Venezuela Officially becomes a dictatorship.

[Novus America]

This is just false. First of all Ukraine has serious problems but is doing better than Venezuela right now. And it is a corrupt democracy. The far right parties have very limited power and have not done well, and mostly free and fair elections are being held. You have been watching to much RT.

But Ukraine is not the topic.

Oh, really, does it? A war in the east and no means to wage it, lack of money, crime, Ukrainian ministery of defense saying people as old as 1 or 100 years old died in the war (just how careless are they?), emigration, people refusing to fight, news have to relief their people by spreading false news of getting military support from the U.S and focusing on Russian problems. Me? Watching RT? Sorry, I can read Ukrainian news and Ukrainian activist's facebook pages because I know Russian. Ukraine is in fact a corrupt oligocracy, its president is the richest person in the Ukraine who promised to get rid of his business, but he didn't. Another thief-in-law as they say, just a more pro-western one.

Ukraine has a lower crime rate and a better performing economy (Venezuela is that shitty, even shitty Ukraine is better), despite Russia's low intensity war against it. Yes Ukraine's democracy is deeply flawed. Though always has been. Yes it has oligarchs, but is not an absolute oligarchy and has elections, its president was elected, you might not like him but the people chose him. And he is flawed but no Nazi. But what the hell does this have to with Venezuela?

[New Werpland]

This is just false. First of all Ukraine has serious problems but is doing better than Venezuela right now. And it is a corrupt democracy. The far right parties have very limited power and have not done well, and mostly free and fair elections are being held. You have been watching to much RT.

But Ukraine is not the topic.

Oh, really, does it? A war in the east and no means to wage it, lack of money, crime, Ukrainian ministery of defense saying people as old as 1 or 100 years old died in the war (just how careless are they?), emigration, people refusing to fight, news have to relief their people by spreading false news of getting military support from the U.S and focusing on Russian problems. Me? Watching RT? Sorry, I can read Ukrainian news and Ukrainian activist's facebook pages because I know Russian. Ukraine is in fact a corrupt oligocracy, its president is the richest person in the Ukraine who promised to get rid of his business, but he didn't. Another thief-in-law as they say, just a more pro-western one.

Not all liberal revolutions are the same. Georgia had a liberal revolution, and went from being a typical failed state to a country with little corruption and stable economic growth.

But regardless of whether or not you think the Ukrainians did the right thing, Ukraine is not Venezuela. The Donbass is not going to try and secede if Maduro gets couped and alleged Nazis are not going to take his place.

[Free Rhenish States]

Oh, really, does it? A war in the east and no means to wage it, lack of money, crime, Ukrainian ministery of defense saying people as old as 1 or 100 years old died in the war (just how careless are they?), emigration, people refusing to fight, news have to relief their people by spreading false news of getting military support from the U.S and focusing on Russian problems. Me? Watching RT? Sorry, I can read Ukrainian news and Ukrainian activist's facebook pages because I know Russian. Ukraine is in fact a corrupt oligocracy, its president is the richest person in the Ukraine who promised to get rid of his business, but he didn't. Another thief-in-law as they say, just a more pro-western one.

Not all liberal revolutions are the same. Georgia had a liberal revolution, and went from being a typical failed state to a country with little corruption and stable economic growth.

But regardless of whether or not you think the Ukrainians did the right thing, Ukraine is not Venezuela. The Donbass is not going to try and secede if Maduro gets couped and alleged Nazis are not going to take his place.

And yet most liberal revolutions are the same, transforming a typical failed state into an even more failed state.

Oh, did they? By ruining their capital, threwing out a corrupt president from the office only to replace him with a president just as corrupt? Like, hey guys, let's make a democratic revolution, it'll ruin our country economically, but it's worth it! Oh, did I mention the part where their favorite Americans refused to back them up and the Europeans not wanting to feed them by letting them into the EU? Honestly, this country was just deceived, and is now left all alone.
Of course, Venezuela is not Ukraine, Venezuela would be involved in an even worse civil war, this time, not without involvement of the USA.

[Free Rhenish States]

Oh, really, does it? A war in the east and no means to wage it, lack of money, crime, Ukrainian ministery of defense saying people as old as 1 or 100 years old died in the war (just how careless are they?), emigration, people refusing to fight, news have to relief their people by spreading false news of getting military support from the U.S and focusing on Russian problems. Me? Watching RT? Sorry, I can read Ukrainian news and Ukrainian activist's facebook pages because I know Russian. Ukraine is in fact a corrupt oligocracy, its president is the richest person in the Ukraine who promised to get rid of his business, but he didn't. Another thief-in-law as they say, just a more pro-western one.

Ukraine has a lower crime rate and a better performing economy (Venezuela is that shitty, even shitty Ukraine is better), despite Russia's low intensity war against it. Yes Ukraine's democracy is deeply flawed. Though always has been. Yes it has oligarchs, but is not an absolute oligarchy and has elections, its president was elected, you might not like him but the people chose him. And he is flawed but no Nazi. But what the hell does this have to with Venezuela?

Lower crime rate when a country is all in all criminalized is hardly a big achievement. Ukrainian economy hardly exists, and Ukraine has to spend the little it gains to support the war effort. How's that a working country? Do you read my posts? It's president that got elected is in fact an oligarch, corrupt just as the one before. Russia also has elections? Does it make it a democracy? No. Did you read the quoted post above? Ukraine is just an example of how a liberal revolution failed, and why Venezuelans shouldn't do so.

[Arkinesia]

Bus driver president!

21st century socialism!

Man of the people!

Let's see what other silly excuses I can dig up…

[Novus America]

Ukraine has a lower crime rate and a better performing economy (Venezuela is that shitty, even shitty Ukraine is better), despite Russia's low intensity war against it. Yes Ukraine's democracy is deeply flawed. Though always has been. Yes it has oligarchs, but is not an absolute oligarchy and has elections, its president was elected, you might not like him but the people chose him. And he is flawed but no Nazi. But what the hell does this have to with Venezuela?

Lower crime rate when a country is all in all criminalized is hardly a big achievement. Ukrainian economy hardly exists, and Ukraine has to spend the little it gains to support the war effort. How's that a working country? Do you read my posts? It's president that got elected is in fact an oligarch, corrupt just as the one before. Russia also has elections? Does it make it a democracy? No. Did you read the quoted post above? Ukraine is just an example of how a liberal revolution failed, and why Venezuelans shouldn't do so.

Ukraine is shitty, but still doing less shitty than Venezuela.

And what are you trying to say here? The Maduro should stay in power because Ukraine is shitty? Despite it being totally different? That Venezuela should stay the worst performing economy in the world because you dislike the government of Ukraine?

Also many changes in government are successful, many not. But again it cannot get much worse for Venezuela.

[Empire of Narnia]

Damn right. Hella tight.

[New Werpland]

Not all liberal revolutions are the same. Georgia had a liberal revolution, and went from being a typical failed state to a country with little corruption and stable economic growth.

But regardless of whether or not you think the Ukrainians did the right thing, Ukraine is not Venezuela. The Donbass is not going to try and secede if Maduro gets couped and alleged Nazis are not going to take his place.

And yet most liberal revolutions are the same, transforming a typical failed state into an even more failed state.

Oh, did they? By ruining their capital, threwing out a corrupt president from the office only to replace him with a president just as corrupt? Like, hey guys, let's make a democratic revolution, it'll ruin our country economically, but it's worth it! Oh, did I mention the part where their favorite Americans refused to back them up and the Europeans not wanting to feed them by letting them into the EU? Honestly, this country was just deceived, and is now left all alone.
Of course, Venezuela is not Ukraine, Venezuela would be involved in an even worse civil war, this time, not without involvement of the USA.

Really now? I'd like to see proof from you that most liberal revolutions are failures.

No not really man. The capital was not ruined I don't get what you mean there, in fact it's much better now that everything there isn't dilapidated as it was before. Nor was the government more corrupt or even as corrupt. I mean only 4% of the population claimed to have paid a bribe in 2013! Foreign policy blunders aside, yea the country's much better off now. They might be alone, but they're certainly better off.

[Minoa]

Stevie Wonder?

Hehe. Hehehe.

But, yeah, I was sort of happy that it looked like Maduro's party would be voted out of power, I just knew it was too good to be true.

However, the "too good to be true" part must have certainly been caused by sheer desperation from the PSUV. They (the PSUV) know, that their mismanagement of the country after Chavez and over-dependency on oil for their interpretation of socialism will guarantee their loss, and it sounds that they are willing to go to all lengths and come up with plenty of excuses to stay in power.

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

I've been looking for an excuse to pull the lever on Trump. If he promises the liberation of Venezuela, I will vote for him in a heartbeat.

[Free Rhenish States]

Lower crime rate when a country is all in all criminalized is hardly a big achievement. Ukrainian economy hardly exists, and Ukraine has to spend the little it gains to support the war effort. How's that a working country? Do you read my posts? It's president that got elected is in fact an oligarch, corrupt just as the one before. Russia also has elections? Does it make it a democracy? No. Did you read the quoted post above? Ukraine is just an example of how a liberal revolution failed, and why Venezuelans shouldn't do so.

Ukraine is shitty, but still doing less shitty than Venezuela.

And what are you trying to say here? The Maduro should stay in power because Ukraine is shitty? Despite it being totally different? That Venezuela should stay the worst performing economy in the world because you dislike the government of Ukraine?

Also many changes in government are successful, many not. But again it cannot get much worse for Venezuela.

You don't seem to understand what I'm writing.

How exactly is Ukraine doing shitty when it has a war on its backyard? A war it can't win. Please, tell me. They live twice worse than they used to before revolution.

Don't exaggerate. I'm saying either Maduro stays, or Venezuelans change power peacefully, an ARMED REVOLUTION (since some fail to understand it if I don't capitalize it) is pointless. Such revolution will cost thousands of lives and will be uncontrollable, meaning it is unknown who will come to power, and such violent change of regime will most likely stir up a conter revolution or cause a civil war, Latin America is not known to be safer than Ukraine in any way. Ukraine was just an example of how retarded the idea of a liberal revolution is. After all, democracy is literally unimportant at all, no noble goal is achieved through doing such a revolution.

[Free Rhenish States]

And yet most liberal revolutions are the same, transforming a typical failed state into an even more failed state.

Oh, did they? By ruining their capital, threwing out a corrupt president from the office only to replace him with a president just as corrupt? Like, hey guys, let's make a democratic revolution, it'll ruin our country economically, but it's worth it! Oh, did I mention the part where their favorite Americans refused to back them up and the Europeans not wanting to feed them by letting them into the EU? Honestly, this country was just deceived, and is now left all alone.
Of course, Venezuela is not Ukraine, Venezuela would be involved in an even worse civil war, this time, not without involvement of the USA.

Really now? I'd like to see proof from you that most liberal revolutions are failures.

No not really man. The capital was not ruined I don't get what you mean there, in fact it's much better now that everything there isn't dilapidated as it was before. Nor was the government more corrupt or even as corrupt. I mean only 4% of the population claimed to have paid a bribe in 2013! Foreign policy blunders aside, yea the country's much better off now. They might be alone, but they're certainly better off.

How elusive. No, you go drone on about how Ukraine has become better these days.

Yes, their capital was ruined during the revolution, resulting in tons lost on its re-construction, but that´s nothing compared to everything else. The Ukrainian economy has worsened and their wages dropped drastically, making Ukrainians even poorer than they were before. The link you provided actually shows that it actually is as corrupt as it was before, if not any more, as it puts it between Bangladesh and Algeria. Hell, even my country is less corrupt than Ukraine according to that list, and that already says a lot. Besides, this particulr excerpt raises doubt:

for a small number of countries, including Brazil and Russia, data on particular questions has been excluded because of concerns about validity and reliability.

Ukrainians are just as "honest" as Russians, so it is obvious many probably just lied about not taking a bribe. However, the corruption I'm talking about goes far beyond this, since bribery is normal in the Post-Soviet society. The corruption I'm talking about is the governmental officials ruling in their favor and embezzling the budget money for themselves, this is common in the Ukraine and it hasn't gotten any better after the revolution. According to even the Ukrainian sources, the Yanukovich's party still has many sits in the parliament. The usefulness of this liberal revolution is just clear to see, for a liberal even.

[Novus America]

Ukraine is shitty, but still doing less shitty than Venezuela.

And what are you trying to say here? The Maduro should stay in power because Ukraine is shitty? Despite it being totally different? That Venezuela should stay the worst performing economy in the world because you dislike the government of Ukraine?

Also many changes in government are successful, many not. But again it cannot get much worse for Venezuela.

You don't seem to understand what I'm writing.

How exactly is Ukraine doing shitty when it has a war on its backyard? A war it can't win. Please, tell me. They live twice worse than they used to before revolution.

Don't exaggerate. I'm saying either Maduro stays, or Venezuelans change power peacefully, an ARMED REVOLUTION (since some fail to understand it if I don't capitalize it) is pointless. Such revolution will cost thousands of lives and will be uncontrollable, meaning it is unknown who will come to power, and such violent change of regime will most likely stir up a conter revolution or cause a civil war, Latin America is not known to be safer than Ukraine in any way. Ukraine was just an example of how retarded the idea of a liberal revolution is. After all, democracy is literally unimportant at all, no noble goal is achieved through doing such a revolution.

I think you do not understand what I am saying. Venezuela not Ukraine is the worst performing economy. This does not mean Ukraine is doing well. Just that Venezuela is performing worse.

And how should they take power peacefully?
The opposition won the congressional elections so the PSUV took away all power from congress. The tried to organize a recall, but that was canceled.
They hoped to win the local election but those are canceled as well.

So you are saying Maduro stays in power forever because he is not going to step down peacefully.
That a dictator merely has to refuse to step down and he can rule forever.

Yes violent revolution should only be a last resort, but it is getting to that point.
PSUV cannot stay in power, yet will not step down peacefully.

And many violent revolutions do lead to improvement. Ukraine is totally different and Ukraine is not the only country in the world. Also Venezuela is not going to get invaded by Russia either.

[Novus America]

Ukraine is shitty, but still doing less shitty than Venezuela.

And what are you trying to say here? The Maduro should stay in power because Ukraine is shitty? Despite it being totally different? That Venezuela should stay the worst performing economy in the world because you dislike the government of Ukraine?

Also many changes in government are successful, many not. But again it cannot get much worse for Venezuela.

You don't seem to understand what I'm writing.

How exactly is Ukraine doing shitty when it has a war on its backyard? A war it can't win. Please, tell me. They live twice worse than they used to before revolution.

Don't exaggerate. I'm saying either Maduro stays, or Venezuelans change power peacefully, an ARMED REVOLUTION (since some fail to understand it if I don't capitalize it) is pointless. Such revolution will cost thousands of lives and will be uncontrollable, meaning it is unknown who will come to power, and such violent change of regime will most likely stir up a conter revolution or cause a civil war, Latin America is not known to be safer than Ukraine in any way. Ukraine was just an example of how retarded the idea of a liberal revolution is. After all, democracy is literally unimportant at all, no noble goal is achieved through doing such a revolution.

I think you do not understand what I am saying. Venezuela not Ukraine is the worst performing economy. This does not mean Ukraine is doing well. Just that Venezuela is performing worse.

And how should they take power peacefully?
The opposition won the congressional elections so the PSUV took away all power from congress. The tried to organize a recall, but that was canceled.
They hoped to win the local election but those are canceled as well.

So you are saying Maduro stays in power forever because he is not going to step down peacefully.
That a dictator merely has to refuse to step down and he can rule forever.

Yes violent revolution should only be a last resort, but it is getting to that point.
PSUV cannot stay in power, yet will not step down peacefully.

People are literally starving, the medical system has collapsed. Violent gangs rule the streets. People already are dying:

And many violent revolutions do lead to improvement. Ukraine is totally different and Ukraine is not the only country in the world. Also Venezuela is not going to get invaded by Russia either.

[Gauthier]

I've been looking for an excuse to pull the lever on Trump. If he promises the liberation of Venezuela, I will vote for him in a heartbeat.

Like he promised to pay small businesses after they do something for him.

[New Werpland]

Really now? I'd like to see proof from you that most liberal revolutions are failures.

No not really man. The capital was not ruined I don't get what you mean there, in fact it's much better now that everything there isn't dilapidated as it was before. Nor was the government more corrupt or even as corrupt. I mean only 4% of the population claimed to have paid a bribe in 2013! Foreign policy blunders aside, yea the country's much better off now. They might be alone, but they're certainly better off.

How elusive. No, you go drone on about how Ukraine has become better these days.

Yes, their capital was ruined during the revolution, resulting in tons lost on its re-construction, but that´s nothing compared to everything else. The Ukrainian economy has worsened and their wages dropped drastically, making Ukrainians even poorer than they were before. The link you provided actually shows that it actually is as corrupt as it was before, if not any more, as it puts it between Bangladesh and Algeria. Hell, even my country is less corrupt than Ukraine according to that list, and that already says a lot. Besides, this particulr excerpt raises doubt:

for a small number of countries, including Brazil and Russia, data on particular questions has been excluded because of concerns about validity and reliability.

Ukrainians are just as "honest" as Russians, so it is obvious many probably just lied about not taking a bribe. However, the corruption I'm talking about goes far beyond this, since bribery is normal in the Post-Soviet society. The corruption I'm talking about is the governmental officials ruling in their favor and embezzling the budget money for themselves, this is common in the Ukraine and it hasn't gotten any better after the revolution. According to even the Ukrainian sources, the Yanukovich's party still has many sits in the parliament. The usefulness of this liberal revolution is just clear to see, for a liberal even.

You misunderstood me. I wasn't referring to Ukraine.

But it's shitposting anyway so.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

"Officially"...

You mean it wasn't already?!

[Collatis]

This is unfortunate, but I cannot say it's a surprise.

[Costa Fierro]

"Officially"...

You mean it wasn't already?!

Technically it was still an, albeit flawed, democracy.

[Seraven]

Civil War with anti-Maduro fighters using American weapons, if you catch my meaning.

If USA knows what benefits they can get from a pro-American Venezuela...

You don't seem to understand what I'm writing.

How exactly is Ukraine doing shitty when it has a war on its backyard? A war it can't win. Please, tell me. They live twice worse than they used to before revolution.

Don't exaggerate. I'm saying either Maduro stays, or Venezuelans change power peacefully, an ARMED REVOLUTION (since some fail to understand it if I don't capitalize it) is pointless. Such revolution will cost thousands of lives and will be uncontrollable, meaning it is unknown who will come to power, and such violent change of regime will most likely stir up a conter revolution or cause a civil war, Latin America is not known to be safer than Ukraine in any way. Ukraine was just an example of how retarded the idea of a liberal revolution is. After all, democracy is literally unimportant at all, no noble goal is achieved through doing such a revolution.

I think you do not understand what I am saying. Venezuela not Ukraine is the worst performing economy. This does not mean Ukraine is doing well. Just that Venezuela is performing worse.

And how should they take power peacefully?
The opposition won the congressional elections so the PSUV took away all power from congress. The tried to organize a recall, but that was canceled.
They hoped to win the local election but those are canceled as well.

So you are saying Maduro stays in power forever because he is not going to step down peacefully.
That a dictator merely has to refuse to step down and he can rule forever.

Yes violent revolution should only be a last resort, but it is getting to that point.
PSUV cannot stay in power, yet will not step down peacefully.

People are literally starving, the medical system has collapsed. Violent gangs rule the streets. People already are dying:

And many violent revolutions do lead to improvement. Ukraine is totally different and Ukraine is not the only country in the world. Also Venezuela is not going to get invaded by Russia either.

Venezuela getting invaded by another country is almost impossible. But a violent revolution supported by the country who MAY want to invade them or at least want to HAVE another friendly state to them is possible.

[Kilobugya]

Yeah, massive frauds (tens of thousands of dead people signing, ...), so the justice invalidates part of the signature and ask for a new (clean) collection to take place, that's dictatorship, sure. You know, that's call the "rule of law", if you cheat and commit fraud, things get invalidated. Everywhere else in the world, it would be normal, good work from the justice system. But in Venezuela, it's "dictatorship".

[Cynesera]

Bus driver president!

21st century socialism!

Man of the people!

Let's see what other silly excuses I can dig up…

If you think 2/3rds of industry privately owned is socialism, you have no idea what socialism entails.

[Bakery Hill]

You're certainly right. I just don't see it returning with an opposition victory.

It will probably have some changes, but the issues that need to be addressed will primarily be economic.

Ah haha well before you exact your sweet revenge let me try and clarify. On the opposition, granted it's a mixed bag, but it has some very unsavoury people in very influential positions. Here's some quick links I could find on it now. More specific research on key figures will take time for me to do.

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/09/vene ... -protests/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Vene ... at_attempt

So stuff that's about a coup attempt that happened 14 years ago? Given that Chavez himself launched two attempted coups in the 1990's, not sure what your point is.

On support of the people. Yes the opposition undoubtedly has majority support, or at least, Maduro that's to say has minority support because of his mismanaging of the government, economy etc. How little that minority is? That's hard to tell, opinion polls in situations like this are woefully inaccurate and often little more than psyops.

Not really. Latest polls have support at 22.1%, a nine month low apparently.

Rather than being some ignorant partisan from either side, I'm simply critiquing the prevailing narrative of evil tyrant vs the people. It's far more complicated than what the media is letting on. The extraordinary class component of the protests a few years ago confirmed that. We should view what's going on in Venezeula through that prism, because that's how the Chavista has consciously operated.

You could actually contribute to the conversation rather than fluffing your posts with abstracts and pretending to be "deep".

Not deep at all, rather a broad critique at how useless the neo-con or even liberal understanding of the situation is. You're right though, I need some more specific info to back that up when talking to people who hold those perspectives.

[Costa Fierro]

Yeah, massive frauds (tens of thousands of dead people signing, ...), so the justice invalidates part of the signature and ask for a new (clean) collection to take place, that's dictatorship, sure. You know, that's call the "rule of law", if you cheat and commit fraud, things get invalidated. Everywhere else in the world, it would be normal, good work from the justice system. But in Venezuela, it's "dictatorship".

You know, you don't have to get your news from TeleSUR.

[Lautrec-]

Hopefully it's the beginning of the end for Maduro and his cronies. These people have been sucking Venezuela dry for decades.

It's good and bad news, I believe. On one hand, the people of Venezuela seem to be ready to get rid of their socialist governors and join the rest of the world. Maybe that country with it's extreme amounts of wealth will finally see the prosperity it deserves. On the other hand Maduro will do everything in his power to remain a dictator and will kill many innocent people in the process.