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What does "Libertarian" mean to you?

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The Congregationists
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What does "Libertarian" mean to you?

Postby The Congregationists » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:40 pm

Over in the "what does progressive mean to you " thread, I suggested that "libertarian" is turning into a rebranding of "conservative" so that center-right political views can have a chance at appealing to people it would not otherwise - the internet generation. That is by no means the only applicable definition nor is it (in my opinion) the correct one, but that seems to be what's happening with the word 'libertarian.' It prompted the following reply:

Meryuma wrote:1. Libertarianism isn't innately right-wing. Is the Center for a Stateless Society right-wing? Is the Alliance of the Libertarian Left right-wing?
2. Modern libertarianism started in the 60s with Murray Rothbard. It emerged from a mixture of classical liberalism, Austrian economics, and individualist anarchism. It is completely separate from conservatism, with different values, goals, inspirations, and origins.
3. Libertarians are against fundie moralism and war, period. It's not in the terminology, but inherent in libertarian principles, which I must remind you are very different then conservative ones. No libertarians want to impose "family values" through legislation. No libertarians want to
4. Some libertarians ally with conservatives, or hold socially conservative views. Other libertarians ally with traditional leftists and have progressive social views. Modern conservatives (who often bear little resemblance to the classical conservative tradition) usually do.
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So how would you define "libertarian" then? I'll weigh in momentarily, but first let's hear from you NSG.
•Criticism of sentimental love, marriage, sex, religion, and rituals.
•Valuing reason over emotion and imagination
•Ironic, indirect, and impersonal (objective) representation of ideas.
•Uncompromising criticism of romantic illusions.
•Advocacy of pragmatism and disapproval of idealism and ideology.
•Especially vehement opposition to neo-liberalism, social democracy, communism, libertarianism and feminism.
•Satirisation of irrational and whimsical attitudes of the so-called creative class.
•Criticism of social, political, cultural, and moral customs and manners of the contemporary society.

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Ashmoria
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Postby Ashmoria » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:40 pm

to me it means delusional people who think that a country of 300million+ people can have a small government.
whatever

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Jakaragua
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Postby Jakaragua » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:42 pm

The problem with capital L Libertarianism is that they don't understand that "fiscal liberty" is a contradiction in philosophy. Laissez-faire capitalism liberates the wealthy and enslaves the poor. You cannot be free in a system that forces people to choose wage labor or starvation.

When people talk about being "socially liberal" and "fiscally conservative" remember that while it's important to support gay rights, and we shouldn't put people in jail for smoking reefer, most social repression comes from economics anyway. Folks who don't understand that, just don't understand society period.
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Meryuma
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Postby Meryuma » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:44 pm

I'd say that libertarianism is complete opposition to any form of coercion by others.

Ashmoria wrote:to me it means delusional people who think that a country of 300million+ people can have a small government.


:palm: Not all libertarians believe in "small government". Personally, I think that "small government" is for people who are afraid of anarchy or don't know what it is, as well as hypocrites who don't actually want a small government.

Jakaragua wrote:The problem with capital L Libertarianism is that they don't understand that "fiscal liberty" is a contradiction in philosophy. Laissez-faire capitalism liberates the wealthy and enslaves the poor. You cannot be free in a system that forces people to choose wage labor or starvation.

When people talk about being "socially liberal" and "fiscally conservative" remember that while it's important to support gay rights, and we shouldn't put people in jail for smoking reefer, most social repression comes from economics anyway. Folks who don't understand that, just don't understand society period.


1. Capital-L Libertarianism is the Libertarian Party, not the libertarian philosophy, which is actually lowercase-l libertarianism.
2. Not all libertarians want laissez-faire capitalism. Personally, I think capitalism is sustained through government privilege and would cease to exist without it.
Last edited by Meryuma on Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Fnordgasm 5
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Postby Fnordgasm 5 » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:45 pm

I always associate it with Anarchism. You know, Proudhon and Bakunin and whatnot..
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The Congregationists
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Postby The Congregationists » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:46 pm

Jakaragua wrote:The problem with capital L Libertarianism is that they don't understand that "fiscal liberty" is a contradiction in philosophy. Laissez-faire capitalism liberates the wealthy and enslaves the poor. You cannot be free in a system that forces people to choose wage labor or starvation.

When people talk about being "socially liberal" and "fiscally conservative" remember that while it's important to support gay rights, and we shouldn't put people in jail for smoking reefer, most social repression comes from economics anyway. Folks who don't understand that, just don't understand society period.


Hmmm ... interesting. And very true.

I think you'll find that this statement will not register on either side of the political spectrum these days. The right does not agree with the notion that "laissez faire capitalism liberates the wealthy and enslaves the poor" while the left would object to the notion that "most social repression comes from the economics anyway." You are a rare and enlightened, though unfortunately also a dying breed Jakaragua. Good analysis.
Last edited by The Congregationists on Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
•Criticism of sentimental love, marriage, sex, religion, and rituals.
•Valuing reason over emotion and imagination
•Ironic, indirect, and impersonal (objective) representation of ideas.
•Uncompromising criticism of romantic illusions.
•Advocacy of pragmatism and disapproval of idealism and ideology.
•Especially vehement opposition to neo-liberalism, social democracy, communism, libertarianism and feminism.
•Satirisation of irrational and whimsical attitudes of the so-called creative class.
•Criticism of social, political, cultural, and moral customs and manners of the contemporary society.

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Meryuma
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Postby Meryuma » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:48 pm

Fnordgasm 5 wrote:I always associate it with Anarchism. You know, Proudhon and Bakunin and whatnot..


Oh, I see. You're kickin' it old school.
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They don't sleep anymore on the beach.
Potarius wrote:
Neo Arcad wrote:Gravity is a natural phenomenon by which physical bodies attract with a force proportional to their mass.


In layman's terms, orgy time.


Niur wrote: my soul has no soul.


Saint Clair Island wrote:The English language sucks. From now on, I will refer to the second definition of sexual as "fucktacular."


Trotskylvania wrote:Alternatively, we could go on an epic quest to Plato's Cave to find the legendary artifact, Ockham's Razor.



Norstal wrote:Gunpowder Plot: America.

Meryuma: "Well, I just hope these hyperboles don't...

*puts on sunglasses*

blow out of proportions."

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


RIP in peace Oterro ;_;

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Fnordgasm 5
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Postby Fnordgasm 5 » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:49 pm

Meryuma wrote:
Fnordgasm 5 wrote:I always associate it with Anarchism. You know, Proudhon and Bakunin and whatnot..


Oh, I see. You're kickin' it old school.


Yup! That's how I roll!
Fnordgasm 5 is a twat.

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Dumb Ideologies
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:50 pm

Imagine a bunch of old homophobic, racist rich white guys escaping from the old folks home, putting on some snazzy clothes and some fancy aftershave, turning up at a club, putting their hips out on the dancefloor and hitting on all the most attractive women as if they belong amongst the trendy, young and radical.

That's what Libertarian means to me.
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Norstal
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Postby Norstal » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:52 pm

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Imagine a bunch of old homophobic, racist rich white guys escaping from the old folks home, putting on some snazzy clothes and some fancy aftershave, turning up at a club, putting their hips out on the dancefloor and hitting on all the most attractive women as if they belong amongst the trendy, young and radical.

That's what Libertarian means to me.

Oh, Glenn Beck then.

Yeah, that's what comes to mind when Libertarian is mentioned. Glenn Beck.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Beck#Viewpoints
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Ashmoria
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Postby Ashmoria » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:54 pm

Norstal wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:Imagine a bunch of old homophobic, racist rich white guys escaping from the old folks home, putting on some snazzy clothes and some fancy aftershave, turning up at a club, putting their hips out on the dancefloor and hitting on all the most attractive women as if they belong amongst the trendy, young and radical.

That's what Libertarian means to me.

Oh, Glenn Beck then.

Yeah, that's what comes to mind when Libertarian is mentioned. Glenn Beck.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Beck#Viewpoints

not the best spokesman for libertarianism, eh?

the other thing that comes to mind is ultra conservative republicans who are embarrassed by the hash W made of everything so they pretend that they are really libertarians (even though they vote straight republican)
whatever

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The Congregationists
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Postby The Congregationists » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:54 pm

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Imagine a bunch of old homophobic, racist rich white guys escaping from the old folks home, putting on some snazzy clothes and some fancy aftershave, turning up at a club, putting their hips out on the dancefloor and hitting on all the most attractive women as if they belong amongst the trendy, young and radical.

That's what Libertarian means to me.


Though most libertarians are actually amongst the trendy, young and radiacal. Libertarianism's stronghold is online, hardly a place you'd expect to find "Old homophobic, racist rich white guys." Old homophobic racist rich white guys already have a political label they're rather happy with. "Conservative." Same beliefs on economic issues, perhaps, but very different culture. That's the crux of the matter.
•Criticism of sentimental love, marriage, sex, religion, and rituals.
•Valuing reason over emotion and imagination
•Ironic, indirect, and impersonal (objective) representation of ideas.
•Uncompromising criticism of romantic illusions.
•Advocacy of pragmatism and disapproval of idealism and ideology.
•Especially vehement opposition to neo-liberalism, social democracy, communism, libertarianism and feminism.
•Satirisation of irrational and whimsical attitudes of the so-called creative class.
•Criticism of social, political, cultural, and moral customs and manners of the contemporary society.

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Dumb Ideologies
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:58 pm

The Congregationists wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:Imagine a bunch of old homophobic, racist rich white guys escaping from the old folks home, putting on some snazzy clothes and some fancy aftershave, turning up at a club, putting their hips out on the dancefloor and hitting on all the most attractive women as if they belong amongst the trendy, young and radical.

That's what Libertarian means to me.


Though most libertarians are actually amongst the trendy, young and radiacal. Libertarianism's stronghold is online, hardly a place you'd expect to find "Old homophobic, racist rich white guys." Old homophobic racist rich white guys already have a political label they're rather happy with. "Conservative." Same beliefs on economic issues, perhaps, but very different culture. That's the crux of the matter.


Economic and social issues, if you take most of the main representatives of the so-called Libertarian movement. It's a creaky old ideology dressed up in new clothes in a desperate attempt to appear to differ from the intellectually bankrupt conservatism of the past. The point stands.
Last edited by Dumb Ideologies on Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Hydesland » Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:03 pm

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Economic and social issues, if you take most of the main representatives of the so-called Libertarian movement.


Of the last two-three years perhaps, but of the last 50 or so years before that, absolutely not. Seriously, libertarians used to be pigeon-holed in with 'ultra liberals', say by the likes of fox news, as crazy radicals that want your kids to do drugs.
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Postby Genivar » Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:04 pm

Anarchist.
In case of forum argument, I'm on the side of the Socialists.
I am a far-left social libertarian.
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The Congregationists
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Postby The Congregationists » Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:05 pm

More or less dumb ideologies, but the main issue is one of emphasis. Like I said, a rebranding to appeal to a different socio-cultural cohort. Thus they play down the social conservatism and emphasise the 'small government' angle. They cannot attract youth otherwise. The 'conservative' label lacks credibility because: A) the social side of conservatism has less appeal to the young and B) the term 'conservative' has too many connotations with the Bush years and its association with warmongering and authoritarianism. So the kinds of policies that Reagan ran under, for instance, are rebranded as libertarian.

This happened on the left 20 years ago. Socialism fell out of favor, so that label was dropped in favor of 'progressive' which connoted social and cultural liberalism and downplayed the mixed economy, even though most progressives still sympathised with it.
•Criticism of sentimental love, marriage, sex, religion, and rituals.
•Valuing reason over emotion and imagination
•Ironic, indirect, and impersonal (objective) representation of ideas.
•Uncompromising criticism of romantic illusions.
•Advocacy of pragmatism and disapproval of idealism and ideology.
•Especially vehement opposition to neo-liberalism, social democracy, communism, libertarianism and feminism.
•Satirisation of irrational and whimsical attitudes of the so-called creative class.
•Criticism of social, political, cultural, and moral customs and manners of the contemporary society.

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South Lorenya
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Postby South Lorenya » Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:06 pm

How do I define libertarians? I define them as people who believe that the government should have only weak control over both civil freedoms and business freedoms.
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Dumb Ideologies
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:07 pm

Hydesland wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:Economic and social issues, if you take most of the main representatives of the so-called Libertarian movement.


Of the last two-three years perhaps, but of the last 50 or so years before that, absolutely not. Seriously, libertarians used to be pigeon-holed in with 'ultra liberals', say by the likes of fox news, as crazy radicals that want your kids to do drugs.


Oi! I'm only answering the chuffing question, ferchrissakes!

The question I answered was what it means to me now...not what it meant before it was popular and before it even came to my attention :eyebrow:
Last edited by Dumb Ideologies on Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Deleted Chris
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Postby The Deleted Chris » Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:09 pm

Ashmoria wrote:to me it means delusional people who think that a country of 300million+ people can have a small government.


Well congratulations on winning smug leftist wanker of the thread award. :clap:

You really couldn't have just offered a constructive and objective contribution?

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Dumb Ideologies
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:15 pm

The Deleted Chris wrote:
Ashmoria wrote:to me it means delusional people who think that a country of 300million+ people can have a small government.


Well congratulations on winning smug leftist wanker of the thread award. :clap:

You really couldn't have just offered a constructive and objective contribution?


This is a thread asking what people think about Libertarianism. From the way people are being jumped on, it seems like several have misread it as 'state how realistic and desirable Libertarian polices are or get bitchslapped by conceited rightists'. Sure, state your opinions everyone, as long as they're objective i.e. agree with mine!
Last edited by Dumb Ideologies on Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kobeanare
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Postby Kobeanare » Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:15 pm

The Congregationists wrote:More or less dumb ideologies, but the main issue is one of emphasis. Like I said, a rebranding to appeal to a different socio-cultural cohort. Thus they play down the social conservatism

Where are people getting the connection between libertarianism and social conservatism from?

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Fnordgasm 5
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Postby Fnordgasm 5 » Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:15 pm

The Deleted Chris wrote:
Ashmoria wrote:to me it means delusional people who think that a country of 300million+ people can have a small government.


Well congratulations on winning smug leftist wanker of the thread award. :clap:

You really couldn't have just offered a constructive and objective contribution?

I do not believe petty insults constitute "constructive and objective contribution" either, do you?
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North Suran
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Postby North Suran » Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:15 pm

Kobeanare wrote:
The Congregationists wrote:More or less dumb ideologies, but the main issue is one of emphasis. Like I said, a rebranding to appeal to a different socio-cultural cohort. Thus they play down the social conservatism

Where are people getting the connection between libertarianism and social conservatism from?

A vast majority of libertarians are socially conservative. See Rand Paul, for one.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:18 pm

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Imagine a bunch of old homophobic, racist rich white guys escaping from the old folks home, putting on some snazzy clothes and some fancy aftershave, turning up at a club, putting their hips out on the dancefloor and hitting on all the most attractive women as if they belong amongst the trendy, young and radical.

That's what Libertarian means to me.

If I agreed with you any more it would be some kind of copyright violation.
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Meryuma
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Postby Meryuma » Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:18 pm

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Imagine a bunch of old homophobic, racist rich white guys escaping from the old folks home, putting on some snazzy clothes and some fancy aftershave, turning up at a club, putting their hips out on the dancefloor and hitting on all the most attractive women as if they belong amongst the trendy, young and radical.

That's what Libertarian means to me.


What the fuck? Libertarianism is based around complete freedom for everyone, regardless of race or sexual orientation.

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Economic and social issues, if you take most of the main representatives of the so-called Libertarian movement.


If by that you mean Ron Paul (who's not exactly a shining example of libertarianism) and Glenn Beck (who isn't a libertarian and doesn't identify as one), then that's still false.

North Suran wrote:A vast majority of libertarians are socially conservative. See Rand Paul, for one.


Rand Paul isn't a libertarian. He's a conservatarian abomination.
Last edited by Meryuma on Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Potarius wrote:
Neo Arcad wrote:Gravity is a natural phenomenon by which physical bodies attract with a force proportional to their mass.


In layman's terms, orgy time.


Niur wrote: my soul has no soul.


Saint Clair Island wrote:The English language sucks. From now on, I will refer to the second definition of sexual as "fucktacular."


Trotskylvania wrote:Alternatively, we could go on an epic quest to Plato's Cave to find the legendary artifact, Ockham's Razor.



Norstal wrote:Gunpowder Plot: America.

Meryuma: "Well, I just hope these hyperboles don't...

*puts on sunglasses*

blow out of proportions."

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


RIP in peace Oterro ;_;

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