NationStates

HE also has no clue what "debt" means. It means to him " SPEND MORE! SPEND MORE!".

Rylovatkia wrote:Democrats CANNOT shove a bill down the people's throat. We have a right to choose if we want health care. And of course..... they think we are un-important, as always. They even said Iran is BECOMING a military dictatorship....when they already are! That is a example how Democrats do not listen. I just hope that my governer, Bob McDonald, can smack some sense into those socialists!Democrats have even attacked the constitution.YOU DO NOT TRY TO DAMAGE WHAT BUILT THIS NATION!!!!!!! If you want us to have healthcare even when some of us do not......Mr. Obama.....you gotta fight for it.

You think the Democrats are socialists? Teeheehee.

Ifreann wrote:You think the Democrats are socialists? Teeheehee.

they are

Ifreann wrote:

Rylovatkia wrote:Democrats CANNOT shove a bill down the people's throat. We have a right to choose if we want health care. And of course..... they think we are un-important, as always. They even said Iran is BECOMING a military dictatorship....when they already are! That is a example how Democrats do not listen. I just hope that my governer, Bob McDonald, can smack some sense into those socialists!Democrats have even attacked the constitution.YOU DO NOT TRY TO DAMAGE WHAT BUILT THIS NATION!!!!!!! If you want us to have healthcare even when some of us do not......Mr. Obama.....you gotta fight for it.

You think the Democrats are socialists? Teeheehee.

Probably thinks Obama is an illegal Kenyan Muslim too, heh.

Scario wrote:HE also has no clue what "debt" means. It means to him " SPEND MORE! SPEND MORE!".

why do you bother posting something like this that is foolishly untrue?

Ashmoria wrote:

Scario wrote:

Ashmoria wrote:

Les Drapeaux Brulants wrote:
So what this comes down to is this, PrezBO is breaking his promise not to sign a health care bill that adds to the federal deficit, as well as his promise to look for more than a 50+1 solution to health care reform.

what part of the 60/40 vote did you miss?

Mister Obama said he would pass it if we liked it or not. you are SICK,SICK, man Mr.Obama .

when did he say that?

When they lost a vote in congress to pass health care. But really, Nancy said it. And Mr. Obama agrees.

Scario wrote:

Ashmoria wrote:

Scario wrote:

Ashmoria wrote:

Les Drapeaux Brulants wrote:
So what this comes down to is this, PrezBO is breaking his promise not to sign a health care bill that adds to the federal deficit, as well as his promise to look for more than a 50+1 solution to health care reform.

what part of the 60/40 vote did you miss?

Mister Obama said he would pass it if we liked it or not. you are SICK,SICK, man Mr.Obama .

when did he say that?

When they lost a vote in congress to pass health care. But really, Nancy said it. And Mr. Obama agrees.

or perhaps he said he would pass it no matter if the republicans liked it or not

Martaz wrote:

Ifreann wrote:You think the Democrats are socialists? Teeheehee.

they are

Not even a little bit.

Scario wrote:

Ashmoria wrote:

Scario wrote:

Ashmoria wrote:

Les Drapeaux Brulants wrote:
So what this comes down to is this, PrezBO is breaking his promise not to sign a health care bill that adds to the federal deficit, as well as his promise to look for more than a 50+1 solution to health care reform.

what part of the 60/40 vote did you miss?

Mister Obama said he would pass it if we liked it or not. you are SICK,SICK, man Mr.Obama .

when did he say that?

When they lost a vote in congress to pass health care. But really, Nancy said it. And Mr. Obama agrees.

Obama will pass a bill even if 41 Senators disagree? HE'S A MAD MAN! NEVER BEFORE IN THE HISTORY OF OUR NATION HAS THIS EVER OCCURRED!

Martaz wrote:

Ifreann wrote:You think the Democrats are socialists? Teeheehee.

they are

Our Labour Party is more socialist than the Democrats, and they're pretty much abandoned all the left of their party in favour of the heavily populated centre.

Our CONSERVATIVE Party is more socialist than the Democrats in fact, they still allow universal healthcare. And a more ambitious one than the attempt made by the Democrats

Our Liberal Party in fact had the same problems as this in 1911, where've you been?

Rylovatkia wrote:Democrats CANNOT shove a bill down the people's throat. We have a right to choose if we want health care.

The majority of Americans want health care reform. If you list out most of the individual items in the bill, most Americans want those. The only reason that it seems that most Americans are opposed to the bill is that the Republicans have been lying through their teeth about what's in it.

That said, the Democrats are ignoring the American people too. The majority of Americans are actually in favor of a public option, which was pulled out of the bill to appeal to Republicans and blue dogs.

Dempublicents1 wrote:

Rylovatkia wrote:Democrats CANNOT shove a bill down the people's throat. We have a right to choose if we want health care.

The majority of Americans want health care reform. If you list out most of the individual items in the bill, most Americans want those. The only reason that it seems that most Americans are opposed to the bill is that the Republicans have been lying through their teeth about what's in it.

That said, the Democrats are ignoring the American people too. The majority of Americans are actually in favor of a public option, which was pulled out of the bill to appeal to Republicans and blue dogs.

This. Two-thirds of Americans have pretty consistently back a public option.

If 'Rylovatkia' cares about what 'we' choose - well, he/she should be backing public option all the way.

I wonder if he/she does? Or if he/she is only interested in what 'the people' want, if it agrees with his/her ideology.

Crabulonia wrote:

Martaz wrote:

Ifreann wrote:You think the Democrats are socialists? Teeheehee.

they are

Our Labour Party is more socialist than the Democrats, and they're pretty much abandoned all the left of their party in favour of the heavily populated centre.

Our CONSERVATIVE Party is more socialist than the Democrats in fact, they still allow universal healthcare. And a more ambitious one than the attempt made by the Democrats

Our Liberal Party in fact had the same problems as this in 1911, where've you been?

WHO FUCKING CARE ABOUT EUROPE

I DON'T WANT AMERICA TO BE SOCIALIST AS EUROPE

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Central and northern EU countries tend to have the highest tax burdens. Sweden is number one at 50.5 percent, followed by Denmark (48.8 percent), Belgium (45.2 percent) and Finland (44.3 percent). Other notables include France (43.4 percent), Italy (40.6 percent), and the United Kingdom (36.0 percent).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Every day EU countries violate the human rights of million of european people to pay low taxes

Tax are Theft....if you don't pay your share government put you in jail

Europe is one of the greatest treath to human freedom that the world has ever face

SOCIALISM DOESN'T WORK...EU will go bankrupt in the next 20 years....Spain and Greece are Bankrupt because their socialist policy, Sweden population is 50% muslim and 50% atheist thanks to your fucking socialism

Martaz wrote:Sweden population is 50% muslim and 50% atheist thanks to your fucking socialism

Quality.

Saiwania wrote:

Ashmoria wrote:All i can say is that if it IS hypocrisy I'm happy that the president is willing to be a hypocrite for the good of the country.

It's for the good of the country to force everyone to buy private health insurance or pay a fine? What about the freedom of the individual to choose not to buy health care?

None of the homeless/poor/unemployed people are going to want or be able to pay the fine, (much less health insurance) and with so many people choosing to not pay into this individual mandate the government will not be able to put all of them in jail so I believe this Obamacare will end to be a colossal failure and will be changed/watered down/repealed in the long term.

This is the problem that people on your side of the argument already make. People that poor are already covered by medicaid so point nullified because it doesn't apply. Also, people choosing not to buy healthcare if fine in principal. That is, until they walk into an Emergency Room and cannot pay for care. At that time the American public already pays 10 times the amount for their care and it overwhelms the ER for Bronchitis. Every wonder why ER facilities charge over a hundred dollars to prescribe a painkiller you can buy over the counter for 5 bucks? I'm not psyched about fines for people who refuse to pay for care. I'm less excited about paying unnecessary charity care/indigent care for things that can be handled for far less in a regular office visit. We're talking mostly about the working poor who fall in the grey area where they do not get public assistance. Or people who work for companies small enough to make them exempt from providing healthcare. Or people who are self employed and cannot afford a plan. Employer based healthcare does not work to satisfy enough of the population. Small businesses would love to be able to provide healthcare for their staff. One of the ideas is that small companies can pool their resources thereby allowing them to reduce the rates they would pay in order to help their employees. Also, being able to reach across state lines and re import already FDA approved medications from places like Canada is also a bonus. Sure, allowing people to just refuse healthcare seems like a GREAT idea. That's providing those people never get sick beyond basic illnesses. Then we pay through the nose for ER care every time. Yup, that's the best way.

Free Soviets wrote:

Saiwania wrote:It's for the good of the country to force everyone to buy private health insurance or pay a fine? What about the freedom of the individual to choose not to buy health care?

None of the homeless/poor/unemployed people are going to want or be able to pay the fine, and with so many people choosing to not to pay into this individual mandate the government will not be able to put all of them in jail so I believe this Obamacare will end to be a colossal failure and will be changed/watered down/repealed in the long term.

healthcare is subsidized for everyone under 4x the poverty line. people need to be making well into the upper middle class range to have to pay their full premiums. the poor and unemployed won't pay a dime.

better informed conservatives, please.

Hahaha

Saiwania wrote:

NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ wrote:None of the homeless/poor/unemployed people are going to want or be able to pay the fine, (much less their taxes) and with so many people choosing not to pay these taxes, the government will not be able to put all of them in jail so I believe these "taxes" will end to be a colossal failure and will be changed/watered down/repealed in the long term.

Cute. Manipulating my opposition against mandated health care to me being opposed to taxes. Only this is not purely a taxpayer funded entitlement. This is in my view, mainly about forcing as many people as possible to buy private health insurance as a boon to the industry with no public option, and what about the fact it could bankrupt the country down the road? It allegedly costs $1 trillion now, but who knows how much it's costs will explode in say 10-15 years?

Maybe you forgot this part: It costs 1 trillion over 10 years so they already accounted for your baseline argument. Also, at that time costs will be going down (CBO-an independent auditor) not up. So unless you only pay attention to certain news channels you would understand that the cost of healthcare will decrease over time instead of increase.

The_pantless_hero wrote:

Saiwania wrote:I argue that the bill as currently written, will cause premiums to rise even higher than with keeping to the status quo.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 04327.html

1) The CBO disagrees.
2) Do people with cancer/asthma/heart disease/osteoporosis/etc not catch the flu/cold/URI/common viral infection/common bacterial infection/etc? Because that is what your argument proposes. It is America's already shitty treatment and upkeep of general health that got us into this mess.

The CBO seems to know a lot better than you do. According to them, it will REDUCE the budget deficit over 10 years.

I disagree on the grounds that the bill has several budget gimmicks in it which will hide the true cost and that it is merely an estimate that will not reflect the true cost which will likely end up being more expensive in the long term. Social Security was believed to always be able to remain solvent yet now it is so far into the red.
http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2009/11/ ... -trillion/

So for some reason, a third-party right-wing think tank knows better what gimmicks and hidden tricks are in the bill than the Congressional Budget Office? Color me unconvinced.

What he said. Sure, I can find biased sites out there to support my claim too. Instead we chose the CBO which is an independent organization with NO political affiliation or hidden ideology.

Les Drapeaux Brulants wrote:

NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ wrote:

Les Drapeaux Brulants wrote:As I said, there was virtually no rebuttal to those points. The CBO can only estimate with the data that it has been given. Just like a computer, garbage in -- garbage out. If the Democrats are going to insist on double counting savings,

The CBO already addressed that.

delaying the provision of services for 6 years, while collecting taxes for 10, of course the CBO numbers will look favorable.

The CBO said it will reduce the deficit over 10 years. You know what the deficit is right?

I don't see any statement in there that contradicts my complaint about the garbage that the CBO was given to estimate.

First off, the bill has 10 years of tax increases, about half a trillion dollars, with 10 years of Medicare cuts, about half a trillion dollars, to pay for six years of spending. There's one gimmick.

Next, take a look at the Medicare cuts, the bill treats Medicare like a piggy bank. $500 Billion is taken from Medicare, not to shore up Medicare solvency, but to spend on this new government program.

You can't say that you're using this money to either extend Medicare solvency AND also offset the cost of this new program. That's double counting. Another gimmick.

Then, there's the "doc fix" thing... That's been removed because the cost was too embarassing -- about $370 billion.

Last, the chief Medicare actuary states that the cost curve is bending up. That adds another $222 billion to the program.

When you get rid of all the gimmicks that were placed in front of the CBO, the full 10- year cost of the bill has a $460 billion deficit. The second 10-year cost of this bill has a $1.4 trillion deficit.

But you know better...

Ok, I'll weigh in here. You really don't need to respond to something that is merely a figment of one man/think tank's imagination. You can say to me, "purple monkeys will fly out of the caves and eat the brains of all Christians" and expect me to respond to it but I won't. I will take the CBO (an INDEPENDENT) organization before partisan hackery. I'd do it if the sides were reversed and it was some crazy liberal organization making the claims. You're 4th person opinion making here. Have you read through the entire bill and done a cost analysis? Or have you simply chosen to listen to someone who fits your world view to oppose this? And guess what...any organization can be wrong so pointing out that they have been wrong in the past is silly. By your logic we should never listen to Dick Cheney ever again because that motherfucker has been wrong on nearly everything since he came into politics. Somehow I doubt we will have a need to miss him on Sunday morning talk shows. As far as .5 in tax increases...I'm sorry that the upper 1% is going to have to give a few thousand more towards helping out the rest of Americans. Shit, all Obama wants to do is put tax levels back to the Reagan years. Wasn't Reagan the grand poobah of Republican Fiscal thought? Let's keep giving tax breaks to the rich who have worked so hard (inherited so much) to get these gains. We're talking about wealth not being rich. Wealth is something you can't erase easily. Wealth is something that is passed down like a monarchy to your kin. Asking these people to give up what would amount to a nice diamond tennis bracelet is hardly socialism when it would help the rest of society.

Martaz wrote:

Crabulonia wrote:

Martaz wrote:

Ifreann wrote:You think the Democrats are socialists? Teeheehee.

they are

Our Labour Party is more socialist than the Democrats, and they're pretty much abandoned all the left of their party in favour of the heavily populated centre.

Our CONSERVATIVE Party is more socialist than the Democrats in fact, they still allow universal healthcare. And a more ambitious one than the attempt made by the Democrats

Our Liberal Party in fact had the same problems as this in 1911, where've you been?

WHO FUCKING CARE ABOUT EUROPE

I DON'T WANT AMERICA TO BE SOCIALIST AS EUROPE

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Central and northern EU countries tend to have the highest tax burdens. Sweden is number one at 50.5 percent, followed by Denmark (48.8 percent), Belgium (45.2 percent) and Finland (44.3 percent). Other notables include France (43.4 percent), Italy (40.6 percent), and the United Kingdom (36.0 percent).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Every day EU countries violate the human rights of million of european people to pay low taxes

Tax are Theft....if you don't pay your share government put you in jail

Europe is one of the greatest treath to human freedom that the world has ever face

SOCIALISM DOESN'T WORK...EU will go bankrupt in the next 20 years....Spain and Greece are Bankrupt because their socialist policy, Sweden population is 50% muslim and 50% atheist thanks to your fucking socialism

America is already bankrupt, and doesn't even have universal healthcare. It'd be funny if it wasn't so sad.

Grave_n_idle wrote:

Martaz wrote:

Crabulonia wrote:

Martaz wrote:

Ifreann wrote:You think the Democrats are socialists? Teeheehee.

they are

Our Labour Party is more socialist than the Democrats, and they're pretty much abandoned all the left of their party in favour of the heavily populated centre.

Our CONSERVATIVE Party is more socialist than the Democrats in fact, they still allow universal healthcare. And a more ambitious one than the attempt made by the Democrats

Our Liberal Party in fact had the same problems as this in 1911, where've you been?

WHO FUCKING CARE ABOUT EUROPE

I DON'T WANT AMERICA TO BE SOCIALIST AS EUROPE

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Central and northern EU countries tend to have the highest tax burdens. Sweden is number one at 50.5 percent, followed by Denmark (48.8 percent), Belgium (45.2 percent) and Finland (44.3 percent). Other notables include France (43.4 percent), Italy (40.6 percent), and the United Kingdom (36.0 percent).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Every day EU countries violate the human rights of million of european people to pay low taxes

Tax are Theft....if you don't pay your share government put you in jail

Europe is one of the greatest treath to human freedom that the world has ever face

SOCIALISM DOESN'T WORK...EU will go bankrupt in the next 20 years....Spain and Greece are Bankrupt because their socialist policy, Sweden population is 50% muslim and 50% atheist thanks to your fucking socialism

America is already bankrupt, and doesn't even have universal healthcare. It'd be funny if it wasn't so sad.

I dunno, I think it is kinda funny.

NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ wrote:

Les Drapeaux Brulants wrote:

NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ wrote:

Les Drapeaux Brulants wrote:I don't consider the unsupported statement that the CBO has accounted for a gimmick to be adequate rebuttal.

You keep saying this like it means something.

First you said there were double counted savings, the CBO said they only counted them once.

Then you claimed that not spending in the first 4 years somehow artificially reduced the deficit in the 10th year. One need only look up the definition of "deficit" to understand why this claim is nonsensical.

Then you complained about the "doc fix" thing not being added to the cost of the bill, the CBO said they did add it to the cost of the bill.

Then you repeated the lie about what the Medicare actuary said.

The only one inserting gimmicks and engaging in crap accounting here is you.

Only they didn't. Not in the letter to Reid and not in anything I see since then.

Then you're pretty bad at using Google.
double counted savings only counted once

As for the doc fix.

H.R. 3961 would restructure the Sustainable Growth Rate (SGR) formula, which
determines the updates to payment rates for physician services. CBO estimates that
enacting H.R. 3961 would increase direct spending by about $210 billion over the 2010-
2019 period.

On July 17, 2009, CBO transmitted a preliminary analysis of H.R. 3200, the America’s
Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009, as introduced on July 14, 2009. Section 1121 of
that bill included the provisions of H.R. 3961. In July, CBO estimated the net cost of
section 1121—taking into account the interactions with Medicare Advantage, TRICARE,
and Part B premiums—would total $245 billion over the 2010-2019 period.

LESS than the original estimate.

If you truly believe the CBO is to be trusted, then you're naive. The fact that we are paying for 6 years of services over a ten year period ought to be enough to cause some serious concern. In fact the CBO was concerned that the ten year budget was misleading, so they informed Reid that the second decade would cause $600 billion in additional federal deficits. And I say they were low in that estimate, too.

More lies.
"All told, CBO expects that the legislation, if enacted, would reduce federal budget deficits over the decade after 2019 relative to those projected under current law—with a total effect during that decade that is in a broad range between one-quarter percent and one-half percent of GDP."

So what this comes down to is this, PrezBO is breaking his promise not to sign a health care bill that adds to the federal deficit,

You keep saying this without presenting any actual evidence. Maybe you just hate PrezBO and that's what's motivating your accusations.

as well as his promise to look for more than a 50+1 solution to health care reform.

Not really, he decided to look for something besides a 59+1 solution. I'm not sure how you get 50+1 out of that. But you have demonstrated a pretty bad grasp of arithmetic thus far, so that doesn't surprise me.

Oh no, your actual sourced claims do refute what he said. Thank you for finding these and not making me have to. We are all entitled to our own opinions. What we are not entitled to are our own facts.

Gordonopia wrote:Can the GOP stop the Democrats? I certainly hope so. I also hope we win BIG in this year. The Democrats had their chance and they screwed it up. Now it's time to step aside and let the big boys show them how it is done.

Wait wait wait, Republicans fucked up lock stepping in their following of Bush for 8 years right? That's what got them booted out in overwhelming fashion. Obama and this congress have been in office for how long? APPROX 1 year and 1 month. That's equal? Not to mention that Republicans have used the filibuster, or threat thereof, in record numbers to block any legislation put forth. This is what has killed progress and somehow you think that means the democrats have screwed things up so badly it's out time? Oh, blind partisans are so funny to me. I hate you people whether you are on the left or the right.

Martaz wrote:Can the Republicans stop the Democrats?

YES WE CAN

Be gone troll.

Rylovatkia wrote:Democrats CANNOT shove a bill down the people's throat. We have a right to choose if we want health care. And of course..... they think we are un-important, as always. They even said Iran is BECOMING a military dictatorship....when they already are! That is a example how Democrats do not listen. I just hope that my governer, Bob McDonald, can smack some sense into those socialists!Democrats have even attacked the constitution.YOU DO NOT TRY TO DAMAGE WHAT BUILT THIS NATION!!!!!!! If you want us to have healthcare even when some of us do not......Mr. Obama.....you gotta fight for it.

You missed the 60-40 vote I see.