NationStates

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:14 am**

Catalonia Imparapla wrote:
Nariterrr wrote:1) It is a city, which is also a holy site

2) It is, but discrimination in holy site for tourist safety reasons is different from discrimination in a whole nation

Jerusalem (the country, not the city) was also considered the "Holy Land" some time ago, was it not? People go on pilgrimage there as well, from Christians to Jews, too, so not only one religion.

And yet, Muslims aren't banned from entering Israel due to "tourist safety reasons", are they?

Still, I am not blaming Islam for the discrimination in Meccah, but Saudi Arabia, and more specifically the House of Saud. It is well known that they're financing extremist Islam movements, and not only in the west. Forty years ago, the Middle East wasn't as f*cked up as it is today, and it's all because of their political play.

*sign* first of all, Jerusalem is a capital, and while it is a whole site, it is large, not as crowded (dangerous) as Mecca. It is also a shared holy land by Jews, Christians, and Muslims.

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:15 am**

Catalonia Imparapla wrote:
Nariterrr wrote:1) It is a city, which is also a holy site

2) It is, but discrimination in holy site for tourist safety reasons is different from discrimination in a whole nation

Jerusalem (the country, not the city) was also considered the "Holy Land" some time ago, was it not? People go on pilgrimage there as well, from Christians to Jews, too, so not only one religion.

And yet, Muslims aren't banned from entering Israel due to "tourist safety reasons", are they?

Still, I am not blaming Islam for the discrimination in Meccah, but Saudi Arabia, and more specifically the House of Saud. It is well known that they're financing extremist Islam movements, and not only in the west. Forty years ago, the Middle East wasn't as f*cked up as it is today, and it's all because of their political play.

No they are often just in general banned entirely from entering isreael at all rofl.

And no they are not, false again. Why would they do that either way? ISIS in fact caused more destruction of mosques and holy sites then even western wars ever did, and goes hard against the saudis line of islam too. Also if you want to look for financial backers, you might want to look at america, explicitly the CIA, who indeed as we know today thanks to documents made public, has founded in fact every extremist muslim group in the middle east, and countless more over the world.

Why? Well their policy is: "Since we cannot prevent extremists from appearing(nevermind that we could but for that we would also need to move away from imperialism and capitalism which is a no go for us here in the west), we will fund and infiltrate them to keep a tight controll and monitoring on these groups and influence them to our liking."

In praxis however sooner or later these extremist groups become independant and act outside of the policies set by CIA spies.

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:15 am**

Hansdeltania wrote:I fail to see how it would be possible to ban Muslims from entering the US. For example, my family is Vietnamese, and we often get mistaken as Filipino or Indonesian. Both of those countries have some number of Muslims and some level of Islamic terrorism, which means that you cannot tell if they are Muslim or not. Likewise, there are Arab Christians, and if you restrict them from coming in by race, the UN might have a very strong condemnation prepared, and the Arab countries might cut off the oil supply like they did in 1973.

This is also a good point. The only way to actually stop a group from coming into the country is to stop anyone from coming in. Granted there's a lot of people who'd love to see that but...

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:16 am**

Esternial wrote:
Nacesa Plana wrote:
Sure. Like tons of people start believing one day in the Norse mythology? Oh wait...

Because it's not a mainstream religion, and hardly a religion at all. When you've gone through a tragedy you're more likely to find a Christians self-help group than one following a pagan Norse religion, unless you've been living under a rock for several ages.

It WAS mainstream. And that's the whole point. Make sure any religion isn't mainstream anymore. If no one is teaching you stories from a Bible or Quran, it is less likely that you'll grab one.

The religions would fade away, just like many of the polytheistic and old monotheistic religions did.

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:24 am**

Skyviolia wrote:
The Intergalactic Universe Corporation wrote:Background info

Do they record what religion you are, I didn't know they did that.

In most Western countries ordinary police is recording your religious, sexual and political orientation and other interesting stuff.
By instance, they pretty know well with who you are hanging around. They know it when you have a big dog.

It's not detailed and they don't have as a goal to monitor all the people, however still a lot. You would be surprised what they record about you.

Officially they don't keep such records, but I know they do.

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:25 am**

Nacesa Plana wrote:
Skyviolia wrote:Do they record what religion you are, I didn't know they did that.

In most Western countries ordinary police is recording your religious, sexual and political orientation and other interesting stuff.
By instance, they pretty know well with who you are hanging around. They know it when you have a big dog.

It's not detailed and they don't have as a goal to monitor all the people, however still a lot. You would be surprised what they record about you.

Officially they don't keep such records, but I know they do.

This goes more into the realm of secret agencies then that of regular police but what you say is true.

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:27 am**

Nacesa Plana wrote:
Skyviolia wrote:Do they record what religion you are, I didn't know they did that.

In most Western countries ordinary police is recording your religious, sexual and political orientation and other interesting stuff.
By instance, they pretty know well with who you are hanging around. They know it when you have a big dog.

It's not detailed and they don't have as a goal to monitor all the people, however still a lot. You would be surprised what they record about you.

Officially they don't keep such records, but I know they do.

More agencies like the NSA. Police departments don't really do that unless you already have a record

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:29 am**

Internationalist Bastard wrote:
Hansdeltania wrote:I fail to see how it would be possible to ban Muslims from entering the US. For example, my family is Vietnamese, and we often get mistaken as Filipino or Indonesian. Both of those countries have some number of Muslims and some level of Islamic terrorism, which means that you cannot tell if they are Muslim or not. Likewise, there are Arab Christians, and if you restrict them from coming in by race, the UN might have a very strong condemnation prepared, and the Arab countries might cut off the oil supply like they did in 1973.

This is also a good point. The only way to actually stop a group from coming into the country is to stop anyone from coming in. Granted there's a lot of people who'd love to see that but...

But if your people are not allowed to visit America anymore, why allow Americans to visit your country?

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:31 am**

Hurdergaryp wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:This is also a good point. The only way to actually stop a group from coming into the country is to stop anyone from coming in. Granted there's a lot of people who'd love to see that but...

But if your people are not allowed to visit America anymore, why allow Americans to visit your country?

What?

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:33 am**

Azurius wrote:
Nacesa Plana wrote:
In most Western countries ordinary police is recording your religious, sexual and political orientation and other interesting stuff.
By instance, they pretty know well with who you are hanging around. They know it when you have a big dog.

It's not detailed and they don't have as a goal to monitor all the people, however still a lot. You would be surprised what they record about you.

Officially they don't keep such records, but I know they do.

This goes more into the realm of secret agencies then that of regular police but what you say is true.

Ordinary police is feeding the secret services with this data. A local cop knows more about us that we can imagine. It's just police work.

Also ordinary civilians feed the system. Official and unofficial snitches report to local policemen that Azurius by instance is lately visited by people from the left or right political spectrum. Or is visiting frequently the mosque suddenly.

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:39 am**

Internationalist Bastard wrote:
Nacesa Plana wrote:
In most Western countries ordinary police is recording your religious, sexual and political orientation and other interesting stuff.
By instance, they pretty know well with who you are hanging around. They know it when you have a big dog.

It's not detailed and they don't have as a goal to monitor all the people, however still a lot. You would be surprised what they record about you.

Officially they don't keep such records, but I know they do.

More agencies like the NSA. Police departments don't really do that unless you already have a record

A record certainly helps. But it's already enough when you have a friend with a record.

They don't record everything systematic about us. But they do feed 'the system' from time to time.

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:41 am**

Internationalist Bastard wrote:
Hurdergaryp wrote:But if your people are not allowed to visit America anymore, why allow Americans to visit your country?

What?

Well plain and simple the hypocrisy behind it all:

It is okay for us to spread around the world, emigrate to any country we want, but: How dare if others want to do the same and emigrate here!

And if we impose such a ban, why would arabs want to let in americans in their country at this point? And as someone pointed out they might as well just shut the oil supply to america like they did in the 70s.

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:42 am**

Nacesa Plana wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:More agencies like the NSA. Police departments don't really do that unless you already have a record

A record certainly helps. But it's already enough when you have a friend with a record.

They don't record everything systematic about us. But they do feed 'the system' from time to time.

I'm just saying man, they local law enforcement aint sitting around going "oh, we have 68 muslims in the city" They keep track of crime and basic demographics, all things you can access

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:43 am**

Azurius wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:What?

Well plain and simple the hypocrisy behind it all:

It is okay for us to spread around the world, emigrate to any country we want, but: How dare if others want to do the same and emigrate here!

And if we impose such a ban, why would arabs want to let in americans in their country at this point? And as someone pointed out they might as well just shut the oil supply to america like they did in the 70s.

Oh I agree. It's better to just let people live where they want

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:44 am**

Azurius wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:Outright not true. The total number of people killed in warfare throughout the entirety of history isn't anywhere close to one billion. In fact, IIRC, the Second World War alone (a war of secular ideologies) killed more than every religious war in history. Combined.

No my friend that is false, sorry. Since we do not have all records all we have are estimated numbers, however, experts estimate the following numbers:

About 1 billion people died because of christianity. Another 700 million via islam. These 2 religions alone killed more then anything except for capitalism, add other religions to it as well and you easily get numbers that even go higher then the deaths created by capitalism.

Horseshit.

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:49 am**

Azurius wrote:Well that would at least be fair to everyone. However there is a small problem with that: Unlike the 20s to 60s we today live in a globalized world, and doing that will seriously harm americas tourism and with that harm a lot of other parts of the economy that thrive also partially thanks to tourism.

I also think this sends the wrong message to the american people, as it will only further fortify paranioa, anxiety and ultimately xenophobic views.

Globalisation does not mean the individual constituents lose all autonomy.

Maintaining a personal security standard, short of a complete lack of emmigration/immigration mechanism is not paranoia or xenophobia. Self-presevation doesnt require complete alienation, especially if you are being honestly discreet about it.

Tourists are non-immigrant admittants, so I dont get your point there.

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:50 am**

I'm in favor. The issue is not security, but culture.

A post I saw from reddit discussing the problem:

Due to my occuapation I think I have a lot more contact to refugees as the normal commentor here. So let me chime in to your statements.
From the 600+ refugees I've talked with were not a single one unthankful for my help. I have been at no point been afraid that something would happen to me.
As you might have expected there's a "but". The male group of those 600+ were almost entirely sexist in one way or another. By either not talking to my boss because she's a woman, or by complaining directly or indirectly about the stuff female staff or non-refugee students were wearing. There have been minor incidents that have been "dealt with" by the higher ups in order to not bring in the police. Our personal has been politely asked to wear more moderate clothing or hide their piercings. There have been several complaints by female staff and students about verbal abuse. 2 hours ago a coworker had a constant stream of students asking her stupid questions. When they left her office they were making quite some disrespectful gestures. She was wearing a summer dress with some cleavage. What I find interesting is that it's the same persons that shout some insults on some days and make some lecherous comments the next.
There is also a insane agression and potential for violence between the different regugees themself. Just last week there have been serious fight between 2 students because one of them decided to pronounce his name in in class in the way we were pronouncing it. Another student attacked him after class because this name is pronounced different in arab. Seriously, I couldn't quite follow the reasoning they gave to the police, but there was a lot of talk about being proud heritage, etc..
There are a lot of offers from volunteers to help integration (i.e. free courses to learn to play Guitar in a mixed group, and stuff like that) that go unused because there does't seem to be much interest in them. From my personal experience there is absolutely no interest from refugees to reach out to anything that involves integrating with non-refugees. There are groups and sub groups that completely isolate themselves.
So, from my personal experience with this group of refugees, I'm not afraid of someone blowing them self up, but from their reluctance to integrate into our society and accept personal freedom of females. Those people come from places where they have a completely incompatible culture ingrained into them from their first breath and I don't see them change this culture anytime soon. What will change is our culture to commemorate theirs. There are already some orders in place to change ourself in order to commemorate the refugees. Small things like "wear something less revealing" or "put out your piercings at work". At no point has there been someone saying to the refugees "Well, this is how it is here and you have to deal with it. Maybe try wearing something like this yourself you might actually like it". There is also some change in the populace visible. For example people going to the public pool are now changing into their swim suits at the pool and not at home (which used to be commonplace) so they don't have to walk from the parking space to the pool in their swim suits out of fear to be assaulted (both verbally or physically). Going from personal sphere of friends, a lot of them avoid the public pools altogether and rather flock to the lakes here.

This sums up my views too.

You just have to accept that the rights and comfort of muslims are more important than yours to your government and elite, and if you don't, you're a racist.

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:50 am**

Jochizyd Republic wrote:Just ban fundamentalists. Keep everyone else if you want.

Pretty simple. But Anti Muslims and SJWs for some reason never seem to understand the concept. Either saying it's "cuckhold" or "Islamophobic".

Amen to that.

The first Galactic Republic wrote:
The Intergalactic Universe Corporation wrote:I think a good option would be to ban travel to and from nations that terror attacks commonly originate from. Like: Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan etc...

That feel when people born in first world countries radicalize anyway.

Ban the Internet. It's what's really radicalizing our children!
Burn the mosques! Drive the Muslamics and their ray-guns into the sea! They're all violent Always Chaotic Evil RL orcs anyway!
(For the record, this is sarcasm)

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:51 am**

Nacesa Plana wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:More agencies like the NSA. Police departments don't really do that unless you already have a record

A record certainly helps. But it's already enough when you have a friend with a record.

They don't record everything systematic about us. But they do feed 'the system' from time to time.

False, the NSA just records anyone who even uses tor browser or mentions anything political they don´t like. Do that and you can be certain you are in the NSA´s gigantic database. Britain is the same and in fact even more extensive then the NSA, britains monitoring system is called "Performa", and it records literally EVERYTHING you do online regardless of any suspicions, just everything is recorded.

To the rest: No, the police rarely get data from secret agencies, in fact that was also a critique point of the entire NSU scandal in germany, that police simply lacked the information and data that was readily available by our secret agency(BKA), and the several BKA branches inside germany also heavily lacked cooperation and exchange of data, which made this entire incident possible.

Yes no doubt as soon as you have a criminal record the police will record what they can, often in western countries they can also monitor your internet traffic and phone calls. However most data like that that is collected, is collected by secret agencies rather then the police.

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:52 am**

United Marxist Nations wrote:
Azurius wrote:
No my friend that is false, sorry. Since we do not have all records all we have are estimated numbers, however, experts estimate the following numbers:

About 1 billion people died because of christianity. Another 700 million via islam. These 2 religions alone killed more then anything except for capitalism, add other religions to it as well and you easily get numbers that even go higher then the deaths created by capitalism.

Horseshit.

Fact, you are free to provide evidence that this is "horseshit".

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:52 am**

Azurius wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:Horseshit.

Fact, you are free to provide evidence that this is "horseshit".

I'd like to see evidence on 1 billion killed because of Christianity.

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:53 am**

Ostroeuropa wrote:I'm in favor. The issue is not security, but culture.

But how would such a ban be enforced?

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:53 am**

Azurius wrote:
United Marxist Nations wrote:Horseshit.

Fact, you are free to provide evidence that this is "horseshit".

You're free to provide evidence that it's fact. Where are these distributions of deaths?

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:54 am**

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:I'm in favor. The issue is not security, but culture.

But how would such a ban be enforced?

Presumably by not allowing people from the Muslim world to come here.

Posted: **Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:54 am**

The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:I'm in favor. The issue is not security, but culture.

But how would such a ban be enforced?

If a foreign country is majority Muslim, ban 'em all.

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