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[Debate]Are the NS forums Biased?

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Are the forums Biased

Yes
82
50%
Kinda
10
6%
Depends where you look
35
21%
No
38
23%
 
Total votes : 165

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Reploid Productions
Director of Moderation
 
Posts: 30511
Founded: Antiquity
Democratic Socialists

Postby Reploid Productions » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:32 pm

For those who keep saying "But mods don't smack X!":
Contrary to popular belief, we are not omnipresent nor omniscient. We cannot see every single new nation, every forum post, every flag, every RMB post. We have places for reporting things so that we can address it.

During the 2012 US presidential election season it was noted that "reporting bias" was a real problem. Simply put, being that the userbase tends to lean more to the left, conservative trolls were being reported and thus smacked at a higher rate than their liberal counterparts. In some cases, it was actually intentional mods-as-weapons with players of one political bent intentionally reporting only their political opponents for misbehavior and willfully not reporting their allies. In most cases though, it was simply users not seeing "their" side as engaging in rulebreaking while the "other" side doing the same behavior was. In part to counteract this, the "lock 'n trawl" approach was more aggressively deployed, mainly in NSG, to combat this reporting bias, even out enforcement, and also discourage the malicious politically-motivated reporting. It's become somewhat common practice these days to check at least a couple of pages to either side of a reported post even when not doing a full lock and trawl, precisely to catch out the unreported bad behavior. As this presidential election cycle proceeds, you'll probably see more trawls, either of a few pages to either side of a report, or more aggressive full-thread (or in super massive threads, 20-30 page) trawls for this very reason. It takes longer (much, MUCH longer) than just looking at a reported post and thwacking, but it also helps account for the reporting bias and better catch out bad behavior on both sides of a debate; my recent trawl of the Brexit thread is a great example, since aside from the posts reported in Moderation, several other users got smacked on both the pro-Leave and the pro-Remain sides.

In theory, one can argue any ideology no matter how repugnant or repulsive. In practice, speaking from past experience of more than a decade and three US presidential elections as a mod, the more extreme the ideology, the harder it is to actually argue without breaking the rules. There are many reasons from this, ranging from the ideology itself (good luck finding a rule-abiding way to argue that all of X group should be killed off en masse!), to the variety of people the ideology tends to attract. The harder an argument is to support, the more likely someone is to resort to attacking their opponent instead; when confronted and really pressed to support their positions, they often find a lack of material to back up their claims, and instead resort to sweeping attacks on the opposition.

As politics, especially US politics have gotten increasingly polarized, some of that also reflects in the userbase. For instance this season, we have actual candidates whose behavior on the campaign trail would get them warned/banned/DEATed/DOSed in short order were they to post here; in turn, that brings out increasingly poor behavior from regular folks who see that and think "Well, it's okay for a candidate to say things like X on national television and say Y things about their critics, surely it's okay for me too!" ... and it's not. We have literally had people file appeals based on nothing more than the fact that "it's okay to say that on the evening news, why can't I say that on NS?" It's incredibly frustrating, because for discussion to thrive, it can't just be an echo chamber; opposition is a necessary component to debate.

And as an aside regarding the novel Jennifer Government, I do believe the message to take away from it wasn't "Capitalism is the devil," it was more "Completely unchecked capitalism is the devil." ;) Much like the daily issues in NS where everything is cranked up to 11, the novel's setting pretty much hinges on the idea of capitalism cranked to an absurd extreme. :P
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NERVUN
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Founded: Mar 24, 2005
Ex-Nation

Postby NERVUN » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:58 pm

Impireacht wrote:Wait wait.... RPing Nazis is against the rules? I swear I got recruitment ads from at least 10 Nazi regions with swastika flags on day 1, and have run into tons of other regions/nations RPing as Nazi Countries/Continuations of Nazi Germany more recently :?

Sorry, let me clarify... It's NOT against the rules to RP as Nazis. It's against the rules to promote maliciousness. I.e. glorifying the Holocaust.

It's why, usually, Nazi themed nation + Swastika flag = flag go bai-bai.

If you DO see a regional flag with a Swastika in it, please report it.
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Mad hatters in jeans
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Founded: Nov 14, 2007
Ex-Nation

Postby Mad hatters in jeans » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:28 am

Grande Republic of Arcadia wrote:SO this is simple are the NS forums Biased towards one specific group, whether it be mods or players.
So it is the question the debate starts:

Here is what I have to say,

Yes, I have been reported fr things that shouldnt be reportable, then you have players who act like your inferior just because your not a liberal or conservative. Then I have seen some of the mods who are way left who will 'warn' or '2 day ban' players for expressing their right wing views. Then you have some left and right I have come across who avoid to see reason, when is comes to the BS bathroom laws, Obama, clinton, trump, and Fascism

Okay i'll bite.
What do bathroom laws have to do with Obama, Clinton Trump and fascism?

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Qothia
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Founded: Jan 25, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Qothia » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:52 am

Every website where discussion is held the bias can be seen. Doesn't matter if it is Left vs. Right or cat-preference, it's just how it works.
Mad hatters in jeans wrote:
Grande Republic of Arcadia wrote:SO this is simple are the NS forums Biased towards one specific group, whether it be mods or players.
So it is the question the debate starts:

Here is what I have to say,

Yes, I have been reported fr things that shouldnt be reportable, then you have players who act like your inferior just because your not a liberal or conservative. Then I have seen some of the mods who are way left who will 'warn' or '2 day ban' players for expressing their right wing views. Then you have some left and right I have come across who avoid to see reason, when is comes to the BS bathroom laws, Obama, clinton, trump, and Fascism

Okay i'll bite.
What do bathroom laws have to do with Obama, Clinton Trump and fascism?

In 2013, President Obama passed a law about Bathroom safety that Trump responded to recently on Twitter, citing "Obama makes laws like facists and Clinton likes these laws, we need to..." /s

Being completly honest, probably those Bathroom laws in some states in the US that was the topic some weeks ago...

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Alaizia
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Founded: Feb 09, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Alaizia » Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:04 am

Grande Republic of Arcadia wrote:SO this is simple are the NS forums Biased towards one specific group, whether it be mods or players.
So it is the question the debate starts:

Here is what I have to say,

Yes, I have been reported fr things that shouldnt be reportable, then you have players who act like your inferior just because your not a liberal or conservative. Then I have seen some of the mods who are way left who will 'warn' or '2 day ban' players for expressing their right wing views. Then you have some left and right I have come across who avoid to see reason, when is comes to the BS bathroom laws, Obama, clinton, trump, and Fascism


I think there is some bias in NS, as there is in every human group, but nothing extreme. I too have noticed some users that act in a "know-it-all" pseudo-intellectual attitude, but frankly they seem to be the minority of the users here. The forums need to crack a laugh or be a little silly at times though. I feel there is too much seriousness most of the time.
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Northern American Unions
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Founded: Jan 11, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Northern American Unions » Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:07 am

Mad hatters in jeans wrote:
Grande Republic of Arcadia wrote:SO this is simple are the NS forums Biased towards one specific group, whether it be mods or players.
So it is the question the debate starts:

Here is what I have to say,

Yes, I have been reported fr things that shouldnt be reportable, then you have players who act like your inferior just because your not a liberal or conservative. Then I have seen some of the mods who are way left who will 'warn' or '2 day ban' players for expressing their right wing views. Then you have some left and right I have come across who avoid to see reason, when is comes to the BS bathroom laws, Obama, clinton, trump, and Fascism

Okay i'll bite.
What do bathroom laws have to do with Obama, Clinton Trump and fascism?

He is talking about extermly biased topics, which the Left usually controls

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Vassenor
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Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:15 am

I get the feeling that were the forums right-biased a lot of you wouldn't be complaining.
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Hirota
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Founded: Jan 22, 2004
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Hirota » Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:48 am

Vassenor wrote:I get the feeling that were the forums right-biased a lot of you wouldn't be complaining.
Actually, I would. But I complain about bias in general rather than bias by a specific ideology because I believe bias blinds us as human beings to the truth. You could say I'm biased against bias. ;)

Thats not to say I'm much better, and I'm sure I am biased more often than I am aware but I'd like to believe being aware that I could be biased is better than those blissfully ignorant of their cognitive bias.


Answering the original question, the NS forums have a slight leaning towards the left (which is probably the same as the internet in general - after all internet users are more likely to be younger, tech-savvy and progressive), but I believe there is a very wide and diverse range of political ideologies which you might not see represented on the internet in general. I've not got any real evidence for that, and I probably only believe that because politics doesn't tend to come up in the other circles I frequent.
Last edited by Hirota on Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dumb Ideologies
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Mother Knows Best State

Postby Dumb Ideologies » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:12 am

The moderation team is biased against people overtly being massive douchecanoes. Honestly, that's the kind of bias I can live with. If you can't even be bothered to put a little bit of subtlety or nuance in to stay within the rules then you can go play in a sandpit full of crabs instead.
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Khadgar
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Ex-Nation

Postby Khadgar » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:20 am

Northern American Unions wrote:
Mad hatters in jeans wrote:Okay i'll bite.
What do bathroom laws have to do with Obama, Clinton Trump and fascism?

He is talking about extermly biased topics, which the Left usually controls


What makes something an "extermly biased topic"? I mean other than your side of the debate being laughably wrong?

I remember a time a few years back when it felt like you couldn't get banned for shit if you posted from a conservative bent. Something about improving the ideological diversity of the forum.

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Ifreann
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Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:44 am

Cannot think of a name wrote:You can not just call out 'bias' to get you out of your own shitty arguments.

You're just saying that cos you're biased!


Singaporean Transhumans wrote:Plot twist subforums other than NSG actually exist

What?


Dumb Ideologies wrote:The moderation team is biased against people overtly being massive douchecanoes. Honestly, that's the kind of bias I can live with. If you can't even be bothered to put a little bit of subtlety or nuance in to stay within the rules then you can go play in a sandpit full of crabs instead.

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Samnoreg
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Ex-Nation

Postby Samnoreg » Thu Jun 30, 2016 6:51 am

Everything's "biased" in some way. Who really cares? Sometimes NSG is nothing but reactionary alt-rightists, sometimes it's glorious F U L L C O M M U N I S T S. And when it's summer, they all gather in a beautiful shitfest and sling ad hominem left and right. Just go with it, maaaaaaaaaan
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Noraika
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Ex-Nation

Postby Noraika » Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:40 am

Samnoreg wrote:Everything's "biased" in some way. Who really cares? Sometimes NSG is nothing but reactionary alt-rightists, sometimes it's glorious F U L L C O M M U N I S T S. And when it's summer, they all gather in a beautiful shitfest and sling ad hominem left and right. Just go with it, maaaaaaaaaan

Ad hominem is what I see a lot of people get hit for, in a lot of cases. I personally don't really understand why its very difficult for personal attacks or overly-aggressive behavior to be simply left out of the debate. Its possible to get a point across without resorting to personal attacks.
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The United Holy German Reich
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Ex-Nation

Postby The United Holy German Reich » Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:53 am

The moderators have a left-wing bias.

The NS forums have a left-wing bias.

I have a left-wing bias.


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New Rogernomics
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby New Rogernomics » Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:55 am

Galloism wrote:The forums exist on a server running a computer operating system.

By its very nature, that makes it an inanimate object running a program. Inanimate objects cannot be biased.

Ergo, Nationstates is not biased. QED.
Technically it is pretty much impossible to not have some form of bias, especially where people are involved.

If the majority of a forum's members show favoritism towards a particular ideology or world view, then it is possible that they might be opposed to other members displaying an ideology or world view they don't like.

For example, if a forum was filled with hard-line 'capitalists' who hated 'communism', and a 'communist' put forward his/her worldview, it is likely that they will be given a lot of flak, disrespect, and possibly even be forced off the forum by a highly-negative audience. However, it is quite possible to have a community that isn't like that if the admins/mods and the forum members are open-minded about things, but more often than not people give in to the worst of human nature - and the mob mentality.

Computer algorithms (and computers in general) can be be biased, and it is pretty much a myth that they are intrinsically objective.

When Algorithms Discriminate: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/10/upsho ... inate.html
[...]There is a widespread belief that software and algorithms that rely on data are objective. But software is not free of human influence. Algorithms are written and maintained by people, and machine learning algorithms adjust what they do based on people’s behavior. As a result, say researchers in computer science, ethics and law, algorithms can reinforce human prejudices.[...]

Going back to the thread title, 'Are the NS forums biased?', the answer would be yes. But detrimentally to discussion? No.
Last edited by New Rogernomics on Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:32 am

Yes the forums, both user and mod base are biased in a couple of ways.

1. This site has a distinctly western bias, most of the posters and moderators are from western country's and have been brought up in and share a western world view. folks from non western cultures tend to have a difficult time fitting in here, the views that these folks express tends to be wildly derided because of the cultural bias of the site.

2. The userbase, (i dont know enough about the moderators to know) has a distinctly liberal bias. the majority of users are younger than 20 and every survey done shows younger people are more to the left than their parents or older people. The site reflects those break downs fairly accurately. it would be far fetched to expect otherwise

To expect the site not to be biased would be silly. everyone carries their bias's and worldviews with them in everything they do, whether they want to or not.

now is this a bad thing? no. it is what it is. As another poster just mentioned it does not mean debate is shut off, all it means is that expect it to be colored in a way that reflects the makeup of the site.
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Dejanic
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Postby Dejanic » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:36 am

There's a clear left wing bias, with most here being extreme Socialists at best, to Liberals/Social Democrats at the least.
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Community Values
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Ex-Nation

Postby Community Values » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:51 am

I can confirm. NSG made me from a anarcho-capitalist to a self-proclaimed progressive. gg.
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PaNTuXIa
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Ex-Nation

Postby PaNTuXIa » Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:35 am

Great Kauthar wrote:yes, all of the mods are "progressive" socialists who like to censor me and other intellectuals for opposing Islam

Oh, poor you.

And no, the NS forums are not biased. NationStates as a simulator may be, due to Barry's liberal viewpoints, but I think there's a healthy balance of right and left on this forum.
Last edited by PaNTuXIa on Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mike the Progressive
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Ex-Nation

Postby Mike the Progressive » Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:38 am

Galloism wrote:The forums exist on a server running a computer operating system.

By its very nature, that makes it an inanimate object running a program. Inanimate objects cannot be biased.

Ergo, Nationstates is not biased. QED.


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The West Maghrebi Jamahiriya
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Postby The West Maghrebi Jamahiriya » Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:39 am

Mike the Progressive wrote:
Galloism wrote:The forums exist on a server running a computer operating system.

By its very nature, that makes it an inanimate object running a program. Inanimate objects cannot be biased.

Ergo, Nationstates is not biased. QED.


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Socialist Tera
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Ex-Nation

Postby Socialist Tera » Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:12 am

Human beings are always biased people shoving aside positions they do not agree with it and ignoring them.
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USS Monitor
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby USS Monitor » Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:18 am

Galloism wrote:The forums exist on a server running a computer operating system.

By its very nature, that makes it an inanimate object running a program. Inanimate objects cannot be biased.

Ergo, Nationstates is not biased. QED.


Inanimate objects can't be biased? Sweet! :lol:
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The Alexanderians
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Postby The Alexanderians » Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:36 am

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Teemant
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Ex-Nation

Postby Teemant » Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:38 am

Of course. No point of denying it.
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