Latin vs. English

[Gringostan]

We all know that certain words are thought of being intrinsically wrong, where as if we use the Latin word for exactly the same thing, it is held to be proper and noble. An example is the word "excrement". We all can easily recall the English word for it. Yet, whenever we use the English equivalent, it is made into something that a crude, uneducated person would say.
My question is why ? We don't usually speak Latin or the Latin equivalent. So how come the English equivalent for the same word is held to be wrong, crude and vulgar ? Why the clear intolerance for English ? What sayeth thou, O NSers ?

[Southerly Gentleman]

The vernacular is seen as more common, by definition. Highly Latinate forms of words are viewed as more erudite because Latin is not spoken, and relatively few people know it.

[Gringostan]

The vernacular is seen as more common, by definition. Highly Latinate forms of words are viewed as more erudite because Latin is not spoken, and relatively few people know it.

But the problem I have is they are Latin. Latin strikes me as an arcane language system, whereas English is pretty clear to all English speakers. Why say "That animal defecated ", when you could say " a that animal took a dump" ? Is English only spoken by uneducated barbarians who live in primitive huts ? What gives ?

[Souseiseki]

We all know that certain words are thought of being intrinsically wrong, where as if we use the Latin word for exactly the same thing, it is held to be proper and noble. An example is the word "excrement". We all can easily recall the English word for it. Yet, whenever we use the English equivalent, it is made into something that a crude, uneducated person would say.
My question is why ? We don't usually speak Latin or the Latin equivalent. So how come the English equivalent for the same word is held to be wrong, crude and vulgar ? Why the clear intolerance for English ? What sayeth thou, O NSers ?

this is really really short and not 100% correct but

most of our basic vocab is germanic. a lot of our technical vocab is latinate. by and large if you have a germanic version of a word and latinate version of a word the latinate will be more prestigious.

this comes from either

1) when normans invaded and took over. they were in charge and their language was used in the courts etc. so it was more prestigious. they're arguably still in charge today buuuuut eventually we moved back to english for most usages. a large amount of frenchy vocab still remains though. visage is more prestigious than face, utilise is more prestigious than use, etc. words like illegal and government are also by and large from french. this actually becomes a massive mindfuck for english speakers learning french and french speakings learning english. if you don't know a word in french you honestly can just think of the fancy way of saying it in english and have a high chance of getting it right.

2) scientists. as you said, we don't speak latin. they generally learned latin and greek in schools. so they just started naming shit in latin partially for international solidarity, partially because they all knew it and partially to keep the proles out. there were also some concentrated efforts to make our grammar and vocabulary more latinate because muh latin. all that bullshit about not ending a sentence with a proposition is actually a latin rule they forced into a germanic language for no other reason they wanted it to be like latin.

tl;dr words with latin roots became associated with ruling/upper class then with the avademics. it's classism all the way down.

[Atealia]

Probably the long history of roman romanticism that Europe has conducted leading to the civilization being virtually perfect in the eyes of many.

[Gringostan]

Probably the long history of roman romanticism that Europe has conducted leading to the civilization being virtually perfect in the eyes of many.

That seems an obvious discriminatory practice. Why can't I say the aEnglish word for intercourse ? I feel they have tried to replace the English words with Latin and Greek, all because they had to feel "better" than the hoi polo.

[Stirenuk]

The vernacular is seen as more common, by definition. Highly Latinate forms of words are viewed as more erudite because Latin is not spoken, and relatively few people know it.

But the problem I have is they are Latin. Latin strikes me as an arcane language system, whereas English is pretty clear to all English speakers. Why say "That animal defecated ", when you could say " a that animal took a dump" ? Is English only spoken by uneducated barbarians who live in primitive huts ? What gives ?

Lingua Latina musica eīs est.

No, it’s probably because Latin was the language of the learnèd and cultured in the Middle Ages, whereas English (that is, at least until Chaucer, maybe) was seen as a simple-minded language that was incapable of handling higher learning or literature. My guess is just that Europe and the world she assimilated never changed that, and therefore, Latin = Lingua deōrum, and English = language of the mundane.

[Novsvacro]

We all know that certain words are thought of being intrinsically wrong, where as if we use the Latin word for exactly the same thing, it is held to be proper and noble. An example is the word "excrement". We all can easily recall the English word for it. Yet, whenever we use the English equivalent, it is made into something that a crude, uneducated person would say.
My question is why ? We don't usually speak Latin or the Latin equivalent. So how come the English equivalent for the same word is held to be wrong, crude and vulgar ? Why the clear intolerance for English ? What sayeth thou, O NSers ?

English (Anglo-Saxon) was the language of the peasantry and (Norman) French the language of the nobility post-1066. The Norman nobility introduced a thoroughly Latin clergy who happened to be some of the only learned people in all England. Just as many Norman words 'bled' into Anglo-Saxon, many Latinate terms come from the Church's use of Latin.

[Herrebrugh]

We all know that certain words are thought of being intrinsically wrong, where as if we use the Latin word for exactly the same thing, it is held to be proper and noble. An example is the word "excrement". We all can easily recall the English word for it. Yet, whenever we use the English equivalent, it is made into something that a crude, uneducated person would say.
My question is why ? We don't usually speak Latin or the Latin equivalent. So how come the English equivalent for the same word is held to be wrong, crude and vulgar ? Why the clear intolerance for English ? What sayeth thou, O NSers ?

this is really really short and not 100% correct but

most of our basic vocab is germanic. a lot of our technical vocab is latinate. by and large if you have a germanic version of a word and latinate version of a word the latinate will be more prestigious.

this comes from either

1) when normans invaded and took over. they were in charge and their language was used in the courts etc. so it was more prestigious. they're arguably still in charge today buuuuut eventually we moved back to english for most usages. a large amount of frenchy vocab still remains though. visage is more prestigious than face, utilise is more prestigious than use, etc. words like illegal and government are also by and large from french. this actually becomes a massive mindfuck for english speakers learning french and french speakings learning english. if you don't know a word in french you honestly can just think of the fancy way of saying it in english and have a high chance of getting it right.

2) scientists. as you said, we don't speak latin. they generally learned latin and greek in schools. so they just started naming shit in latin partially for international solidarity, partially because they all knew it and partially to keep the proles out. there were also some concentrated efforts to make our grammar and vocabulary more latinate because muh latin. all that bullshit about not ending a sentence with a proposition is actually a latin rule they forced into a germanic language for no other reason they wanted it to be like latin.

tl;dr words with latin roots became associated with ruling/upper class then with the avademics. it's classism all the way down.

"Face" and "use" both come from (Old) French, though... (Unless I'm reading into things here, and you don't mean these words as examples of original English [thus Germanic] vocabulary in comparison with French-derived vocabulary).

The proper Germanic term for "face" would be something incorporating "sight" (like in Netherlandish "gezicht"; compare "zicht" and "sight"). No idea about "use", but it would probably be similar to "gebruiken"/"brauchen". EDIT: here it is: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/brook#English

[Souseiseki]

Probably the long history of roman romanticism that Europe has conducted leading to the civilization being virtually perfect in the eyes of many.

That seems an obvious discriminatory practice. Why can't I say the aEnglish word for intercourse ? I feel they have tried to replace the English words with Latin and Greek, all because they had to feel "better" than the hoi polo.

there's always going to be formal and informal registers and euphemisms so don't except to be able to use it for very long anyway

[Novsvacro]

For an explanation of this kind of language mixture and the classification of speech according to class (among other topics), I would recommend reading The Power of Babel by John McWhorter.

EDIT: Or better still, Our Magnificent Bastard Tongue: The Untold History of English by McWhorter.

[Dinake]

Probably the long history of roman romanticism that Europe has conducted leading to the civilization being virtually perfect in the eyes of many.

That seems an obvious discriminatory practice. Why can't I say the aEnglish word for intercourse ? I feel they have tried to replace the English words with Latin and Greek, all because they had to feel "better" than the hoi polo.

You can. And I would add that the usual English term for intercourse is rather more common than a highly latinate form- which isn't held to be any more polite.
Anyway, there are Latin curse words. Merda, Futuere(not technically a curse, but a vulgar word nonetheless), Paedicare, etc. Using them isn't polite at all.

[Ifreann]

Probably the long history of roman romanticism that Europe has conducted leading to the civilization being virtually perfect in the eyes of many.

That seems an obvious discriminatory practice. Why can't I say the aEnglish word for intercourse ? I feel they have tried to replace the English words with Latin and Greek, all because they

They who?

had to feel "better" than the hoi polo.

'Hoi polloi' is Greek.

[Saint-Thor]

Is English only spoken by uneducated barbarians who live in primitive huts ? What gives ?

It used to be the case but not anymore since the Norman invasion. Most words you believe to be Latin are actually French words brought by the Normans.

visage is more prestigious than face, utilise is more prestigious than use, etc. words like illegal and government are also by and large from french.

Visage, face, utilise and use are all French words, originally. So they are not the best examples.

And not all English words with French roots come from Latin. For example, "To spy" comes from "Espiier", an old Frankish word (so germanic). In French we still use the modern form "épier" and "espionner".

[Gringostan]

We all know that certain words are thought of being intrinsically wrong, where as if we use the Latin word for exactly the same thing, it is held to be proper and noble. An example is the word "excrement". We all can easily recall the English word for it. Yet, whenever we use the English equivalent, it is made into something that a crude, uneducated person would say.
My question is why ? We don't usually speak Latin or the Latin equivalent. So how come the English equivalent for the same word is held to be wrong, crude and vulgar ? Why the clear intolerance for English ? What sayeth thou, O NSers ?

English (Anglo-Saxon) was the language of the peasantry and (Norman) French the language of the nobility post-1066. The Norman nobility introduced a thoroughly Latin clergy who happened to be some of the only learned people in all England. Just as many Norman words 'bled' into Anglo-Saxon, many Latinate terms come from the Church's use of Latin.

Good point. But even a Pacific islander would be able to talk about thermonuclear explosion s. True, he wouldn't use English, Latin or Greek words for it, but he would be able to explain it all using his language. So, in reality, the " superiority" we experience by using our language to explain it is false. There is NO REASON to think we are more knowledgeable or understand more than the Pacific islander.

[Souseiseki]

this is really really short and not 100% correct but

most of our basic vocab is germanic. a lot of our technical vocab is latinate. by and large if you have a germanic version of a word and latinate version of a word the latinate will be more prestigious.

this comes from either

1) when normans invaded and took over. they were in charge and their language was used in the courts etc. so it was more prestigious. they're arguably still in charge today buuuuut eventually we moved back to english for most usages. a large amount of frenchy vocab still remains though. visage is more prestigious than face, utilise is more prestigious than use, etc. words like illegal and government are also by and large from french. this actually becomes a massive mindfuck for english speakers learning french and french speakings learning english. if you don't know a word in french you honestly can just think of the fancy way of saying it in english and have a high chance of getting it right.

2) scientists. as you said, we don't speak latin. they generally learned latin and greek in schools. so they just started naming shit in latin partially for international solidarity, partially because they all knew it and partially to keep the proles out. there were also some concentrated efforts to make our grammar and vocabulary more latinate because muh latin. all that bullshit about not ending a sentence with a proposition is actually a latin rule they forced into a germanic language for no other reason they wanted it to be like latin.

tl;dr words with latin roots became associated with ruling/upper class then with the avademics. it's classism all the way down.

"Face" and "use" both come from (Old) French, though... (Unless I'm reading into things here, and you don't mean these words as examples of original English [thus Germanic] vocabulary in comparison with French-derived vocabulary).

The proper Germanic term for "face" would be something incorporating "sight" (like in Netherlandish "gezicht"; compare "zicht" and "sight"). No idea about "use", but it would probably be similar to "gebruiken"/"brauchen".

i'll admit they were the first things that came to my mind because it's late and i fucked up. we're so french i can't even tell what is and is not french anymore.

maybe talk / converse is a better example. or eat/drink and consume. you know what i mean though.

[Novsvacro]

English (Anglo-Saxon) was the language of the peasantry and (Norman) French the language of the nobility post-1066. The Norman nobility introduced a thoroughly Latin clergy who happened to be some of the only learned people in all England. Just as many Norman words 'bled' into Anglo-Saxon, many Latinate terms come from the Church's use of Latin.

Good point. But even a Pacific islander would be able to talk about thermonuclear explosion s. True, he wouldn't use English, Latin or Greek words for it, but he would be able to explain it all using his language. So, in reality, the " superiority" we experience by using our language to explain it is false. There is NO REASON to think we are more knowledgeable or understand more than the Pacific islander.

To be fair, if one lived in 1130 AD and incorporated Latin terms into your speech, or especially your writing, it was a sure sign of a comprehensive and advanced education, seeing as how nearly all important literature was in Latin.

To be a Pacific Islander with no knowledge of Latin or Greek in the Middle Ages would certainly mean one was not as knowledgeable as, say, a clergyman (that is, if one also had no access to Asian literature).

[Angleter]

In the case of 'excrement', it's most likely a case of using longer, more obscure words as euphemisms. It can also apply to other foreign languages (see 'cojones' for 'bollocks', or a whole host of Yiddish terms), or to essentially English terms ('make love' instead of 'fuck'). Of course, everyone knows what the euphemism means (except, perhaps, children, which is another benefit they have), but they're not the word that's most associated with the meaning in question, so there's a sort of sense of distance.

Obviously, this is all speaking very generally.

[Kubra]

Wanna know who speaks english? Peasants, celtic peasants.
Wanna know who speaks latin? IMPERIVM ROMANVM
SENATVS POPVLVSQVE ROMANVS

[Souseiseki]

Wanna know who speaks english? Peasants, celtic peasants.
Wanna know who speaks latin? IMPERIVM ROMANVM
SENATVS POPVLVSQVE ROMANVS

>cetlic peasants
>english

check thy privilege saxon

[Kubra]

Wanna know who speaks english? Peasants, celtic peasants.
Wanna know who speaks latin? IMPERIVM ROMANVM
SENATVS POPVLVSQVE ROMANVS

>cetlic peasants
>english

check thy privilege saxon

10/10 sides are in orbit

[Angleter]

We all know that certain words are thought of being intrinsically wrong, where as if we use the Latin word for exactly the same thing, it is held to be proper and noble. An example is the word "excrement". We all can easily recall the English word for it. Yet, whenever we use the English equivalent, it is made into something that a crude, uneducated person would say.
My question is why ? We don't usually speak Latin or the Latin equivalent. So how come the English equivalent for the same word is held to be wrong, crude and vulgar ? Why the clear intolerance for English ? What sayeth thou, O NSers ?

English (Anglo-Saxon) was the language of the peasantry and (Norman) French the language of the nobility post-1066. The Norman nobility introduced a thoroughly Latin clergy who happened to be some of the only learned people in all England. Just as many Norman words 'bled' into Anglo-Saxon, many Latinate terms come from the Church's use of Latin.

Latin terms being introduced via (heh) the clergy dated back to well before the Conquest. If anything, the Conquest may have reduced the influx of Latin loanwords, since it set up Norman French as an alternative prestige language to borrow from if, say, a word was needed to fill some sort of gap.

[Gringostan]

Good point. But even a Pacific islander would be able to talk about thermonuclear explosion s. True, he wouldn't use English, Latin or Greek words for it, but he would be able to explain it all using his language. So, in reality, the " superiority" we experience by using our language to explain it is false. There is NO REASON to think we are more knowledgeable or understand more than the Pacific islander.

To be fair, if one lived in 1130 AD and incorporated Latin terms into your speech, or especially your writing, it was a sure sign of a comprehensive and advanced education, seeing as how nearly all important literature was in Latin.

To be a Pacific Islander with no knowledge of Latin or Greek in the Middle Ages would certainly mean one was not as knowledgeable as, say, a clergyman (that is, if one also had no access to Asian literature).

But today, that Pacific islander would have no problem explaining it. True, he wouldn't use a language or words that we know, but he could explain it using words common to other Pacific islanders.
By the way, I think we would less problems if we excised French from our English.

[Souseiseki]

To be fair, if one lived in 1130 AD and incorporated Latin terms into your speech, or especially your writing, it was a sure sign of a comprehensive and advanced education, seeing as how nearly all important literature was in Latin.

To be a Pacific Islander with no knowledge of Latin or Greek in the Middle Ages would certainly mean one was not as knowledgeable as, say, a clergyman (that is, if one also had no access to Asian literature).

But today, that Pacific islander would have no problem explaining it. True, he wouldn't use a language or words that we know, but he could explain it using words common to other Pacific islanders.
By the way, I think we would less problems if we excised French from our English.

but both problem and excise are french/latin words

we're in too deep

[Novsvacro]

To be fair, if one lived in 1130 AD and incorporated Latin terms into your speech, or especially your writing, it was a sure sign of a comprehensive and advanced education, seeing as how nearly all important literature was in Latin.

To be a Pacific Islander with no knowledge of Latin or Greek in the Middle Ages would certainly mean one was not as knowledgeable as, say, a clergyman (that is, if one also had no access to Asian literature).

But today, that Pacific islander would have no problem explaining it. True, he wouldn't use a language or words that we know, but he could explain it using words common to other Pacific islanders.
By the way, I think we would less problems if we excised French from our English.

French is an essential part of English. We'd be better off learning Frisian than trying to resurrect Old English as a living language.