Left-Wing Discussion Thread II: Behind 700,000 Bunkers

[Trotskylvania]

However cliche it may sound, when you get rid of morality, you cease to be able to explain why certain actions should be avoided. If someone can commit a heinous crime and get away with it, having no emotional compunction against doing it, then you fail to explain why they should not.

It's not a cliche, its tautological. "Should" implies some sense of obligation; this does not objectively (read: mind-independent) exist, so all statements around what someone "should" do are false (unless a certain condition is supplied: "If you want X, then you should Y").

This still doesn't really answer criticisms of morality. It's more of just saying "without morality, you can't do all the things morality does".

You're really abusing the notion of mind-independence here.

Mind-independent notions are things that are true or false independent of anyone believing in them. This is to contrast subjective or mind-dependent notions like beauty (though people like Aristotle will fight tooth and nail on this). Something cannot be objectively beautiful, it's beautiful to me or you because we believe it to be.

Whereas the norms of logic and mathematics are mind independent. It doesn't matter whether you believe two and two equals four. As a construct of pure reason, it's true completely independent of belief, and it's true in all conceivable universes.

Without getting into evaluating the truth value of moral claims, it's erroneous to claim that they are mind-dependent. Obligation by its very nature implies mind-independence. Any moral system makes claims that it holds are true regardless of any individual's belief in them. It doesn't matter for Kant, for example, whether you believe in the categorical imperative or not. You are still to be judged for noncompliance, whether it is a conscious rejection or ignorance.

So, Communists of LWDT, how are you managing to cope today with our absolutely hopeless and depressing situation?

I focus mostly on personal artistic endeavors. Sometimes it's skewering a Nazi Furry/jibbering idiot's god awful self published novel. Other times it's writing fanfic or working on some short stories or trying to finish my novel about fully automated luxury queer space communists bashing the fash.

What I find interesting is how a socialist can criticize capitalism for its dependence on limitless growth because its never really unlimited, all the while defending industrialization's same faith in limitless growth.

Our most important post-revolution goal should be getting off this rock. A space civilization has access to easily available raw materials and energy resources that absolutely dwarf what's available on Earth, and is not dependent on a biosphere to sustain it. All the necessary technology already exists to make it viable. The only remaining hurdle is Earth's punishing gravity well.

[The Grene Knyght]

What I find interesting is how a socialist can criticize capitalism for its dependence on limitless growth because its never really unlimited, all the while defending industrialization's same faith in limitless growth.

Our most important post-revolution goal should be getting off this rock. A space civilization has access to easily available raw materials and energy resources that absolutely dwarf what's available on Earth, and is not dependent on a biosphere to sustain it. All the necessary technology already exists to make it viable. The only remaining hurdle is Earth's punishing gravity well.

Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Anarchism Pls

[The Grene Knyght]

Also did anyone hear about that commie on fox news?
http://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2014/08/fox_8_cleveland_angry_with_lkw.html
Its kind of infuriating how fox reacted to this: the interviewers asked him a question, he responded in a very calm, very well thought out and well spoken way, and now they're upset because he went on a "political rant." He didn't once speak over the interviewers, or interrupt them, and the whole thing lasted less than a minute...
Fuckin' fox news lol.

[Dark Triads]

What I think is a good idea is for people to become independent from the food market by growing their own crops, much like in the case of having home economies produce their own electricity through solar and other renewables and thus become essentially autarkic from society around them.

Surely it's better for the Commune as a whole to become self-sufficient, no?

Either way it will. I was thinking more of the now with no communes present, but home economies as units instead. They would make the communes, which would cooperate and form a de facto separate entity from the national and global economies.

[Conscentia]

What I think is a good idea is for people to become independent from the food market by growing their own crops, much like in the case of having home economies produce their own electricity through solar and other renewables and thus become essentially autarkic from society around them.

Why is it good to be independent from the food market? The food market frees people up from subsistence farming, allowing them to do other work. Not everyone wants to or can grow their own food. Additionally, subsistence farming isn't nearly as efficient - it wouldn't be able to sustain as large a population as modern agriculture is presently able to.

[Dark Triads]

What I think is a good idea is for people to become independent from the food market by growing their own crops, much like in the case of having home economies produce their own electricity through solar and other renewables and thus become essentially autarkic from society around them.

Why is it good to be independent from the food market? The food market frees people up from subsistence farming, allowing them to do other work. Not everyone wants to or can grow their own food.

It'd be done as a tactic to choke the capitalist state by paying as little taxes to it as possible. It'd free people from working and consuming, which create revenue to the whole system.

[Conscentia]

Why is it good to be independent from the food market? The food market frees people up from subsistence farming, allowing them to do other work. Not everyone wants to or can grow their own food.

It'd be done as a tactic to choke the capitalist state by paying as little taxes to it as possible. It'd free people from working and consuming, which create revenue to the whole system.

It only frees people up from work if you don't consider subsistence farming work. It also doesn't free people from consuming - it just limits them to consuming only what they can produce themselves. It frees people neither from work nor consumption - it only limits their options with regards to work and consumption.

As a tactic, it'd be completely ineffective. It depends on having a vast majority of people quit their jobs to farm their own food - something that simply isn't feasible. It also seems completely contrary to historical & dialectical materialism, which you said you based your views in, as you essentially want to turn the clock back many centuries while ignoring the reasons subsistence farming was superseded in the first place.

[Dark Triads]

It'd be done as a tactic to choke the capitalist state by paying as little taxes to it as possible. It'd free people from working and consuming, which create revenue to the whole system.

It only frees people up from work if you don't consider subsistence farming work. It also doesn't free people from consuming - it just limits them to consuming only what they can produce themselves. It frees people neither from work nor consumption - it only limits their options with regards to work and consumption.

As a tactic, it'd be completely ineffective. it depends on having a vast majority of people quit their jobs to farm their own food - something that simply isn't feasible. It also seems completely contrary to historical & dialectical materialism, which you said you based your views in, as you essentially want to turn the clock back many centuries while ignoring the reasons subsistence farming was superseded in the first place.

Doesn't really work then, huh. Well, regardless of what tactic you want to use, you need to get a substantial amount of people behind it anyway.

[United Marxist Nations]

What do you guys think of voluntarist communes?

I ask because a few members of my parish have expressed support for the idea, but I don't really know enough about the concept to talk about it with them.

[Trotskylvania]

Our most important post-revolution goal should be getting off this rock. A space civilization has access to easily available raw materials and energy resources that absolutely dwarf what's available on Earth, and is not dependent on a biosphere to sustain it. All the necessary technology already exists to make it viable. The only remaining hurdle is Earth's punishing gravity well.

Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Anarchism Pls

Anarchists cannot into total war

[Yoshida (Ancient)]

What do you guys think of voluntarist communes?

I ask because a few members of my parish have expressed support for the idea, but I don't really know enough about the concept to talk about it with them.

I'm a strong believer in them.

[Venerable Bede]

the norms of logic and mathematics are mind independent. It doesn't matter whether you believe two and two equals four. As a construct of pure reason, it's true completely independent of belief, and it's true in all conceivable universes.

That's axiomatic, 2 + 2 is simply another way of writing "4". It equals that because of the system of thought put in place, that doesn't mean it's some sort of truth transcendent of human thought, though. i x i = -1 axiomatically, that doesn't mean it's some sort of innate truth in the universe, it's just an innate function of the grammar we use to describe the universe.

[Venerable Bede]

What do you guys think of voluntarist communes?

I ask because a few members of my parish have expressed support for the idea, but I don't really know enough about the concept to talk about it with them.

Isn't that what monasteries, as well as early Christianity, are?

[Labalosia]

just started playing this. Feels nice to see that not everyone is some kind of right wing nut in here.

also what do you guys think about S T I R N E R

[Collatis]

just started playing this. Feels nice to see that not everyone is some kind of right wing nut in here.

also what do you guys think about S T I R N E R

He makes for gr8 memes

[Venerable Bede]

just started playing this. Feels nice to see that not everyone is some kind of right wing nut in here.

also what do you guys think about S T I R N E R

"Dude, anything more important than me doesn't exist, LMAO."

[Trotskylvania]

the norms of logic and mathematics are mind independent. It doesn't matter whether you believe two and two equals four. As a construct of pure reason, it's true completely independent of belief, and it's true in all conceivable universes.

That's axiomatic, 2 + 2 is simply another way of writing "4". It equals that because of the system of thought put in place, that doesn't mean it's some sort of truth transcendent of human thought, though. i x i = -1 axiomatically, that doesn't mean it's some sort of innate truth in the universe, it's just an innate function of the grammar we use to describe the universe.

All rules of mathematics derive from it's basic axioms, yes. I was merely giving an example of a mind independent statement that was also unambiguously true.

[Grenartia]

Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Anarchism Pls

Anarchists cannot into total war

One of my bigger beefs with anarchism.

[Bogdanov Vishniac]

Anarchists cannot into total war

One of my bigger beefs with anarchism.

Why is it necessary that anarchism or anarchists be capable of total war?

[Grenartia]

One of my bigger beefs with anarchism.

Why is it necessary that anarchism or anarchists be capable of total war?

To defend itself from existential threats. I don't put much stock in ideologies or philosophies that don't engage in self-preservation.

[Kubra]

Why is it necessary that anarchism or anarchists be capable of total war?

To defend itself from existential threats. I don't put much stock in ideologies or philosophies that don't engage in self-preservation.

Can we engage in total war
like we of canada or the us or sweden and so on
citizens of such places

[Bhikkustan]

One of my bigger beefs with anarchism.

Why is it necessary that anarchism or anarchists be capable of total war?

Well I for one want to play med 2, so anarchism isn't appealing if it can't...

[Pandeeria]

So what's your proposed alternative?

A decentralized low-energy economy (Ie no routinized transoceanic shipping dependent on fossil fuels) with small, medium and large communities networked together physically and electronically so that production can be run in a consensus-based, democratic manner while retaining maximum efficiency and technical capability.

You unnecessarily want a low-energy economy when we can just use different sources of fuel that are much better for the environment? Sorry, but I like my abundant mass produced goods. I wish the toiling workers in the factories were being horribly exploited (which we can stop under Socialism), but I also like seeing industry coming along.

[Pandeeria]

Surely it's better for the Commune as a whole to become self-sufficient, no?

Either way it will. I was thinking more of the now with no communes present, but home economies as units instead. They would make the communes, which would cooperate and form a de facto separate entity from the national and global economies.

No it won't. Having single homes trying to act as industrial forces does not work. It's better to have specialized centers under which various forms of production and research can be carried out. Your home should remain purely personal property, and stay just that.

[The Grene Knyght]

can't believe people are taking my shitpost seriously