What if: Your country becomes a Leninist/Maoist country?

[Eol Sha]

Uh huh. Right.

Not untrue, the state is, by definition, an instrument of dominance and violence.

You can consider me unsympathetic to your talking points when you consider elections to be meaningless spectacle.

[Eol Sha]

Communist government aren't too keen on emigration.

I have enough scrap metal and condemned vehicles in my yard to build a homemade tank which I will then proceed to use to smash my way through every roadblock between here and the border if I have to.

I don't think you'll get very far. Planes are pretty good at taking out tanks and most roadblocks have guards.

[Cedoria]

Not untrue, the state is, by definition, an instrument of dominance and violence.

You can consider me unsympathetic to your talking points when you consider elections to be meaningless spectacle.

I did not say they were meaningless, I said that they do not make fundamental changes.

There are small differences that elections can be bring out (who appoints Supreme Court Justices in the US, for instance), they're not unimportant, but the fundamental structures of oppression, violence and domination are not changed just by pushing a button in a ballot box every few years.

i did not claim they were meaningless, but they aren't the way to make fundamental changes.

[Eol Sha]

You can consider me unsympathetic to your talking points when you consider elections to be meaningless spectacle.

I did not say they were meaningless, I said that they do not make fundamental changes.

There are small differences that elections can be bring out (who appoints Supreme Court Justices in the US, for instance), they're not unimportant, but the fundamental structures of oppression, violence and domination are not changed just by pushing a button in a ballot box every few years.

i did not claim they were meaningless, but they aren't the way to make fundamental changes.

I know you didn't. NST did. Should have made that clearer.

Anyways, I don't think you're wrong. Well, mostly.

[Arcturus Novus]

I personally disagree with Lenin's interpretations of Marxist thought and his methods of retaining power after the October Revolution. And offsite, my dislike of Mao is well-documented. However, I'd prefer an MLM state over whatever Clinton or Trump have in store, so bring it on.

[Constantinopolis]

I also have every intention of being able to choose my career. Not get assigned a role by the state.

Except for short periods of time in a very small number of cases (e.g. China during the Cultural Revolution), Marxist-Leninist states did NOT assign jobs to people against their will. Rather, the way it worked was essentially that you were presented with a number of options based on your education and skills (and based on your grades at university, in the case of those with a university degree), and you got to pick one of these options. For university graduates, the higher your grades, the more options you got to choose from.

Also I own a car, which is my private property. I don't mind sharing some of my things with others but the car must remain my property.

No Marxist-Leninist government ever nationalized private cars. Or furniture, or home appliances, or... anything smaller than a house, really.

[Grand Britannia]

Time to dust off some guns and join the rebellion.

[Korouse]

Clearly you weren't alive - or at least paying attention, during any sort of recession.

You are fundamentally wrong. Banks don't go bankrupt because of possibilities or statistics. The latest recession was a result of irresponsible government policies and government's failure to supervise the big players. The stock markets are a different thing, in which I do agree, that they are entirely wrong.

I'm not talking about the banks. I'm talking about your "average" businesses during these ups and downs. They're completely at the hands of the market. Who does and doesn't fail falls on a variety of factors than just "hard work" and such an idealized view is preposterous.

[Jankau-Helmutsberg]

You believe we have a market economy?

Who "we"? I believe we do live in different countries. I'm satisfied with mine.

The lucky always imagine that it was their "hard work" or "determination" that made them superior to the unlucky. People don't want to admit to themselves how little control they actually have over their lives, and how much is due to chance and outside factors.

Somehow, the majority of people who put these values high in their lives eventually end up better off. Gamblers and casino winners fill a small percentile in comparison to SMEs and people who work up to 13 hours a day purely out of their need for self-realization.

Psychological studies have shown that people possessing orderly and ambitious personalities earn more in comparison to the artisans and theoreticians. These are the people who statistically succeed financially more often. Even MBTI reflects this. The healthy capitalist system prizes hard work and determination.

[Krasny-Volny]

I have enough scrap metal and condemned vehicles in my yard to build a homemade tank which I will then proceed to use to smash my way through every roadblock between here and the border if I have to.

I don't think you'll get very far. Planes are pretty good at taking out tanks and most roadblocks have guards.

Bullets from small arms bounce from my impervious armored tank (well, at least I hope they will).

And if they're wasting tens of thousands of dollars on the fuel and prepping it would take to get a combat aircraft into the sky specifically to take me out I guess they've earned the right. But I doubt it will happen. The border is literally two hours away from my doorstep. They'll need more time than that to authorize the use of the aircraft and get it off the runway since it's not an issue of immediate national defense. And that's someone sees me right off the bat, which they won't if I drive under the cover of forest part of the way.

If a guard at a roadblock has an RPG or something else that goes boom then I'd be fucked. Again I doubt it. I've been through some military roadblocks in some pretty authoritarian countries (Israel, Jordan, Burma anyone?) and the most I've seen was a machine gun.

[Jankau-Helmutsberg]

I'm not talking about the banks. I'm talking about your "average" businesses during these ups and downs. They're completely at the hands of the market. Who does and doesn't fail falls on a variety of factors than just "hard work" and such an idealized view is preposterous.

How does an "average" business care about the market? They care about how much they have to buy, how much they have to sell and how much tax they have to pay. In terms of competition, there are antitrust laws which ensure it is fair.

[Krasny-Volny]

I also have every intention of being able to choose my career. Not get assigned a role by the state.

Except for short periods of time in a very small number of cases (e.g. China during the Cultural Revolution), Marxist-Leninist states did NOT assign jobs to people against their will. Rather, the way it worked was essentially that you were presented with a number of options based on your education and skills (and based on your grades at university, in the case of those with a university degree), and you got to pick one of these options. For university graduates, the higher your grades, the more options you got to choose from.

Also I own a car, which is my private property. I don't mind sharing some of my things with others but the car must remain my property.

No Marxist-Leninist government ever nationalized private cars. Or furniture, or home appliances, or... anything smaller than a house, really.

Well yeah but I'm not sure whether this hypothetical is a textbook classless Marxist society in its final stage or just the typical communist-professing Warsaw Pact type state we've already seen plenty of precedents for. Knowing Socialist Tera it could be either.

[Natapoc]

Time to dust off some guns and join the rebellion.

Terrorism: A great way to solidify public opinion against your cause and ensure no one cries for you at your tribunal. The media will have the crying mothers of your victims playing non stop, generating public rage against you. Those who would have been sympathetic to your cause will start to see you as monster.

This never works unless you have popular support which the referendum guarantees you don't have.

[Constantinopolis]

Psychological studies have shown that people possessing orderly and ambitious personalities earn more in comparison to the artisans and theoreticians. These are the people who statistically succeed financially more often. Even MBTI reflects this. The healthy capitalist system prizes hard work and determination.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "people possessing orderly and ambitious personalities", but if that's a euphemism for being a psychopath, then bingo, you got it.

Because yes, psychological studies have shown that being a psychopath (that is, lacking normal human empathy) is a major factor in becoming rich.

So I guess you could say that the healthy capitalist system prizes being a ruthless exploiter of your fellow man.

[Korouse]

I'm not talking about the banks. I'm talking about your "average" businesses during these ups and downs. They're completely at the hands of the market. Who does and doesn't fail falls on a variety of factors than just "hard work" and such an idealized view is preposterous.

How does an "average" business care about the market? They care about how much they have to buy, how much they have to sell and how much tax they have to pay. In terms of competition, there are antitrust laws which ensure it is fair.

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/ec ... siness.asp

Less consumer spending, less money for employees, less manpower for growth, etc.

[Eol Sha]

Time to dust off some guns and join the rebellion.

Terrorism: A great way to solidify public opinion against your cause and ensure no one cries for you at your tribunal. The media will have the crying mothers of your victims playing non stop, generating public rage against you. Those who would have been sympathetic to your cause will start to see you as monster.

This never works unless you have popular support which the referendum guarantees you don't have.

Well, depends on how close the referendum is.

[Krasny-Volny]

Time to dust off some guns and join the rebellion.

Terrorism: A great way to solidify public opinion against your cause and ensure no one cries for you at your tribunal. The media will have the crying mothers of your victims playing non stop, generating public rage against you. Those who would have been sympathetic to your cause will start to see you as monster.

This never works unless you have popular support which the referendum guarantees you don't have.

One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

[Grand Britannia]

Time to dust off some guns and join the rebellion.

Terrorism: A great way to solidify public opinion against your cause and ensure no one cries for you at your tribunal. The media will have the crying mothers of your victims playing non stop, generating public rage against you. Those who would have been sympathetic to your cause will start to see you as monster.

This never works unless you have popular support which the referendum guarantees you don't have.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter confirmed.

[Grand Britannia]

Terrorism: A great way to solidify public opinion against your cause and ensure no one cries for you at your tribunal. The media will have the crying mothers of your victims playing non stop, generating public rage against you. Those who would have been sympathetic to your cause will start to see you as monster.

This never works unless you have popular support which the referendum guarantees you don't have.

One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

Goddamn.

[Jankau-Helmutsberg]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "people possessing orderly and ambitious personalities", but if that's a euphemism for being a psychopath, then bingo, you got it.

Because yes, psychological studies have shown that being a psychopath (that is, lacking normal human empathy) is a major factor in becoming rich.

So I guess you could say that the healthy capitalist system prizes being a ruthless exploiter of your fellow man.

Are we talking about becoming rich or are we talking about making a comfortable living? Mind I was never protecting the elite classes in my argument. I stand for the middle and upper-middle classes, which I currently belong to. They are the social classes every business-starting entrepreneur aims to become or remain a member of. No man of mature mind wants to become rich, as it almost always corrupts.

[Socialist Tera]

Terrorism: A great way to solidify public opinion against your cause and ensure no one cries for you at your tribunal. The media will have the crying mothers of your victims playing non stop, generating public rage against you. Those who would have been sympathetic to your cause will start to see you as monster.

This never works unless you have popular support which the referendum guarantees you don't have.

Well, depends on how close the referendum is.

75- yes 25 no

[Socialist Tera]

I created this topic to get some data to prove myself that capitalists are just as violent as communists. Hell, you don't see me violently trying to overthrow the state, do you? Before you say that's because this state is not tyrannical, it is because I want popular support and to help the population rather than sabotaging with bombs.

[Natapoc]

I created this topic to get some data to prove myself that capitalists are just as violent as communists. Hell, you don't see me violently trying to overthrow the state, do you? Before you say that's because this state is not tyrannical, it is because I want popular support and to help the population rather than sabotaging with bombs.

Capitalism is an inherently violent system. Of course capitalists are more violent than communists.

[Washington Resistance Army]

I created this topic to get some data to prove myself that capitalists are just as violent as communists. Hell, you don't see me violently trying to overthrow the state, do you? Before you say that's because this state is not tyrannical, it is because I want popular support and to help the population rather than sabotaging with bombs.

Only reason I would get violent against such a state is because it would likely try to kill me and take my stuff.

Plus it would probably be an authoritarian hellhole and those always deserve to go.

[Jankau-Helmutsberg]

Less consumer spending, less money for employees, less manpower for growth, etc.

So, in light of your first argument, how is this statistics and possibilities? It's hard facts. Negative effects and positive effects on business. That's why there's government intervention to the market, to ensure proper business environment is there for all the starters.