Far-Right and Holocaust Denial

[Jute]

Far-right Nazis and such are really leftist. Fascism is simply another form of socialism. The reason communist and Nazis hate each other is because like forces repel. Also I do believe that explains why I see a lot more anti-Semitic leftist than rightwingers. Not saying all leftist are anti-Semitic. Of course the holocaust happened like the mass genocides committed by every other socialist, and communist dictatorships.

Dude what

What is even "leftist" in your opinion?
(Hint: It's not authoritarianism or big government, both can be find on both sides of the political spectrum)

Fascism: everything for the state, cooperation between workers, employers and the political elite. Capitalistic economic system, however with a lot of companies owned by the state working for the state.
Communism: Eventual goal of the abolishment of the state and capitalism, supposed to be achieved by a violent fight of the workers against employers and the political elite, leading to a revolution and disempowerment of both, erection of a "dictatorship of the proletariat (working class)" which is then supposed to eventually give way to a state-less, class-less society with a currency-free, post-scarcity economy.
Socialism: No distinction between employer and worker, everyone is self-employed, working alone or together. Compatible with liberty, democracy and even libertarianism. (Indeed, libertarianism was originally a leftist movement). Anti-capitalistic, views capitalism as inherently oppressive and incompatible with freedom.

As you can see, they have more differences than Democrats and Republicans do.

[MERIZoC]

Far-right Nazis and such are really leftist. Fascism is simply another form of socialism. The reason communist and Nazis hate each other is because like forces repel. Also I do believe that explains why I see a lot more anti-Semitic leftist than rightwingers. Not saying all leftist are anti-Semitic. Of course the holocaust happened like the mass genocides committed by every other socialist, and communist dictatorships.

What a childish line of reasoning. The laws of magnetism don't apply to politics, and any argument attempting to fit them in that way is quite frankly idiotic.

[Jute]

Please cite sources about "13 Million people".

https://www.quora.com/Which-religion-is ... re-history

estaments go higher if you consider the holocaust and the genocide in the Americas.

Hitler was no Christian, he only sometimes included allusions to it in public speeches for more popularity.

Hitler's remarks to confidants, as described in the Goebbels Diaries, the memoirs of Albert Speer,[11] and transcripts of Hitler's private conversations recorded by Martin Bormann in Hitler's Table Talk, have been interpreted as evidence of his anti-Christian beliefs. Goebbels wrote in 1941 that Hitler "hates Christianity".[12] Hitler biographer Alan Bullock wrote that Hitler was a rationalist and a materialist who did not believe in God, but who frequently employed the language of "divine providence" in defence of his own myth. Bullock added that one of Hitler's central objections to Christianity, was that its teaching was "a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle and the survival of the fittest".

Once in office, the regime sought to reduce the influence of Christianity on society.[14] Hitler himself was reluctant to make public attacks on the Church for political reasons,[15] but generally permitted or encouraged anti-church radicals such as Himmler, Goebbels and Bormann to perpetrate the Nazi persecutions of the churches.[16] Hitler angered Christians by appointing Alfred Rosenberg, who espoused neo-pagan views, as official Nazi ideologist (although, according to Speer, Hitler had contempt for the neo-pagan views of Rosenberg and Heinrich Himmler[17][18]).

Link

Seriously, this kind of uninformed bashing of Christianity isn't cool and really getting old now.

[Bakery Hill]

So, you're using a deliberately inflammatory title to get people's attention, just so you can feed us your inane opinion about a historical event whose sheer scale makes it virtually impossible to fake.

Classy.

Even then, let's humor this for a minute, who actually benefits from the Holocaust being fake?

Politicians? Neo-Nazis? Nazi-Nazis? Communists? Americans? Jews? Gays?

When looking at any conspiracy, the easiest way to debunk it is to ask who benefits. Nobody benefits from the monumental effort it would take to fake the deaths of millions of people. Can you imagine how much time, money, and personnel that would take? If the Holocaust was faked, given it's scale, the trail of money and evidence would be obvious at this point.

Yes, it's hard to believe that normal, rational people can be so easily manipulated into "just following orders". Unfortunately, our species has, is, and will always be capable of that kind of horrific, terribly efficiency.

The Holocaust happened. There's mountains of photographic and video evidence, in addition to god-knows how many eyewitness testimonies.

There's no battle of opinions here. You're just flat out wrong.

Who it benefitted?
The Allies,
Fascist and National Socialist ideologies being associated with a massive genocide is a good way to keep them down.
The Jews,
Got control over Germany's currency again, a free victim card, and Israel.

I'm sure you can provide all those mountains of video and photographic evidence, right? You can't just be assuming that it's out there, can you?

And this is why it's clear, that even if this actually is your genuine opinion, you're not looking to get convinced otherwise.

This thread's a waste of time.

[Raxacoricofallibatorius]

Well it's prevalent in the far right because it was the far right that committed the Holocaust. Most far right organisations tend to be neo-Nazis anyway.

Scarily it is becoming hugely prevalent in the moderate left wing (i.e socialists such as Labour as opposed to the centre-left such as the lib dems). One example I see over and over is many left wing people in mainstream media disputing the numbers of Jewish people murdered by the Nazis. Then again this can just be seen as a symptom of the growing trend in anti-semitism in the left as seen with politicians such as Ken Livingstone, George Galloway, Naz Shah, Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell.

[Hakons]

The Holocaust happened. The vast majority of nations, people, and institutions agree to this. Also, take a peak at your own poll and see the obvious consensus. Now sit back and ponder why practically everyone else thinks differently than you. Maybe because you're wrong.

For the Holocaust to be fake, all these criteria must be met:

a. Every single holocaust victim must have given a false testimony
b. Every single Nazi official that confessed to the holocaust (like Goring) must have given a false testimony
c. Every single document, picture, and video of evidence for the holocaust (numbering in the millions) must have been forged and faked.
d. Every single soldier liberating a death camp must have given a false testimony.
e. The millions of institutions that place confidence in the existence Holocaust must be wrong.
d. The billions of people that place confidence in the existence of the Holocaust must be wrong.
e. The (currently) 96% of NSG users that place confidence in the existence of the Holocaust must be wrong.

Given the sheer number of variables, it's virtually impossible for the Holocaust to be fake. If you want math, there it is for you. To deny the Holocaust is to tread near statistical impossibility.

[Jute]

Far-right Nazis and such are really leftist. Fascism is simply another form of socialism. The reason communist and Nazis hate each other is because like forces repel. Also I do believe that explains why I see a lot more anti-Semitic leftist than rightwingers. Not saying all leftist are anti-Semitic. Of course the holocaust happened like the mass genocides committed by every other socialist, and communist dictatorships.

Fascism is not Leftwing it is the Third Position, Nazism on the other hand is Far Left.

It's about as far left as North Korea is democratic, i.e. the opposite of it. Calling yourself "socialist" doesn't make you so. They even literally purged and destroyed the socialist part of the NSDAP, leaving only the fascist far-right part.

[New Grestin]

Who it benefitted?
The Allies,
Fascist and National Socialist ideologies being associated with a massive genocide is a good way to keep them down.
The Jews,
Got control over Germany's currency again, a free victim card, and Israel.

I'm sure you can provide all those mountains of video and photographic evidence, right? You can't just be assuming that it's out there, can you?

I don't think it's worth putting my head on the chopping block to risk the Moderator warning, so I'm not going to put mature content on here. I'm hamstrung by the limitations of the site, which make it difficult for me to just show you piles of emaciated human corpses.

You're simply painting the bullseye after the arrow. Fascist ideologies were already in the shitter by the time Mussolini fell, and the collapse of Nazi Germany was the final nail in that coffin. For a while, at least.

The Allies themselves didn't benefit from the Holocaust. The Allies benefitted from the fall of Nazi Germany, which posed an existential (if fleeting) threat to Europe and the East.

You're also forgetting the fact that the Holocaust as we know it was not limited to Europe. The mass killing of Slavs was also a significant aspect of that. Which expands the area from the Camps in Europe out into Russia. It should also be noted that the Japanese took part, quite flagrantly I might add, in war crimes against their conquered nations. The Rape of Nanking certainly comes to mind.

How, then, do you suggest that the Allies might have produced the manpower and material to fake an event on such a scale, and somehow manage to keep this entire conspiracy under wraps? The governments of the world have a hard enough time trying to keep emails secure. How, then, are thousands, if not millions of people in on this wildly unethical conspiracy and not a single one has come forward with any credible evidence that the Holocaust was faked?

[Spurdo Sparde Land]

I provided no evidence because I needed none. I was making negative claims. The burden of proof lies on the one making the positive claim.

Why didn't all of the Nazis admit to the Holocaust? Because there were some they couldn't break. How do you think they got them to say all those things? Asking politely? No. They tortured them.

That speech by Himmler, the only mention of an alleged attempt to eliminate all the jews is barely what I would consider proof. There are many who are skeptical as to its legitimacy. The post at the top of this forum sums it up nicely.
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=5474

The Allies weren't stupid. If they wanted to fake a genocide, they could have no dissent from the ones who they claim to have committed it. Those who testified had been broken, those who refused were most likely killed very brutally.

A forum post is not evidence. You need to demonstrate that those confessions were under duress, and even then, you have a ways to go.

I'm not saying it's evidence. I'm saying they raise some very good points.
1. Why would Mr. Himmler decide to have his speech in a super-secret SS meeting recorded?

2. Why is it that this speech was "discovered" about half a century after it was (allegedly) made...?
I have no evidence that the confessions were under duress, but would Hitler's right hand men really give up the information so easily, even if it did happen? Clearly, whether you believe the Holocaust happened or not, they were most likely tortured.

[Bakery Hill]

Well it's prevalent in the far right because it was the far right that committed the Holocaust. Most far right organisations tend to be neo-Nazis anyway.

Scarily it is becoming hugely prevalent in the moderate left wing (i.e socialists such as Labour as opposed to the centre-left such as the lib dems). One example I see over and over is many left wing people in mainstream media disputing the numbers of Jewish people murdered by the Nazis. Then again this can just be seen as a symptom of the growing trend in anti-semitism in the left as seen with politicians such as Ken Livingstone, George Galloway, Naz Shah, Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell.

What? I wish Labour was socialist haha.

Corbyn and McDonnell haven't done that, they've done the opposite if anything. Livingstone and Shah were condemned outright by their party, Galloway's a laughing stock.

[Xadufell]

Even as someone who is pretty far-right I think the Holocaust happened.

There is simply too much evidence that suggest that it does! (Nazis kept A LOT of documentation)

While it did happen, I think people need to also focus on the other dictators who committed genocidal acts. I mean, Stalin? Mao? Emperor Tojo? People don't tend to focus on others as well for what horrible things they did.

[Vedilia]

So, you're using a deliberately inflammatory title to get people's attention, just so you can feed us your inane opinion about a historical event whose sheer scale makes it virtually impossible to fake.

Classy.

Even then, let's humor this for a minute, who actually benefits from the Holocaust being fake?

Politicians? Neo-Nazis? Nazi-Nazis? Communists? Americans? Jews? Gays?

When looking at any conspiracy, the easiest way to debunk it is to ask who benefits. Nobody benefits from the monumental effort it would take to fake the deaths of millions of people. Can you imagine how much time, money, and personnel that would take? If the Holocaust was faked, given it's scale, the trail of money and evidence would be obvious at this point.

Yes, it's hard to believe that normal, rational people can be so easily manipulated into "just following orders". Unfortunately, our species has, is, and will always be capable of that kind of horrific, terribly efficiency.

The Holocaust happened. There's mountains of photographic and video evidence, in addition to god-knows how many eyewitness testimonies.

There's no battle of opinions here. You're just flat out wrong.

Who it benefitted?
The Allies,
Fascist and National Socialist ideologies being associated with a massive genocide is a good way to keep them down.
The Jews,
Got control over Germany's currency again, a free victim card, and Israel.

I'm sure you can provide all those mountains of video and photographic evidence, right? You can't just be assuming that it's out there, can you?

Pretty hard to control deutschmarks when you've all fled the country where they're legal tender.
Pretty hard to do all this shit without someone noticing, unless you're saying "Dey burned the evidence and 9000 people have never told the truth that the Holocaust was a grand Jewish ebil plot to take over the world".
You that Czecherboard guy back to putter around?

[New Grestin]

And this is why it's clear, that even if this actually is your genuine opinion, you're not looking to get convinced otherwise.

This thread's a waste of time.

The cost of this thread to my time: 40 Minutes.

Seeing someone bend over backwards to justify their political ideology, when they clearly know fuck-all about history?

Priceless.

[Spurdo Sparde Land]

Who it benefitted?
The Allies,
Fascist and National Socialist ideologies being associated with a massive genocide is a good way to keep them down.
The Jews,
Got control over Germany's currency again, a free victim card, and Israel.

I'm sure you can provide all those mountains of video and photographic evidence, right? You can't just be assuming that it's out there, can you?

I don't think it's worth putting my head on the chopping block to risk the Moderator warning, so I'm not going to put mature content on here. I'm hamstrung by the limitations of the site, which make it difficult for me to just show you piles of emaciated human corpses.

You're simply painting the bullseye after the arrow. Fascist ideologies were already in the shitter by the time Mussolini fell, and the collapse of Nazi Germany was the final nail in that coffin. For a while, at least.

The Allies themselves didn't benefit from the Holocaust. The Allies benefitted from the fall of Nazi Germany, which posed an existential (if fleeting) threat to Europe and the East.

You're also forgetting the fact that the Holocaust as we know it was not limited to Europe. The mass killing of Slavs was also a significant aspect of that. Which expands the area from the Camps in Europe out into Russia. It should also be noted that the Japanese took part, quite flagrantly I might add, in war crimes against their conquered nations. The Rape of Nanking certainly comes to mind.

How, then, do you suggest that the Allies might have produced the manpower and material to fake an event on such a scale, and somehow manage to keep this entire conspiracy under wraps? The governments of the world have a hard enough time trying to keep emails secure. How, then, are thousands, if not millions of people in on this wildly unethical conspiracy and not a single one has come forward with any credible evidence that the Holocaust was faked?

It wasn't just the Allies, I'm sure the Soviets had a hand in it as well. They were already editing photos and videos by the time Nazi Germany fell.
Both sides hated Nazi Germany. Besides, despite the claims of the mountains of evidence, about 15 pieces of evidence were provided in this thread. I'm sure there's plenty more, but with an army the size of the Allies and the Soviets combined, I'm not sure it would have taken as much effort as you think it may have.

[Bakery Hill]

And this is why it's clear, that even if this actually is your genuine opinion, you're not looking to get convinced otherwise.

This thread's a waste of time.

The cost of this thread to my time: 40 Minutes.

Seeing someone bend over backwards to justify their political ideology, when they clearly know fuck-all about history?

Priceless.

You know, I knew a kid at high school who would deliberately embarrass himself to get attention...

[Ebliania]

Even as someone who is pretty far-right I think the Holocaust happened.

There is simply too much evidence that suggest that it does! (Nazis kept A LOT of documentation)

While it did happen, I think people need to also focus on the other dictators who committed genocidal acts. I mean, Stalin? Mao? Emperor Tojo? People don't tend to focus on others as well for what horrible things they did.

Yeah, you would think that with the diversity in political views someone's ought to deny any of these.

[Spurdo Sparde Land]

The cost of this thread to my time: 40 Minutes.

Seeing someone bend over backwards to justify their political ideology, when they clearly know fuck-all about history?

Priceless.

You know, I knew a kid at high school who would deliberately embarrass himself to get attention...

Yeah, instead of arguing, just act smug. That'll help prove your point.

[New Grestin]

It wasn't just the Allies, I'm sure the Soviets had a hand in it as well. They were already editing photos and videos by the time Nazi Germany fell.
Both sides hated Nazi Germany. Besides, despite the claims of the mountains of evidence, about 15 pieces of evidence were provided in this thread. I'm sure there's plenty more, but with an army the size of the Allies and the Soviets combined, I'm not sure it would have taken as much effort as you think it may have.

The Allies also included the Soviet Union, you twit. Stalin was editing photos and running a totalitarian regime long before the Holocaust, and his purges were nearly as bad. Implying that Stalin, someone who wasn't exactly on great terms with the rest of the Allies, would help them manufacture the genocide of millions, is utterly absurd. These were two sides working out of convenience, against a common enemy, who immediately turned on each other afterwards. If the Soviets had a hand in it, then why didn't they immediately use that to blackmail the rest of the Allies? The Cold War was full of dirty tricks, and having the equivalent of a publicity nuke was something the Soviets would have loved to have.

How did people get footage of the Holocaust? Where's the money trail to the sets they used? What about the people that died? Were they all just made up? How do you make up millions and have nobody notice? How do you have elements of the German military working against an event that, by your thoughts, doesn't exist? Why would there be such a massive hunt for Nazi War Criminals if the crimes they committed didn't happen? How are there survivors of the Holocaust today? Are they all paid actors? If then, who's paying them? Why would they pay them? How?

There are so many fucking holes in your story that it's not even amusing anymore.

[Godular]

You know, I knew a kid at high school who would deliberately embarrass himself to get attention...

Yeah, instead of arguing, just act smug. That'll help prove your point.

You are not proving yours.

[Nioya]

One time I asked a friend "what is the term holocaust deniers like for themselves?"

and he said "revisionist, holocaust or WWII revisionist."

Then I always pictured that hippie cat from the live action version of cat in the hat saying "See, I don't like the term 'holocaust denier.' That can very offensive and dehumanizing, OK? I prefer the term 'WWII revisionist american.'"

[Reploid Productions]

you twit

Stop that.

You can tear his argument to ribbons without the namecalling.

[Kalosia]

It's typically the Anti-Semites. They emphasize on how Jews have controlled the world since the beginning of time or whenever, to the point where they think the Holocaust was initiated by them with the main goal of having a reason to (re)occupy Israel, and therefore not a real tragedy.

Huh. It's like they think Jews are supernatural beings who can't experience suffering. It's almost like they're jealous. Like have you hated someone so much you go lengths to argue why they're better than you? I'll never understand.

[Southerly Gentleman]

The Nazis purposefully used euphemistic language in their documentation and correspondence in order to hide their true intentions.

As for the reason behind Holocaust denial, many neo-Nazis don't actually believe it didn't happen -- they just claim so to try to restore National Socialism as a viable political ideology by making it somehow more palatable to the mass public.

[Spurdo Sparde Land]

It wasn't just the Allies, I'm sure the Soviets had a hand in it as well. They were already editing photos and videos by the time Nazi Germany fell.
Both sides hated Nazi Germany. Besides, despite the claims of the mountains of evidence, about 15 pieces of evidence were provided in this thread. I'm sure there's plenty more, but with an army the size of the Allies and the Soviets combined, I'm not sure it would have taken as much effort as you think it may have.

The Allies also included the Soviet Union, you twit. Stalin was editing photos and running a totalitarian regime long before the Holocaust, and his purges were nearly as bad. Implying that Stalin, someone who wasn't exactly on great terms with the rest of the Allies, would help them manufacture the genocide of millions, is utterly absurd. These were two sides working out of convenience, against a common enemy, who immediately turned on each other afterwards. If the Soviets had a hand in it, then why didn't they immediately use that to blackmail the rest of the Allies? The Cold War was full of dirty tricks, and having the equivalent of a publicity nuke was something the Soviets would have loved to have.

How did people get footage of the Holocaust? Where's the money trail to the sets they used? What about the people that died? Were they all just made up? How do you make up millions and have nobody notice? How do you have elements of the German military working against an event that, by your thoughts, doesn't exist? Why would there be such a massive hunt for Nazi War Criminals if the crimes they committed didn't happen? How are there survivors of the Holocaust today? Are they all paid actors? If then, who's paying them? Why would they pay them? How?

There are so many fucking holes in your story that it's not even amusing anymore.

There's no need to curse at me.

I don't know what you're talking about when you refer to this footage. I'd appreciate if you provided a source.
As I've said before in this thread, I'm not denying that people died. I'm denying that there was a systematic effort to eliminate the jews.
The hunt for Nazi war criminals can be explained by people believing them to be the ultimate evil. In the Nazi hunter's mind, they are devils, which is why they hunt and prosecute them even when they might have been just a guard.
Again, there are people who died in the Holocaust, and there are people who survived. I am denying that there was a systematic effort to eliminate the jews. I'm not sure if you know this, but denying the holocaust does not give you a good reputation. It is illegal in many countries.

[Nioya]

Huh. It's like they think Jews are supernatural beings who can't experience suffering.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a952gCabSCQ