Europe just after the end of WW II

[The Black Forrest]

and outside Britain, Rotterdam, Stalingrad, Warsaw, Leningrad etc

Over 70 million people died in the War, both sides did terrible thing but the vast majority were committed by the Axis and it is entirely incomprehensible to say the Allies were as bad as the Axis. Yes the Red Army treated German prisoners horrendously, the bombing of Dresden was useless and horrific but compared to the Holocaust and Nazi crimes? No comparison.

Here comes 'muh Holocaust TM' again...
What was it 6 million or 11 million for you? Even though official figures have reduced it to around 1,500,000 in general and still going down...

Where is the source of your "official" figures?

[Waldriech]

The Germans deserve it for electing dangerous leaders. They had ample time to shot Hitler.

Hitler was not elected. Paul Von Hindenburg witnessed his popularity in the Wemar Republic, and chose him as his running mate. Hindenburg was elected. Hindenburg soon died, and shortly after Hitler was sworn in as Chancellor.

[Imperializt Russia]

Here comes 'muh Holocaust TM' again...
What was it 6 million or 11 million for you? Even though official figures have reduced it to around 1,500,000 in general and still going down...

Where is the source of your "official" figures?

There floats around Red Cross documents from after the war that were trying to piece together casualties from surviving registers at the death camps.
Due to the destruction of records, many camps being in Soviet hands, and the Nazis keeping less meticulous records at the end of the war, these Red Cross figures are astoundingly low. And, as the conspiracy theorists leave out, the Red Cross explained this as I just have.

[Vassenor]

Where is the source of your "official" figures?

There floats around Red Cross documents from after the war that were trying to piece together casualties from surviving registers at the death camps.
Due to the destruction of records, many camps being in Soviet hands, and the Nazis keeping less meticulous records at the end of the war, these Red Cross figures are astoundingly low. And, as the conspiracy theorists leave out, the Red Cross explained this as I just have.

Inconvenient facts like context often get lost when people have a narrative to push.

[Imperializt Russia]

There floats around Red Cross documents from after the war that were trying to piece together casualties from surviving registers at the death camps.
Due to the destruction of records, many camps being in Soviet hands, and the Nazis keeping less meticulous records at the end of the war, these Red Cross figures are astoundingly low. And, as the conspiracy theorists leave out, the Red Cross explained this as I just have.

Inconvenient facts like context often get lost when people have a narrative to push.

One of the big conspiracies is that these documents apparently used to feature in West German textbooks shortly after the war, but were eventually dropped from later editions for whatever reason.

[Vassenor]

Also I find it funny that apparently if it's "only" 1.5 million dead that somehow makes the whole thing OK.

[Old Tyrannia]

I'm not seeing any problem with deporting people who are only in your country because their country invaded your country and is trying to colonize it..

Many of the German-speaking peoples deported from Eastern Europe en masse following the war had lived in those areas for centuries, such as the Baltic Germans and the Danube Swabians. Most had nothing to do with the crimes committed by the Nazi German government and armed forces. Many of the Baltic Germans were actually relocated by the Nazis themselves as part of their "Heim ins Reich" policy. Those who didn't wish to leave their homes were treated with suspicion and regarded as "traitors" by the NSDAP. The Yugoslavs under Tito interned some 170,000 Danube Swabians in camps following the war, some 50,000 of whom died of mistreatment. Others were deported to the USSR where they were utilised as slave labourers.

The treatment of ethnic and linguistic Germans by Eastern Europeans after the end of the war might be understandable in the context of the appalling crimes of the German government and military during the war, but that does not make it justified and we should not pretend that it does.

[Jetan]

I'm not seeing any problem with deporting people who are only in your country because their country invaded your country and is trying to colonize it..

Many of the German-speaking peoples deported from Eastern Europe en masse following the war had lived in those areas for centuries, such as the Baltic Germans and the Danube Swabians. Most had nothing to do with the crimes committed by the Nazi German government and armed forces. Many of the Baltic Germans were actually relocated by the Nazis themselves as part of their "Heim ins Reich" policy. Those who didn't wish to leave their homes were treated with suspicion and regarded as "traitors" by the NSDAP. The Yugoslavs under Tito interned some 170,000 Danube Swabians in camps following the war, some 50,000 of whom died of mistreatment. Others were deported to the USSR where they were utilised as slave labourers.

The treatment of ethnic and linguistic Germans by Eastern Europeans after the end of the war might be understandable in the context of the appalling crimes of the German government and military during the war, but that does not make it justified and we should not pretend that it does.

This. For the most part volksdeutsch had nothing to do with the nazis.

[Old Tyrannia]

The Germans deserve it for electing dangerous leaders. They had ample time to shot Hitler.

Hitler was not elected. Paul Von Hindenburg witnessed his popularity in the Wemar Republic, and chose him as his running mate. Hindenburg was elected. Hindenburg soon died, and shortly after Hitler was sworn in as Chancellor.

You're way out there. Hitler was never Hindenburg's "running mate;" Germany had no such thing, as there was no Vice-President in the Weimar constitution. Hindenburg actually hated "that little Bohemian corporal," as he dubbed Hitler, and only ran in the presidential election (having already served as president once and wanting to retire) because he was told that he was the only one who could beat Hitler. He eventually appointed Hitler as chancellor, after his first two choices proved unable to form a coalition with a majority in the Reichstag, the Nazis having gained a plurality of seats (but not a majority). So Hitler did win an election, although he didn't hold a majority. He initially headed a right-wing coalition government, but pretty quickly subverted the constitution and pushed his coalition "partners" out of government. Upon Hindenburg's death, Hitler, who was already chancellor, made himself president as well. This represented the removal of the last real barrier to the Nazis' dictatorship, although the army, specifically the "Old Guard" of the Prussian officer corps, would remain a major source of opposition to the Nazis for some time.

[The Two Jerseys]

Many of the German-speaking peoples deported from Eastern Europe en masse following the war had lived in those areas for centuries, such as the Baltic Germans and the Danube Swabians. Most had nothing to do with the crimes committed by the Nazi German government and armed forces. Many of the Baltic Germans were actually relocated by the Nazis themselves as part of their "Heim ins Reich" policy. Those who didn't wish to leave their homes were treated with suspicion and regarded as "traitors" by the NSDAP. The Yugoslavs under Tito interned some 170,000 Danube Swabians in camps following the war, some 50,000 of whom died of mistreatment. Others were deported to the USSR where they were utilised as slave labourers.

The treatment of ethnic and linguistic Germans by Eastern Europeans after the end of the war might be understandable in the context of the appalling crimes of the German government and military during the war, but that does not make it justified and we should not pretend that it does.

This. For the most part volksdeutsch had nothing to do with the nazis.

Aside from being an excuse for the Nazis to retake "German" land from other countries.

[Keshokif]

The Germans deserve it for electing dangerous leaders. They had ample time to shot Hitler.

Hitler was not elected. Paul Von Hindenburg witnessed his popularity in the Wemar Republic, and chose him as his running mate. Hindenburg was elected. Hindenburg soon died, and shortly after Hitler was sworn in as Chancellor.

I'm fairly sure that the Weimar Republic didn't have "running mates". He ran against Hindenburg for President, and only after Franz von Papen and Alfred Hugenberg pressured Hindenburg to appoint a chancellor independent from political parties did Hitler ever become chancellor. He later forced into effect a bill which would enable him to become Head of State once Hindenburg died, and he successfully removed all opposition. I'm fairly sure he never won a majority until the Nazis abolished secret ballots and threatened reprisals against anyone who voted against them, but he still came darned close. Do I blame the German people for electing him? No, no I don't. He appeared to be an honest person in a time of corruption and lies, and no-one knew how terrible he'd be. But the point stands that he did run in elections, and got into power because of them.

[Napkiraly]

Did we put the Nazis on trial for firebombing British cities?

The Germans didn't firebomb British cities. They bombed them, but didn't set fire to them. Entirely different scenario.

Tell that to Coventry and London.

[Jetan]

This. For the most part volksdeutsch had nothing to do with the nazis.

Aside from being an excuse for the Nazis to retake "German" land from other countries.

You can't blame people for existing.

[Napkiraly]

The Germans deserve it for electing dangerous leaders. They had ample time to shot Hitler.

You act like killing Hitler was easy.

I mean he had I think an entire SS regiment dedicated to protecting him.

[Napkiraly]

Here comes 'muh Holocaust TM' again...
What was it 6 million or 11 million for you? Even though official figures have reduced it to around 1,500,000 in general and still going down...

Where is the source of your "official" figures?

Stormfront.com

[Jetan]

You act like killing Hitler was easy.

I mean he had I think an entire SS regiment dedicated to protecting him.

And survived dozens of assasination attempts.

[The Grey Wolf]

The Germans deserve it for electing dangerous leaders. They had ample time to shot Hitler.

The Germans didn't elect Hitler and even if they had, this does not justify collective responsibility for an entire ethnic group.

[Miasto Lodz]

Then there was Poland which had to deal with the 16 million leftover German civilians that had moved in.

Not really. Thre were less than 5M Germans left within "Yalta Poland's" bordes. All the rest fled with the retreating German military way before.

Some were treated like the Jewish Europeans had been treated in German.

Whoa! Not just the Jews were the object of planned extermination by the hands of Germans during the WW2.

The Germans were even sent to the same places the Germans had kept the Jewish Europeans.

Not really. The camps were placed in:
- Toszek (supervised by Soviet NKVD),
- Jaworzno (forced labour camp created by Soviets and Polish communists for both Germans and Polish patriots fighting the communists)
- Łambinowice (former POW camp - Stalag VIII B),
- Potulice (former forced labour camp for Poles)

The Germans had done many atrocities during the war. But including in these attacks against ethnic Germans were some Germans who were not fascist and had fought the fascist.

So were the victims of allied carpet bombings. This is what happens when one side starts to purposefully target the other side's civilians.

So what do you think. Should the victors had been a little more civilized when it came to the Germans civilians or not.

If the victim nations, especially Jews, wanted to be "more symmetrical" there would be no one left to speak German apart from Switzerland.

[Questers]

So what do you think. Should the victors had been a little more civilized when it came to the Germans civilians or not.

No.

[Renewed Imperial Germany]

The Brutality against many German civilians was not needed at all, but at the same time the people of Europe, especially Eastern Europe had endured brutal occupations and attempts at ethnic cleansing at the hands of the Germans, so its honestly not that hard to see why they would attack like that once the war ended. I am not justifying it and think it went way out of proportion and should have been reserved for those actually carried out the crimes of the german government and military and those who had a hand in it, but it its somewhat understandable for why it happened.

And to be honest, probably would not have been able to stop it even if they tried. Well not all of it anyway. If i had personally went through it back then, and had my family go through, honestly dont know what my view would be, i hope i wouldnt do it but, i dont know really.

Germans saw themselves raped and abused brutally by Russians. Would that justify shooting and beating and abusing every ethnic Russian in Germany?

[Risottia]

The Germans deserve it for electing dangerous leaders. They had ample time to shot Hitler.

The Germans didn't elect Hitler and even if they had, this does not justify collective responsibility for an entire ethnic group.

And Germans (and Austrians) weren't held collectively responsible for all war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by the Third Reich.
Proof?
Not every German who was an adult in 1933 was hanged as a war criminal.

[Lady Scylla]

The Germans deserve it for electing dangerous leaders. They had ample time to shot Hitler.

They tried, many times.

42 to be exact.

[Lady Scylla]

It's usually overlooked since, you know, victors write history and all that, but the Allies in many way were just as awful as the Axis. Britain, for example, firebombed entire German cities. Where were the trials for that? Oh right, there wasn't any.

Rather moot point. While atrocious by today's standards, given the equipment of the time and how war was fought then; civilians were fair game and that wasn't just WWII. Furthermore, neither side had the "moral high ground" in that, and at this point in time it's just meaningless finger-pointing.

[Crurnlark]

The ruling class is the only force that makes the world move, and the little men have to pay the consequences? No way!

[The Huskar Social Union]

The Brutality against many German civilians was not needed at all, but at the same time the people of Europe, especially Eastern Europe had endured brutal occupations and attempts at ethnic cleansing at the hands of the Germans, so its honestly not that hard to see why they would attack like that once the war ended. I am not justifying it and think it went way out of proportion and should have been reserved for those actually carried out the crimes of the german government and military and those who had a hand in it, but it its somewhat understandable for why it happened.

And to be honest, probably would not have been able to stop it even if they tried. Well not all of it anyway. If i had personally went through it back then, and had my family go through, honestly dont know what my view would be, i hope i wouldnt do it but, i dont know really.

Germans saw themselves raped and abused brutally by Russians. Would that justify shooting and beating and abusing every ethnic Russian in Germany?

I did not justify it. So no it wouldnt