NationStates

Itoshiki wrote:

HMS Vanguard wrote:Islam is actually very clear and consistent; it's not Christianity.

No, it isn't. Hence why an entire tradition of interpretations and judgments are built around it. Following "pure, 10/10 exactly as told" Islam is impossible, and you'll find that it's not in the interest of most Muslims to do so, however much they pretend they do. Not that they can fully agree on it anyway.

Getting rid of Islam entirely would also be impossible, I might add, unless one wants to reduce it into European (northern) Christianity today: toothless, tolerant, existing in spite of the civilization.

HMS Vanguard wrote:

Itoshiki wrote:No, it isn't. Hence why an entire tradition of interpretations and judgments are built around it. Following "pure, 10/10 exactly as told" Islam is impossible, and you'll find that it's not in the interest of most Muslims to do so, however much they pretend they do. Not that they can fully agree on it anyway.

Maybe but that is equivocation. What school of Islam rejects the legitimacy and desirability of a Caliphate in principle? What school puts secular law of Westphalian states ahead of Shariah in principle? The differences between schools are about points tangential to this discussion, for the most part points only of any interest to Muslims.

HMS Vanguard wrote:

Getting rid of Islam entirely would also be impossible, I might add, unless one wants to reduce it into European (northern) Christianity today: toothless, tolerant, existing in spite of the civilization.

I don't think that is true although it may be very expensive. Simply removing Islam from Europe and the USA would be pretty easy.

Itoshiki wrote:As in, expelling people personally identify or registered as Muslims?

Itoshiki wrote:It's not like "suitcase or coffin" is as cheap as people would've led to believe. Especially for U.S. Muslims, an already well-established community.

Anis A is reported to have travelled to Italy in 2012 and then on to Germany in 2015 where he applied for asylum and was granted temporary leave to stay in April of this year.

Ralf Jaeger, the minister of interior of North Rhine-Westphalia, said on Wednesday that the claim for asylum had been rejected in June but the papers necessary for deportation had not been ready.

Tunisia, he said, had denied Anis A was its citizen, so the authorities had had to wait for temporary passport documentation from Tunisia.

"The papers arrived today from Tunisia," Mr Jaeger said.

Vassenor wrote:

Itoshiki wrote:It's not like "suitcase or coffin" is as cheap as people would've led to believe. Especially for U.S. Muslims, an already well-established community.

Plus unless something drastic changed ethnic cleansing like that is still a crime against humanity.

Itoshiki wrote:

HMS Vanguard wrote:Maybe but that is equivocation. What school of Islam rejects the legitimacy and desirability of a Caliphate in principle? What school puts secular law of Westphalian states ahead of Shariah in principle? The differences between schools are about points tangential to this discussion, for the most part points only of any interest to Muslims.

And yet many continue to do so anyway. Most "established" major schools were founded prior to counter-itjihad waged by al-Ghazali during the mid-Medieval era, but under them there are the assortment of scholars and plenty those outside of the spectrum. Islam is no Roman Catholicism, it might be more representative to point out the opinion of individuals as opposed to groups.

HMS Vanguard wrote:I don't think that is true although it may be very expensive. Simply removing Islam from Europe and the USA would be pretty easy.

Itoshiki wrote:As in, expelling people personally identify or registered as Muslims?

It's not like "suitcase or coffin" is as cheap as people would've led to believe. Especially for U.S. Muslims, an already well-established community.

HMS Vanguard wrote:

Itoshiki wrote:And yet many continue to do so anyway. Most "established" major schools were founded prior to counter-itjihad waged by al-Ghazali during the mid-Medieval era, but under them there are the assortment of scholars and plenty those outside of the spectrum. Islam is no Roman Catholicism, it might be more representative to point out the opinion of individuals as opposed to groups.

I'm fully aware that Islam is congregationalist or even individualist in polity. Answer the question: what major grouping rejects the supremacy of the Caliphate and Shariah in principle? These things are fundamental to Islam.

It's not like "suitcase or coffin" is as cheap as people would've led to believe. Especially for U.S. Muslims, an already well-established community.

I didn't answer your question the first time because it seems like a deliberate attempt to divert the discussion and waste my time. I don't think identifying who is a muslim is remotely hard.

Mefpan wrote:

Imperializt Russia wrote:The exact same argument is true of Christianity.

Not really. I'm sick of pretending that Christianity in its current state is just as bad as Islam in its current state.

The power of the church has been curtailed, the Pope is promoting tolerance and peace instead of the killing of heretics and sinners. Crusaderboos are a fucking internet novelty and will die off soon enough, the "worst" that really religious Christians these days do on average is screaming in impotent outrage about how LGBTs shouldn't be allowed to marry, but many would actually be appalled by the idea of actually going to murder them for daring to have a thing for the same sex.

Maybe you could make the case that Christianity in areas like Central Africa is fucking scary. But in the contemporary West, where most of the people posting here live? Fuck, no. When was the last time an Inquisitor kicked down your door for heresy? When was the last time your sister was burned at the stake for witchcraft? When was the last time your brother was put to the sword for daring to lay with another man?

The current Christianity is a declawed tiger, and its adherents far removed from the zeal you find in the Christians of previous centuries, or in the often Islamic migrants that began flooding here in recent years.

Frank Zipper wrote:Anis Amri has been named as the suspect.

Itoshiki wrote:

HMS Vanguard wrote:I'm fully aware that Islam is congregationalist or even individualist in polity. Answer the question: what major grouping rejects the supremacy of the Caliphate and Shariah in principle? These things are fundamental to Islam.

The wording of the question intentionally makes it pointless and misleading.

There is no major grouping within Islam that rejects the supremacy of the Caliphate and the Shariah in principle. This does not address that there are individual Muslims and perhaps minor groupings who do, more on rejecting the supremacy of the Caliphate, less on the Shariah. This does not address that the Shi'as, who technically do not outright reject the Caliphate, seem content on not pushing modern pan-Islamic Caliphate narrative, and so do plenty of Sunnis. This does not address the definition and practice of Shariah, varying on totalitarian religious laws enforced by morality police to simple guidance of life. This does not address that Caliphal supremacy was practically irrelevant, stripped of real authority for much of its history even most Muslims recognize it. Hell, this does not address that the Ahmadis, a persecuted Muslim group in conservative Muslim countries, have their own Caliph in London, hardly could be described as the pinnacle of radical Islam.
Are they "fundamental"? Probably, but probably not to your definition.

I didn't answer your question the first time because it seems like a deliberate attempt to divert the discussion and waste my time. I don't think identifying who is a muslim is remotely hard.

How is it a diversion? You criticize my proposal as "establishing wide state surveillance, censorship" etc and then your proposed solution is...to expel all Muslims and forbid them entrance.

Gauthier wrote:

Frank Zipper wrote:Anis Amri has been named as the suspect.

Tunisian man identified as new suspect in Berlin Christmas market attack
>Tunisian man now identified as truck attack suspect
>We still need to ban all Syrians

Gauthier wrote:

Frank Zipper wrote:Anis Amri has been named as the suspect.

Tunisian man identified as new suspect in Berlin Christmas market attack
>Tunisian man now identified as truck attack suspect
>We still need to ban all Syrians

Geilinor wrote:

Gauthier wrote:Tunisian man identified as new suspect in Berlin Christmas market attack
>Tunisian man now identified as truck attack suspect
>We still need to ban all Syrians

IIRC, the original suspect was Pakistani, not Syrian.

Gauthier wrote:

Empire of Narnia wrote:Apparently the attacker was a refugee.

>Refugee from Pakistan
>Let's ban all Syrians

New Moresby wrote:

Vassenor wrote:
So how will shutting the border stop natives committing terrorist attacks?

Theyre not European and will never be.

If we never let them in the first place it wouldn't of happened it's only going to get worse.

And then it'll get better

HMS Vanguard wrote:

Vassenor wrote:So why do Muslims need to be expelled from Europe but White and Hispanic Europeans don't need to be expelled from the Americas?

Muslims make Europe worse, Whites make America better.

Seraven wrote:

HMS Vanguard wrote:Muslims make Europe worse, Whites make America better.

I know right! Whites enslaved the natives, they killed them, they converted them forcibly, they acted like a better human beings than the Muslims.

Engleberg wrote:This event represents a horrible trend that has begun to spread in the world, and unfortunately will most likely continue into the future. And also, refugees shouldn't even be in Germany, and I am scared by the influx of them - even my hometown in Schleswig-Holstein has more Muslims and Arabic groups than any other ethnic group in it - 4,410.

Engleberg wrote:This event represents a horrible trend that has begun to spread in the world, and unfortunately will most likely continue into the future. And also, refugees shouldn't even be in Germany, and I am scared by the influx of them - even my hometown in Schleswig-Holstein has more Muslims and Arabic groups than any other ethnic group in it - 4,410.

San Lumen wrote:

Engleberg wrote:This event represents a horrible trend that has begun to spread in the world, and unfortunately will most likely continue into the future. And also, refugees shouldn't even be in Germany, and I am scared by the influx of them - even my hometown in Schleswig-Holstein has more Muslims and Arabic groups than any other ethnic group in it - 4,410.

Yes all refugees and Muslims are terrorists and we should forcibly send them back to where they came from. To say you fear someone just because of their race or religion or where they come from is the definition of xenophobia.

San Lumen wrote:

Engleberg wrote:This event represents a horrible trend that has begun to spread in the world, and unfortunately will most likely continue into the future. And also, refugees shouldn't even be in Germany, and I am scared by the influx of them - even my hometown in Schleswig-Holstein has more Muslims and Arabic groups than any other ethnic group in it - 4,410.

Yes all refugees and Muslims are terrorists and we should forcibly send them back to where they came from. To say you fear someone just because of their race or religion or where they come from is the definition of xenophobia.

Imperializt Russia wrote:That's not what is stated.

What was stated was that Europe would have stagnated where it was. Whether you believe that is true or not is your own belief, but you're reading interpretations that were not stated.

The Alma Mater wrote:

Seraven wrote:
I know right! Whites enslaved the natives, they killed them, they converted them forcibly, they acted like a better human beings than the Muslims.

An excellent example of why allowing unrestricted immigration of people with a very different culture might not be the best idea ever

The Alma Mater wrote:

Seraven wrote:
I know right! Whites enslaved the natives, they killed them, they converted them forcibly, they acted like a better human beings than the Muslims.

An excellent example of why allowing unrestricted immigration of people with a very different culture might not be the best idea ever