NationStates

Senkaku wrote:

Galloism wrote:
Ralph, Anne, and John.

Unrelated: why do the people in these hypothetical scenarios y'all are coming up with always have incredibly boring Anglo names?

Comedic interlude: Only white people have time to debate this kind of thing,

Senkaku wrote:

Galloism wrote:
Ralph, Anne, and John.

Unrelated: why do the people in these hypothetical scenarios y'all are coming up with always have incredibly boring Anglo names?

Because if I use words over 6 or 7 letters long, he complains I'm making the scenarios too hard.

Killdash wrote:

Xerographica wrote:So, without unfairly summarising you, your premise is that if more people take up the study, you'll get both a control, (sort of) and the competition you desire. Am I right?
There's no control, just the competition. If enough people apply their ideal governments to classrooms... then, in theory, we should see a pattern

No control? So you never intended this as a real experiment, with a group of children who've not been exposed to these viewpoints acting as a marker to test your own result? Is it just meant to be a sort of ideological Hunger Games?

I really don't know how to improve on my explanation in the OP. We've seen the devastating consequences of people applying their ideal governments to countries. Therefore, let's apply our ideal governments to classrooms. If the teacher observes anything potentially harmful, then she can stop applying the government to the classroom. It will be informative to see which systems of government do the best when applied to classrooms.

Killdash wrote:This hasn't answered the basic, and to me, biggest problem in your theory. What about the people who aren't qualified? Let's use another example, and I'll be fair, and pick on myself. I'm not an economist. Sure, I've had a basic overview, it's a subject I'm trying to learn more about, but if you asked me to draft a modern fiscal budget or something, I wouldn't have a clue how to do it. Worse, even if you showed me a full analysis, with charts and math, I wouldn't be able to say which was better without being told. So I might not be motivated to pay for it. So far, so good. Except, I really don't like the idealism of communism. So if it sounded communistical, I might spend money voting against it. But I don't know for sure, this could actually be the best way forward, and it's even possible that it's not even a communistical plan. But my ignorance is detrimental, and if there were enough people like me, we might even actually cause something stupid. It'd be the same with climate change, separation of church and state and maybe even some things we currently consider "human rights". How do you plan to protect these? Do you? And if so, what's the justification?

Generally, if somebody is entirely unqualified to fix their plumbing problems, but they don't realize how unqualified they are, then they waste their own time and money trying to fix a problem that they aren't qualified to fix. But this logically means that they will pay less taxes. And, in a pragmatarian system, this means that they would have less influence in the public sector.

You can argue that it's better that people are not given the opportunity to waste their time/money trying to fix problems that they aren't qualified to fix. But this really isn't what you're arguing. Because if it was, then you would be arguing that elected representatives should be able to spend ALL our money.

In a pragmatarian system, congresspeople would still be there. You don't think that you're qualified to spend your taxes? Fine. Don't. Just give your taxes to congress. You think that you are qualified to spend your taxes but you actually are not? Then chances are good that you won't have very many taxes to spend. It can't be the case that this is the very first time that you've incorrectly assessed your qualifications (or lack thereof).

Killdash wrote:I wonder why one of the smarter kids hasn't just put a big stake on "field trip" or "abolish school" yet? That would be quite rich, pardon the pun.

It doesn't make sense for the kids to use coasianism when their spending decisions won't actually determine the outcome.

Killdash wrote:And while I'm aware of that time argument, I have an answer before you accuse me of tying my waggon to the tired, old, conservative nag. It's not my argument. It's what I imagine yours to be. Because, other than longevity, what criteria do you use to evaluate a systems success? And if so, where do these criteria come from?

There's always room for improvement.

Killdash wrote:Not quite true. Yes, in a representative democracy, my direct voice may not be so heard, in fact it may sound quite quiet by comparison, and sometimes that's probably better.However, if I really feel like I've got an issue, I can take proactive steps to make things change. I can rally, talk, blog, even run for office myself. All of that to change votes, and get them where I want them. This also strikes me as more productive than literally putting in your two cents in every issue.

Well this is pretty incoherent. You were just arguing that you were unqualified but now you're arguing that you are qualified.

Here's my favorite nutshell...

Xerographica wrote:You expect congress to make public goods choices with due consideration for my wellbeing. My wellbeing? In the private sector I have to spend so much time and energy going around telling producers what works for my wellbeing. I shop and shop and shop. For example, I go to the store and buy some artichokes. In doing so I tell Frank the farmer, "Hey! You correctly guessed that my wellbeing depends on artichokes! Thanks! Good lookin' out! Here's some money! Keep up the good work!"

Yet here you are telling me that congress can know what works for my wellbeing despite the fact that I've never once in my life shopped in the public sector. It boggles my mind. It blows my mind. It bears repeating with emphasis... congress can know what works for my wellbeing despite the fact that I've never once in my life shopped in the public sector. If you even suspect that this is true... then please... don't hide your insight under a bushel. Start a thread here, there and everywhere and say "Hey folks! Shopping is entirely redundant! It's entirely unnecessary for us to spend so much of our limited time and energy using our cash to communicate what works for our wellbeing."

Killdash wrote:

Senkaku wrote:Unrelated: why do the people in these hypothetical scenarios y'all are coming up with always have incredibly boring Anglo names?

Comedic interlude: Only white people have time to debate this kind of thing,

Come on, do you really think we'd take the scenario seriously if their names were Abdul, Hassan, and Fatima, or would it immediately devolve into "Abdul and Hassan would settle it with suicide bombings, and Fatima doesn't get a say because she's a woman"?

Xerographica wrote:

Killdash wrote:
No control? So you never intended this as a real experiment, with a group of children who've not been exposed to these viewpoints acting as a marker to test your own result? Is it just meant to be a sort of ideological Hunger Games?

I really don't know how to improve on my explanation in the OP. We've seen the devastating consequences of people applying their ideal governments to countries. Therefore, let's apply our ideal governments to classrooms. If the teacher observes anything potentially harmful, then she can stop applying the government to the classroom. It will be informative to see which systems of government do the best when applied to classrooms.
*snip*

This betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of what the classroom, and more broadly what the school, is for. No generalizable information could be gathered from this kind of bullshittery.

Xerographica wrote:I really don't know how to improve on my explanation in the OP. We've seen the devastating consequences of people applying their ideal governments to countries. Therefore, let's apply our ideal governments to classrooms. If the teacher observes anything potentially harmful, then she can stop applying the government to the classroom. It will be informative to see which systems of government do the best when applied to classrooms.

Because first classrooms do not match real world scenarios and therefore studying it in the classroom does not go to show it will work in the real world. if it fails in the classroom that does not mean it fails in the real world, if it succeeds in the classroom that does not mean it will fail in the real world. Second because there is no way to know why it did or did not work in the classroom, including whether it was the system that worked or something else that worked and the system was incidental. Without controls there are so many variables that you have no way of knowing. This "test" will tell you absolutely nothing.

Neutraligon wrote:

Xerographica wrote:I really don't know how to improve on my explanation in the OP. We've seen the devastating consequences of people applying their ideal governments to countries. Therefore, let's apply our ideal governments to classrooms. If the teacher observes anything potentially harmful, then she can stop applying the government to the classroom. It will be informative to see which systems of government do the best when applied to classrooms.

Because first classrooms do not match real world scenarios and therefore studying it in the classroom does not go to show it will work in the real world. if it fails in the classroom that does not mean it fails in the real world, if it succeeds in the classroom that does not mean it will fail in the real world. Second because there is no way to know why it did or did not work in the classroom, including whether it was the system that worked or something else that worked and the system was incidental. Without controls there are so many variables that you have no way of knowing. This "test" will tell you absolutely nothing.

Well, Gallo tried it in the real world.

And his friends saw right through it...

The Two Jerseys wrote:

Neutraligon wrote:
Because first classrooms do not match real world scenarios and therefore studying it in the classroom does not go to show it will work in the real world. if it fails in the classroom that does not mean it fails in the real world, if it succeeds in the classroom that does not mean it will fail in the real world. Second because there is no way to know why it did or did not work in the classroom, including whether it was the system that worked or something else that worked and the system was incidental. Without controls there are so many variables that you have no way of knowing. This "test" will tell you absolutely nothing.

Well, Gallo tried it in the real world.

And his friends saw right through it...

True, that is one very small sample size, but still true.

Neutraligon wrote:

The Two Jerseys wrote:Well, Gallo tried it in the real world.

And his friends saw right through it...

True, that is one very small sample size, but still true.

We're going to do a bigger one starting on the 31st. I've got 29 students in two classes that are going to try this system, testing herd mentality and its effect on the system.

There's also going to be weekly surveys on how this game decision making apparatus affects their desire to come to class, whether it calms, excites, or deters. I will also include the daily weather since the thing being bid on is whether or not to have class outside in the gazebo or inside in the classroom.

There will also be a survey at the end asking if they liked this method of gambling making decisions or if they would prefer some other method, and if they would prefer some other method, to describe that method.

You know? 4th grade nation-state is a really fitting title as to what this experiment of Xero actually is.

Because it does sound like a 4th grader actually came up with the idea in the first place.

Galloism wrote:

Neutraligon wrote:True, that is one very small sample size, but still true.

We're going to do a bigger one starting on the 31st. I've got 29 students in two classes that are going to try this system, testing herd mentality and its effect on the system.

There's also going to be weekly surveys on how this game decision making apparatus affects their desire to come to class, whether it calms, excites, or deters. I will also include the daily weather since the thing being bid on is whether or not to have class outside in the gazebo or inside in the classroom.

There will also be a survey at the end asking if they liked this method of gambling making decisions or if they would prefer some other method, and if they would prefer some other method, to describe that method.

Partway though will one of the classes be told about the "trick"?

Neutraligon wrote:

Galloism wrote:We're going to do a bigger one starting on the 31st. I've got 29 students in two classes that are going to try this system, testing herd mentality and its effect on the system.

There's also going to be weekly surveys on how this game decision making apparatus affects their desire to come to class, whether it calms, excites, or deters. I will also include the daily weather since the thing being bid on is whether or not to have class outside in the gazebo or inside in the classroom.

There will also be a survey at the end asking if they liked this method of gambling making decisions or if they would prefer some other method, and if they would prefer some other method, to describe that method.

Partway though will one of the classes be told about the "trick"?

Well, in the morning class, the professor will be part of the game - injecting himself into the experiment. It won't be told to the class, but there's a question of whether they will follow the lead of someone who is winning the game monetarily. That part of the herd mentality (the professor also abides by a strict "only hedging" rule).

The afternoon class will be left to their own devices.

Galloism wrote:

Neutraligon wrote:Partway though will one of the classes be told about the "trick"?

Well, in the morning class, the professor will be part of the game - injecting himself into the experiment. It won't be told to the class, but there's a question of whether they will follow the lead of someone who is winning the game monetarily. That part of the herd mentality (the professor also abides by a strict "only hedging" rule).

The afternoon class will be left to their own devices.

Is it really herd mentality if people see the advantage of doing it a certain way and decide to also do it that way? I mean I guess it is but that is not normally how I see the term used.

Neutraligon wrote:

Galloism wrote:Well, in the morning class, the professor will be part of the game - injecting himself into the experiment. It won't be told to the class, but there's a question of whether they will follow the lead of someone who is winning the game monetarily. That part of the herd mentality (the professor also abides by a strict "only hedging" rule).

The afternoon class will be left to their own devices.

Is it really herd mentality if people see the advantage of doing it a certain way and decide to also do it that way? I mean I guess it is but that is not normally how I see the term used.

Well, there's a question of acceleration.

Galloism wrote:

Neutraligon wrote:Is it really herd mentality if people see the advantage of doing it a certain way and decide to also do it that way? I mean I guess it is but that is not normally how I see the term used.

Well, there's a question of acceleration.

True. I mean the more people who do it the more visible it is, but how do you tell the difference between seeing a good idea and copying and doing it because others are doing it? I guess they could be asked the reason they chose the strategy they are choosing.

Neutraligon wrote:

Galloism wrote:Well, there's a question of acceleration.

True. I mean the more people who do it the more visible it is, but how do you tell the difference between seeing a good idea and copying and doing it because others are doing it? I guess they could be asked the reason they chose the strategy they are choosing.

Well, each bid is supposed to be accompanied by a few words describing why, but those reasonings aren't shared with the class. They're part of the notes.

(I will be including those reasonings)

Galloism wrote:

Neutraligon wrote:True. I mean the more people who do it the more visible it is, but how do you tell the difference between seeing a good idea and copying and doing it because others are doing it? I guess they could be asked the reason they chose the strategy they are choosing.

Well, each bid is supposed to be accompanied by a few words describing why, but those reasonings aren't shared with the class. They're part of the notes.

(I will be including those reasonings)

That will be interesting.

Neutraligon wrote:

Galloism wrote:Well, each bid is supposed to be accompanied by a few words describing why, but those reasonings aren't shared with the class. They're part of the notes.

(I will be including those reasonings)

That will be interesting.

Btw, and this may come as no surprise to you, when the information is passed to me identifying information will be wiped. I won't have names, ages, races or even genders of the students.

Not the way I'd like it, but it's the way it has to be.

Galloism wrote:

Neutraligon wrote:That will be interesting.

Btw, and this may come as no surprise to you, when the information is passed to me identifying information will be wiped. I won't have names, ages, races or even genders of the students.

Not the way I'd like it, but it's the way it has to be.

I see why they would do that though. Not that I agree with it because we'd know better with race, gender, and ages what the valuations of these people are across a wide spectrum, but I get why.

My only question would be: your methodology is sound. Do you have any hypotheses regarding the results of this test as to whether or not you will see the same results as you did with your friends?

Galloism wrote:

Neutraligon wrote:That will be interesting.

Btw, and this may come as no surprise to you, when the information is passed to me identifying information will be wiped. I won't have names, ages, races or even genders of the students.

Not the way I'd like it, but it's the way it has to be.

I can understand names, but the rest seems a little strange to wipe.

Galloism wrote:

Neutraligon wrote:True, that is one very small sample size, but still true.

We're going to do a bigger one starting on the 31st. I've got 29 students in two classes that are going to try this system, testing herd mentality and its effect on the system.

There's also going to be weekly surveys on how this game decision making apparatus affects their desire to come to class, whether it calms, excites, or deters. I will also include the daily weather since the thing being bid on is whether or not to have class outside in the gazebo or inside in the classroom.

There will also be a survey at the end asking if they liked this method of gambling making decisions or if they would prefer some other method, and if they would prefer some other method, to describe that method.

Halfway through the experiment, are you going to replicate Xero's process and start auctioning off the slips of paper from the inside of fortune cookies, or are you going to stay on target?

Neutraligon wrote:

Galloism wrote:Btw, and this may come as no surprise to you, when the information is passed to me identifying information will be wiped. I won't have names, ages, races or even genders of the students.

Not the way I'd like it, but it's the way it has to be.

I can understand names, but the rest seems a little strange to wipe.

I understand why.

Gallo knows this professor. So, him giving Gallo PID like sex, age, and gender might not be the best idea considering confidentiality of students.

I know Gallo isn't gonna do something with that information, but I suppose that's school policy at the college.

The Two Jerseys wrote:

Galloism wrote:We're going to do a bigger one starting on the 31st. I've got 29 students in two classes that are going to try this system, testing herd mentality and its effect on the system.

There's also going to be weekly surveys on how this game decision making apparatus affects their desire to come to class, whether it calms, excites, or deters. I will also include the daily weather since the thing being bid on is whether or not to have class outside in the gazebo or inside in the classroom.

There will also be a survey at the end asking if they liked this method of gambling making decisions or if they would prefer some other method, and if they would prefer some other method, to describe that method.

Halfway through the experiment, are you going to replicate Xero's process and start auctioning off the slips of paper from the inside of fortune cookies, or are you going to stay on target?

Heh.

No. We're going to keep this as... pure... as practical. So to speak.

Galloism wrote:

The Two Jerseys wrote:Halfway through the experiment, are you going to replicate Xero's process and start auctioning off the slips of paper from the inside of fortune cookies, or are you going to stay on target?

Heh.

No. We're going to keep this as... pure... as practical. So to speak.

Is it going to be a closed system, with a finite amount of money, or an open system where external money will count towards the experiment?

Soldati Senza Confini wrote:

Galloism wrote:Heh.

No. We're going to keep this as... pure... as practical. So to speak.

Is it going to be a closed system, with a finite amount of money, or an open system where external money will count towards the experiment?

Closed. For scientific purposes, it matches as close as possible to the original conditions of Xero's 'experiment', before he let his ideology corrupt the methodology.