The Jewish Situation

[Virtannis]

As a Jew who has always lived in a relatively christian area of the U.S. (a.k.a. all of it), knowing how the U.S. has treated us in the past, and experiencing the overwhelming dislike of our Israeli favoritism among the populace, I've always felt relatively insecure in the U.S. So, nations from the states or otherwise, how do you guys feel about us, and what do you think of supporting Israel as a nation?

Actually in the US specifically the situation of the Jews is actually very good and as far as I'm concerned the US is also quite pro-Israeli (Many criticize the settlements for example but that's very legitimate and I myself for example think the settlements only bring harm, the only other thing frequently criticized is the aid and although I think it benefits both countries I can understand where an opposition to it comes from).

Sincerely, An Israeli.

[Virtannis]

Well, I think I've never met a Jew in the States who was truly uncomfortable with being Jewish in this country. If you're truly worried about persecution, I recommend getting active in the local community.
On Isreal, I will condemn it till the end of days

Even if there's peace you'll condemn us? Why?

[Virtannis]

Jews are a'ight.
I really don't like Isreal. But Zionists have understandable reasons to support Isreal. Even if I really don't agree with them at all.

And I think it's a pity that certain arguements such as "Ashkenazi are Khazars" is used in a negative light. When that can be used to bring Jews and Ural Altaic Muslim cultures together against the Wahhabis. And other threats.

(Funny how Jobbik uses that arguement, then calls themselves Turan.)

Except we're not Khazars according to genetic studies so I guess your diplomatic plan has been aborted

[USS Monitor]

Jews are cool
Zionism sucks
Having a nation set up on theocratic grounds was wrong and Israel needs to stop being oppressive dicks and stop building on Palestinian homelands
whoevers in charge of Palestine now needs to get over the religious division and actually help the Palestinian people

^This.

Jewish communities I've seen in the US are pretty nice, but Israel really needs to rethink the way they deal with the Palestinians.

[Virtannis]

I'm fine with Jewish people, I judge a community by its people, not by its history. So far I don't see the Jewish community forming gangs or causing crime

I HATE the American attitude of Israel though, the USA spends 2 billion dollars on Israel, and because of that, we spend 1 billion dollars on Egypt just so another Middle Eastern war between the Jews and the Muslims won't occur again. We have politicians putting Israel ahead of America (Ted Cruz), and for such a close ally, they don't pay their fair share. If Israel existed without the USA playing as a baby-sitter, fine, have your own country, but when the USA does so much for so little, then yes, I don't want to support any country who takes advantage of mine.

Ted Cruz is weird lol
I understand where you come from in this case but I'll still try to explain why the aid exists.
The American military is by now so huge, that it constantly needs buyers from outside, so the US sends "aid" to it's allies subsidizing American military equipment and by doing that also gains total diplomatic superiority and influence (You might also call it a diplomatic monopoly) in which a country ("patron") might prevent another ("receiver") from doing something that is non-benevolent to the patron, for example- the US prevented the sales of the Phalcon from Israel to China.
Now, on top of that in Israel's case we have highly developed intelligence agencies, and according to a prestigious American Diplomat (I don't remember who said that, or perhaps it was a high ranking military-man?) said about Israel that it's worth 5 CIA's.
Also, the existence of allies which military alliances is necessary if a country wants to be a great power, and especially a superpower as one of the most important things is the overwhelming military ability to enforce it's will onto any other country, Israel has American military bases due to the alliance and therefore in case that there is an American attack in the Middle East (Hell, there nearly was on Syria back in 2013 I think it was) it is necessary for the Americans to have a convenient place in which they may dominate the area.

Don't get me wrong, I get if people oppose the aids the US gives to other countries from Pacifist, Isolationist or whatever reasons but I still thought it's worth explaining.

[Virtannis]

Jews are cool
Zionism sucks
Having a nation set up on theocratic grounds was wrong and Israel needs to stop being oppressive dicks and stop building on Palestinian homelands
whoevers in charge of Palestine now needs to get over the religious division and actually help the Palestinian people

^This.

Jewish communities I've seen in the US are pretty nice, but Israel really needs to rethink the way they deal with the Palestinians.

A mistreatment has nothing to do with Zionism, I'm for 2 states, against the settlements and so on but I am a Zionist.
In the past Zionism meant the establishing of a State which would be a Jewish nation-state and a haven (Basically a national movement like any other except for the fact that it also had the humanitarian aspect of a haven), and currently Zionism just practically means supporting the existence of Israel and in Israel it only means "being patriotic" and therefore isn't a right-wing or religious nor racist (There are factions which are, don't get me wrong, but they are not the mainstream, and even among the mainstream Zionist ideologies there are major differences).

[Souseiseki]

Your unsourced post on The Mod-Sanctioned Israel/Palestine thread, yeah.

the fucking summit

I mean, they conflict with your posts, which were sourced with none other than your own post, they're definitely wrong.

show me the actual ideas discussed at the summit and where they disagree with what i have posted

Can you list three sources that state countries recognize Vermont as part of the US?

vermont isn't internationally recognized as an occupied territory

You know who Ian Kelly is? He's not a lawyer of international law, he was a language teacher who used to teach Russian for a living until he started representing the US to various troubled states

he was echoing what obama said, which in turn reflects the 30+ year policy of the united states which has not changed. you cannot worm your way out of this.

I didn't say the EU, did I? Just like the UN recognizes Palestine as an observer, but Myanmar, a member of the UN, does not.

i though i'd throw it in to give you an idea. the EU itself, the UN, all EU member states, the united states, canada, iapan. (i edited those in incase you missed them) the list is getting pretty big though it's hard to find data on small countries. since, as mentioned, the status of the occupied territories (hint: there is a reason they are called this) is such a touchy issue, it is guaranteed anyone deviating from the rest of the international community would make the news. australia almost changed their policy. almost. this was in the news. if there is a country that actually supports israel on this matter you should be able to find it. my challenge for you to source three countries is still open and i note that you have made no attempt to do so beyond an absurdly ill fitting false equivalence.

i am still not sure if you're just holding out or if you're legitimately unaware of just how fucked israel is in regards to the occupied territories.

The settlements are not illegal, you are objectively wrong to claim they are

no, dude, they really are. just because israel says they're legal doesn't mean they are, and israel is the only country saying it. if every country but yours (including your steadfast allies) is in agreement that what you are doing is in violation of international law what you are doing may, in actual fact, be against international law.

Still avoiding the point I made, since it triumphs absolutely. Having to give up 8% of your claims is not an excuse to stop peace, especially when Judea and Samaria + Gaza comprises more than 20% of Israel's claims, but they were willing to give it up in pursuit of peace.

it doesn't triumph absolutely. give up your land (land which israel is internationally recognized to be illegally occupying), your water rights, any right to return and never have a military and be subject to israel in all security matters with them deploying their military in your country at whim while you forfeit the ability to make any further demands and have israel still fundamentally control east jerusalem and pretty much your entire is an utter dogshit deal.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Jews are cool. But anybody who supports this Zionist state that is stealing Palestinian land, killing the native population and oppressing them is condoning genocide. The Zionist State reminds me of America, past and present. #FREEPALESTINE! I hope I didn't offend anyone.

And what do you mean by "#FREEPALESTINE"? End the Jewish character of Israel? That's an unacceptable solution. The Jews once again become a people without a homeland and Palestinians (likely with a understandable axe to grind) become the majority, placing the Israeli Jews in potential peril.

End the occupation? I'd love to get behind that, though it needs to be a little better thought out than just getting Israel out. There's no effective infrastructure and no economy. If Israel pulled out completely today, Palestine would be a failed state.

I say don't free Palestine, make a temporary two-state confederation that lasts for ten-twenty years to build up the Palestinian state so that it can stand separate from Israel. Then free Palestine.

Hmm. I understand what you're saying.

[Virtannis]

Israel really ought to annex all of Palestine if it really would settle the conflict once and for all. The Germans lost Konigsberg to Russia, the Arabs shouldn't think that they can't lose Gaza and the West Bank to Israel if they don't stop provoking the Jewish state.

lol I don't want to control the West Bank and Gaza, why should we? Even Jordan and Egypt do not want those territories! The fact that the irrational right-wing here wants to control those territories for sentimentalist reasons doesn't mean that it's good for us, in fact I think it causes unprecedented damage for us- we need to have a peace treaty with the Palestinians as soon as possible- the sooner, the better.

[Virtannis]

Jews are cool. But anybody who supports this Zionist state that is stealing Palestinian land, killing the native population and oppressing them is condoning genocide. The Zionist State reminds me of America, past and present. #FREEPALESTINE! I hope I didn't offend anyone.

There isn't any genocide here. There's military occupation in the West Bank and there's a lot to say about that, but no genocide, even if you don't like Israel it doesn't change that fact.

[Crockerland]

Jews are cool. But anybody who supports this Zionist state that is stealing Palestinian land, killing the native population and oppressing them is condoning genocide. The Zionist State reminds me of America, past and present. #FREEPALESTINE! I hope I didn't offend anyone.

What the actual fuck are you talking about? http://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-20-countries-with-the-highest-population-growth.html

[Jochistan]

Jews are a'ight.
I really don't like Isreal. But Zionists have understandable reasons to support Isreal. Even if I really don't agree with them at all.

And I think it's a pity that certain arguements such as "Ashkenazi are Khazars" is used in a negative light. When that can be used to bring Jews and Ural Altaic Muslim cultures together against the Wahhabis. And other threats.

(Funny how Jobbik uses that arguement, then calls themselves Turan.)

Except we're not Khazars according to genetic studies so I guess your diplomatic plan has been aborted

What genetic studies? And I'm not using it in an asshole way like most worthless natsocs do.

It seems as though some studies may point to it being a reasonable theory. Ir at least one reasonable theory of many.
http://m.gbe.oxfordjournals.org/content ... hort?rss=1

[Grande Republic of Arcadia]

Jews are cool
Zionism sucks
Having a nation set up on theocratic grounds was wrong and Israel needs to stop being oppressive dicks and stop building on Palestinian homelands
whoevers in charge of Palestine now needs to get over the religious division and actually help the Palestinian people

Palestine is Isreal's

[The Snazzylands]

If you feel insecure around non-Jews you're totally free to move to Israel or Hollywood.

[Virtannis]

Except we're not Khazars according to genetic studies so I guess your diplomatic plan has been aborted

What genetic studies? And I'm not using it in an asshole way like most worthless natsocs do.

It seems as though some studies may point to it being a reasonable theory. Ir at least one reasonable theory of many.
http://m.gbe.oxfordjournals.org/content ... hort?rss=1

There are some studies which attempt to show a different approach, but it's generally speaking not the scientific consensus:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews

I have checked some of the studies trying to connect us to the Khazars, the majority of them use highly speculative methods (ahem ahem Elhaik ahem ahem).

[Neutraligon]

^This.

Jewish communities I've seen in the US are pretty nice, but Israel really needs to rethink the way they deal with the Palestinians.

A mistreatment has nothing to do with Zionism, I'm for 2 states, against the settlements and so on but I am a Zionist.
In the past Zionism meant the establishing of a State which would be a Jewish nation-state and a haven (Basically a national movement like any other except for the fact that it also had the humanitarian aspect of a haven), and currently Zionism just practically means supporting the existence of Israel and in Israel it only means "being patriotic" and therefore isn't a right-wing or religious nor racist (There are factions which are, don't get me wrong, but they are not the mainstream, and even among the mainstream Zionist ideologies there are major differences).

Funny thing, the Muslims of the area refused a two state solution when Israel was first created.

[Virtannis]

A mistreatment has nothing to do with Zionism, I'm for 2 states, against the settlements and so on but I am a Zionist.
In the past Zionism meant the establishing of a State which would be a Jewish nation-state and a haven (Basically a national movement like any other except for the fact that it also had the humanitarian aspect of a haven), and currently Zionism just practically means supporting the existence of Israel and in Israel it only means "being patriotic" and therefore isn't a right-wing or religious nor racist (There are factions which are, don't get me wrong, but they are not the mainstream, and even among the mainstream Zionist ideologies there are major differences).

Funny thing, the Muslims of the area refused a two state solution when Israel was first created.

I'm aware of that, and?

[Neutraligon]

Funny thing, the Muslims of the area refused a two state solution when Israel was first created.

I'm aware of that, and?

So i find it funny that they now are insisting on a two state situation once they lost.

[Rusozak]

Jews are cool
Zionism sucks
Having a nation set up on theocratic grounds was wrong and Israel needs to stop being oppressive dicks and stop building on Palestinian homelands
whoevers in charge of Palestine now needs to get over the religious division and actually help the Palestinian people

Basically this. I have no problem with jews. It's the state of Israel that I have quarrel with. I think there are any "good guys" to the Israel-Palestine conflicts.

[West Aurelia]

Criticism of Israel =/= anti-Semitism.

[House of Judah]

Criticism of Israel =/= anti-Semitism.

True, but Antizionism = Antisemitism.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Criticism of Israel =/= anti-Semitism.

True, but Antizionism = Antisemitism.

Also wrong.

[House of Judah]

True, but Antizionism = Antisemitism.

Also wrong.

Unless it is rooted in an absolute rejection of nation states as homelands for ethnic groups (which represents the vast majority of nation states, so good luck with that) Antizionism is the singling out of the Jewish people as being not deserving somehow of their own homeland which is Antisemetic.

[Jamzmania]

I'm aware of that, and?

So i find it funny that they now are insisting on a two state situation once they lost.

They refused a two-state solution multiple times throughout recent history.

[Republic of the Cristo]

How much oppression? How about:

The inquisition
The crusades
Slavery
Being exiled by dozens of nations
Being placed as a bottom caste
More slavery
The holocaust
hundreds of pogroms
Even more slavery

Now make that happen non-stop for the next 3,500 years. I think they deserve a bit of slack by now

It's a bit of an odd conclusion to go from "Jews are historically horribly oppressed" to "so let's give them their own country". Oppression alone does not give an ethnic group, let alone a religious one, the right to their own country. Much less when the land of that new country is populated by people who are neither ethnically nor religiously Jewish.

Regardless, Israel already exists, and what's done is done. Still though, historical oppression does not give a group the right to oppress another group, particularly when the latter is entirely unrelated to the oppression of the former. You don't get to play Hitler just because you were on his kill list.

Oppression does not give a group the right of nationhood, our desire to end oppression does and did. The reason why Israel was created was to create a safe haven for Jews, so that they would not continue to suffer en mass. Their religion should not be a factor to hamper this, and I do not know why you would insinuate it to be.

Where else would the Jews have gone? They could not stay in Europe, as their were far too many Nazi sympathizers left; Britain and America could only accept so many at a time; and no matter where else you chose, they would be encroaching on someone's land, so why not give them their homeland? Also, did you seriously compare the Jews to Hitler?

Lets compare the two and their actions
[url]
Hitler[/url]
Began WW2
Set up Death Camps which would kill around 6 million people
Sought the violent extermination of Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, blacks, mixed persons, communists, international socialists, union leaders, Jehovah witness, and slavs
set up a totalitarian dictatorship
Set up work camps which implemented slave labor

[url]Israel[/url]
Moved people from their homes to new locations. A people whom, even before the Israeli occupation, sought their destruction.

Israel is one of the most tolerant nations in the world. My reasoning: despite Muslims and Arab peoples seeking their utter and complete destruction, and their numerous attempts, they have not taken measures to enslave, murder, or even degrade the Arab and Muslim populations in their nation. In fact, they even try to live alongside them. We should be heralding Israel for their tolerance and forgiveness!