EU army vs. NATO

[Pope Joan]

Some say that the EU was glad to see the UK exit the union, since it would open the way for the promotion of an EU army (including Turkey!?)

UK Defense Minister Fallon warns that such an army would dangerously undermine the effectiveness of NATO.

http://www.politico.eu/article/britain- ... el-fallon/

Can there be two such entities at the same time? Must one succeed while the other fails? Will the US end up on the outside looking in?

I think the EU might well want to squeeze out the UK and USA, but I do not think this ploy will succeed. They are too divided, and economically stressed. There are too many internal political and cultural stresses within the member nations also.

[The Princes of the Universe]

An EU military with Turkey in it would be a ticking time bomb waiting to explode right in Brussels' face. Erdogan cannot be trusted at all. Not that I back NATO's continued existence since its raison d'être expired in 1991, but since I'm not in charge of that, NATO would do well to boot Turkey before they blunder it into a war with Russia.

[Pope Joan]

An EU military with Turkey in it would be a ticking time bomb waiting to explode right in Brussels' face. Erdogan cannot be trusted at all. Not that I back NATO's continued existence since its raison d'être expired in 1991, but since I'm not in charge of that, NATO would do well to boot Turkey before they blunder it into a war with Russia.

Did you see that Moody's rated Turkey's bonds as "junk"?
That does not bespeak stability.

[The Princes of the Universe]

An EU military with Turkey in it would be a ticking time bomb waiting to explode right in Brussels' face. Erdogan cannot be trusted at all. Not that I back NATO's continued existence since its raison d'être expired in 1991, but since I'm not in charge of that, NATO would do well to boot Turkey before they blunder it into a war with Russia.

Did you see that Moody's rated Turkey's bonds as "junk"?
That does not bespeak stability.

Perhaps they ought not to have written off the House of Osman so quickly after the Great War.

[Memovia]

I'm for EU army if Turkey is not in it.

[FelrikTheDeleted]

I don't like the idea of an EU Army, it will turn the EU into a superstate, something of which I think should be avoided.

[Pope Joan]

I don't like the idea of an EU Army, it will turn the EU into a superstate, something of which I think should be avoided.

I predict unrest in places like Greece and Hungary (so different otherwise), which might lead to the use of occupying forces, in a worst-case scenario.
I agree, super-states do not work.

[Ifreann]

I'm sure Britain's thoughts about the EU's future will be given all due consideration in Brussels before being stored with the rest of the toilet paper.

[Purpelia]

The EU does not need an army. And the world does not need OTAN. The first is another step on the disastrous horrific road toward a hegemonic one nation Europe and the later is the auxiliary army of america. The EU needs to stay the way it is and OTAN needs to die.

[Sassinia]

Turkey? Not with Erdogan in power.

[Ifreann]

I don't like the idea of an EU Army, it will turn the EU into a superstate, something of which I think should be avoided.

I predict unrest in places like Greece and Hungary (so different otherwise), which might lead to the use of occupying forces, in a worst-case scenario.
I agree, super-states do not work.

Yeah, you can't have a country spanning an entire continent. That's just impossible.

[Sassinia]

I predict unrest in places like Greece and Hungary (so different otherwise), which might lead to the use of occupying forces, in a worst-case scenario.
I agree, super-states do not work.

Yeah, you can't have a country spanning an entire continent. That's just impossible.

People from the future will laugh at you.

[Valaran]

NATO doesn't currently consider the possibility of an EU force a threat (for various reasons). Its mostly Fallon messing around - a lot of what he said wasn't repeated by other people at the meeting, or couldn't be verified, or was played down by both EU and NATO figures.

Also, given Turkey's entry into the EU is currently a non-starter, I' not even sure why that's being put into the poll or otherwise mentioned.

[Imperializt Russia]

I don't like the idea of an EU Army, it will turn the EU into a superstate, something of which I think should be avoided.

I disagree, it's also one of the founding principles of the EU.

The issue here is that most people seem to believe that an "EU army will remove the national armies of all EU states". This is an unreasonable interpretation of the scenario. After all, NATO hasn't removed the national armies of the NATO states, at all.

What an "EU army" will be, will be a great expansion of the roles of the already-existing "EU battlegroups", small multinational forces of roughly Battalion-size in areas of Eastern Europe. An "EU Army" would present a defensive line in Eastern Europe against Russia, as a multinational force. It will comprise parts of the EU member states' forces, but isn't going to disband their national armies at all.
If "the EU" as NATO had to mobilise, that's exactly where they'd go in the first place.

The only time the EU would actually disband "national armies" would be if an EU superstate was actually formed. And it still wouldn't be a complete abolition, because each state would then contribute its own local military, to the EU forces. It'd be like the US.

[Great Nepal]

...why will there be a competition? NATO already consists of member states armies with various command structure within it, an EU army will simply be a superset of 27 army's command structure and subset of NATO command structure. In a matter involving NATO, NATO command structure will issue instructions to EU army just as it'd to other members armies and the EU command structure is responsible for issuing instructions to various members, if NATO isn't involved but EU is the EU structure will come up with instructions and issue them to member states, if neither NATO nor EU is involved but member states are they'll issue instructions to their divisions. Since national army divisions don't have sovereignty over foreign affairs we can't go any further.

In any event EU army would be a positive thing, not necessarily for the army part but because it'd represent further union in the union; a step towards federal Europe.

[Aelex]

Lol no. People in Europe are already against the E.U in general so disbanding national armies to replace them with an "E.U one"? Ain't gonna happen.
Not that we would actually even consider doing it in the first place since we need our army to protect our interests and influence in our old colonies, especially in Afrique.

[Cymrea]

I think if France and Germany pull out of NATO to start their EU military, the US might threaten to pull out as well. Most of the NATO members can't or won't spend the recommended percentage of their GDP on their militaries. If France and Germany allow them to join the EU military with reduced budgets, they may find themselves inadequate to deterring outside threats. The US would threaten pull out to either frighten some of them into staying with NATO - in which case, the US asserts more influence than ever; or the US does pull out and reorganises their own revised version of NATO. In contrast, I could see Russia putting together their own alliance and bullying/attracting eastern European nations into joining.

[Purpelia]

I disagree, it's also one of the founding principles of the EU.

Easy for you to say. You got out in time.

[Imperializt Russia]

Lol no. People in Europe are already against the E.U in general so disbanding national armies to replace them with an "E.U one"? Ain't gonna happen.
Not that we would actually even consider doing it in the first place since we need our army to protect our interests and influence in our old colonies, especially in Afrique.

I just fucking explained that this isn't what's going to happen, at fucking all.

[Imperializt Russia]

I disagree, it's also one of the founding principles of the EU.

Easy for you to say. You got out in time.

Dragged kicking and screaming against my most violent protest.

[Ifreann]

Lol no. People in Europe are already against the E.U in general so disbanding national armies to replace them with an "E.U one"? Ain't gonna happen.

Who said it would? Other than people who don't want it to happen, of course.

[Pope Joan]

I predict unrest in places like Greece and Hungary (so different otherwise), which might lead to the use of occupying forces, in a worst-case scenario.
I agree, super-states do not work.

Yeah, you can't have a country spanning an entire continent. That's just impossible.

Are the cultures and histories of that continent so homogenous, then? Poles adore Germans, and so on?

[Aelex]

Who said it would? Other than people who don't want it to happen, of course.

Except there is a long term risk that it indeed could happen as the E.U do is pushing to create a Super State no one but a bunch of liberals want of.

[Ifreann]

I think if France and Germany pull out of NATO to start their EU military...

Where are you people getting these idea?

---

Yeah, you can't have a country spanning an entire continent. That's just impossible.

Are the cultures and histories of that continent so homogenous, then?

Is the culture and history of any nation homogeneous?

Poles adore Germans, and so on?

Do people have to adore everyone they share a country with?

[New Werpland]

An EU military with Turkey in it would be a ticking time bomb waiting to explode right in Brussels' face. Erdogan cannot be trusted at all. Not that I back NATO's continued existence since its raison d'être expired in 1991, but since I'm not in charge of that, NATO would do well to boot Turkey before they blunder it into a war with Russia.

You know Erdogan just recently called Putin a good friend?