting hit.
by Kouralia » Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:13 am
Radicchio wrote:I am RPing an island nation where jungle combat, heavy forestation, general cover. Are major factors. Not trying to build an army ti conquor the world here, just to be able and hold onto what i have got.
To this end I am thinking of using shotguns as a primary service weapon.
Thoughts?
by Tule » Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:32 am
Gallan Systems wrote:Tule wrote:And why do you fear being hit?
So you are suggesting that you would not at all be worried about being shot by a cartridge that is very small when placed on a table? This as opposed to one that is rather large?It's a bit of an oversimplification, but suppression relies on the enemy fearing getting hit, which = Volume of fire x Consequences of getting hit.
One assumes that when shooting at people, you generally use cartridges that are dangerous to people, which is all of them. Ergo, being shot at is scary, and any kind of bullet is dangerous. If you are being shot at by more bullets than you are putting out, you have been suppressed. This can result from more people than you shooting at you, people with better guns shooting at you (compare M249 to BAR, or M16 to M1903), better trained or experienced people shooting at you, etc.
There is a reason that small unit firefights do not result in large numbers of casualties or outright annihilation. It isn't because cartridges have inadequate terminal effects and Ahmed the Terminator walks around looking like Swiss cheese stuffed with tomato paste.
You already know the reason, you're just viewing it wrong tbh.
by Gallan Systems » Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:35 am
Tule wrote:Gallan Systems wrote:
So you are suggesting that you would not at all be worried about being shot by a cartridge that is very small when placed on a table? This as opposed to one that is rather large?
One assumes that when shooting at people, you generally use cartridges that are dangerous to people, which is all of them. Ergo, being shot at is scary, and any kind of bullet is dangerous. If you are being shot at by more bullets than you are putting out, you have been suppressed. This can result from more people than you shooting at you, people with better guns shooting at you (compare M249 to BAR, or M16 to M1903), better trained or experienced people shooting at you, etc.
There is a reason that small unit firefights do not result in large numbers of casualties or outright annihilation. It isn't because cartridges have inadequate terminal effects and Ahmed the Terminator walks around looking like Swiss cheese stuffed with tomato paste.
You already know the reason, you're just viewing it wrong tbh.
Small cartridges can absolutely be dangerous enough. That's why the US Army has gone from the .45-70 to the .30-06 to the 5.56.
The 5.56 is fine, I've defended it for years. So is the 5.45.
But you can't keep making smaller and smaller cartridges, eventually you will in fact end up with Ahmed the Terminator walking around looking like Swiss cheese stuffed with tomato paste. Or at least you'll end up with enemy soldiers taking greater risks and fewer incapacitating injuries. A 2 mm hole through the soft tissues of the arm or leg won't need more than a band aid.
by Tule » Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:36 am
Gallan Systems wrote:Tule wrote:
Small cartridges can absolutely be dangerous enough. That's why the US Army has gone from the .45-70 to the .30-06 to the 5.56.
The 5.56 is fine, I've defended it for years. So is the 5.45.
But you can't keep making smaller and smaller cartridges, eventually you will in fact end up with Ahmed the Terminator walking around looking like Swiss cheese stuffed with tomato paste. Or at least you'll end up with enemy soldiers taking greater risks and fewer incapacitating injuries. A 2 mm hole through the soft tissues of the arm or leg won't need more than a band aid.
Thankfully 4,5mm is twice and a quarter more than 2mm!
by Gallan Systems » Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:47 am
by Tule » Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:12 am
Gallan Systems wrote:Tule wrote:
Point taken.
The problem with microcalibers is that as you get smaller and lighter cartridges, they begin to be affected more by wind (drag) and other external ballistics factors downrange, which is why 4,5mm MKR was considered silly for its time. The solution to the problem of a smaller bullet was the idea that you could have a cheap, mono-metal brass bullet in a short case being competitive to something more traditional like lead core 5,56mm. It was a bit silly, sort of like how caseless ammunition was a bit silly. Both required significant investments in quality control for marginal gains, as discovered, and no one really pursued either.
by Purpelia » Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:15 am
Tule wrote:Isn't there a problem with small caliber bullets not making a loud enough supersonic crack to suppress adequately as well? I wish I remembered the source.
by Nachmere » Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:54 am
Purpelia wrote:Tule wrote:Isn't there a problem with small caliber bullets not making a loud enough supersonic crack to suppress adequately as well? I wish I remembered the source.
My admittedly uneducated guess is that the crack they make when they hit the ground close to you, wall behind you etc. is more than enough to make you keep your head down regardless.
by Aqizithiuda » Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:00 pm
The Archangel Conglomerate wrote:Estovnia wrote:Swap 6mm GPC with 7mm GPC, and you've got my line of thinking atm.
Replace both with 8mm Mauser and you've about got me.Aqizithiuda wrote:Get thee behind me, Arch!
*diabolical laughter*Well, it's too small for the calculated BC to be guaranteed accurate,
It's ,07mm smaller than the minimum any inaccuracies would be negligible at best. That said, I've redone it as a 4,6mm bullet
Ignoring the fact that I'd already planned to.the twist rate is very tight,
It could be worse. Too, it falls within the 1:5 L/D ratio.and the design lacks the qualities that made the 4.5x26mmR reportedly very terminally effective.
A long nose and being made of solid brass? Well, I've got a long-ish nose. . . and that's about it.
So. . . differences between the MKR and NAVO cartridges is negligible at close range, and 7,62x39mm ROFLStomps all. Correct?
Also,Puzikas wrote:
I do too, actually.
Tule wrote:Gallan Systems wrote:
The problem with microcalibers is that as you get smaller and lighter cartridges, they begin to be affected more by wind (drag) and other external ballistics factors downrange, which is why 4,5mm MKR was considered silly for its time. The solution to the problem of a smaller bullet was the idea that you could have a cheap, mono-metal brass bullet in a short case being competitive to something more traditional like lead core 5,56mm. It was a bit silly, sort of like how caseless ammunition was a bit silly. Both required significant investments in quality control for marginal gains, as discovered, and no one really pursued either.
Isn't there a problem with small caliber bullets not making a loud enough supersonic crack to suppress adequately as well? I wish I remembered the source.
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Hellraiser-Army wrote:and clearly I am surrounded by idiots who never looked at a blueprint before...
by The Archangel Conglomerate » Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:24 pm
Aqizithiuda wrote:Your projectile's ogive is only 55.55% of it's length, while the 4.5x26mmR's projectile has a nose 75% of it's total length. The ogive radii are different too.
Nirvash Type TheEND wrote:For want of lances, the heavy equipment never reached the field.
For want of heavy equipment the platoons FOs could direct no HMGs.
For want of HMGs, the Archians had to rely on shitty fucking microcalibers.
For want of real weapons, they lost the war.
by Fordorsia » Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:32 pm
San-Silvacian wrote:Forgot to take off my Rhodie shorts when I went to sleep.
Woke up in bitches and enemy combatants.
Crookfur wrote:Speak for yourself, Crookfur infantry enjoy the sheer uber high speed low drag operator nature of their tactical woad
Spreewerke wrote:One of our employees ate a raw kidney and a raw liver and the only powers he gained was the ability to summon a massive hospital bill.
Premislyd wrote:This is probably the best thing somebody has ever spammed.
Puzikas wrote:That joke was so dark it has to smile to be seen at night.
by Padnak » Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:43 pm
Radicchio wrote:I am RPing an island nation where jungle combat, heavy forestation, general cover. Are major factors. Not trying to build an army ti conquor the world here, just to be able and hold onto what i have got.
To this end I am thinking of using shotguns as a primary service weapon.
Thoughts?
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Bezombia wrote:It was about this time that Padnak slowly realized that the thread he thought was about gaming was, in fact, an eight story tall crustacean from the protozoic era.
Husseinarti wrote:Powered Borscht.
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The Kievan People wrote:As usual, this is Padnak's fault, but we need to move on.
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by Aqizithiuda » Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:44 pm
The Archangel Conglomerate wrote:Aqizithiuda wrote:Your projectile's ogive is only 55.55% of it's length, while the 4.5x26mmR's projectile has a nose 75% of it's total length. The ogive radii are different too.
And still it maintains a boat tail and body? Cripes. I have bad experiences playing with ogive radii.
Have you got a sheet or are you estimating?
Nationstatelandsville wrote:I liked the prostitute - never quote me on that.
Puzikas wrote:This is beyond condom on toes. This is full on Bra-on-balls.
Puzikas wrote:Im not cheep-You can quote me on that.
Hellraiser-Army wrote:and clearly I am surrounded by idiots who never looked at a blueprint before...
by Fordorsia » Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:46 pm
Padnak wrote:Radicchio wrote:I am RPing an island nation where jungle combat, heavy forestation, general cover. Are major factors. Not trying to build an army ti conquor the world here, just to be able and hold onto what i have got.
To this end I am thinking of using shotguns as a primary service weapon.
Thoughts?
why hello there
In jungle combat being able to penetrate dense cover is very important, so this basically rules out shotguns as a viable service weapon. Battle rifles would be a good idea, although lugging around one and its ammunition in the heat of a jungle wouldn't be that fun of a time. Assault rifles are most likely the way to go
or if you're a hardcore mofo, just give everyone FALs and rhodie shorts
San-Silvacian wrote:Forgot to take off my Rhodie shorts when I went to sleep.
Woke up in bitches and enemy combatants.
Crookfur wrote:Speak for yourself, Crookfur infantry enjoy the sheer uber high speed low drag operator nature of their tactical woad
Spreewerke wrote:One of our employees ate a raw kidney and a raw liver and the only powers he gained was the ability to summon a massive hospital bill.
Premislyd wrote:This is probably the best thing somebody has ever spammed.
Puzikas wrote:That joke was so dark it has to smile to be seen at night.
by Purpelia » Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:49 pm
Fordorsia wrote:I'm not sure shorts, especially Rhodie shorts, are the best thing to wear in a jungle.
by Fordorsia » Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:56 pm
San-Silvacian wrote:Forgot to take off my Rhodie shorts when I went to sleep.
Woke up in bitches and enemy combatants.
Crookfur wrote:Speak for yourself, Crookfur infantry enjoy the sheer uber high speed low drag operator nature of their tactical woad
Spreewerke wrote:One of our employees ate a raw kidney and a raw liver and the only powers he gained was the ability to summon a massive hospital bill.
Premislyd wrote:This is probably the best thing somebody has ever spammed.
Puzikas wrote:That joke was so dark it has to smile to be seen at night.
by Purpelia » Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:01 pm
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