Christian Discussion Thread VII: The Christ Awakens.

[Germanic Scyths]

Exactly. Gays are included in the prohibition on sodomy and fornication.

It's like speaking to a brick wall.

listen can't I have a thought for myself can't I belive in what I wan to belive in so if I want to be both a Christian and a LGBTQ supporter then let me do so and gay people are not the enemy ok.

You can think what you personally believe, but that does not imply that it is truth. Both the Bible and Church Fathers (AFAIK) speak against sodomy. The Church is an authority and either you see the Bible as ineffable or you agree with the Church Father's opinion.

[The Archregimancy]

The tradition of Apostolic teachers is attested to in Holy Scripture, and certainly predates any denomination saying Scripture alone is sufficient; the Scriptural canon wasn't even established until later than 100 AD, people were still debating over exactly what books constituted Scripture. The Didache, for instance, is an important work from the first century of Christianity (in fact, the fast days it prescribes are still adhered to by the Orthodox Church), and many held it as canon, but it was ultimately not included in the canon of Scripture because no one knew who wrote it..

Much as I value the Didache on both historical and theological grounds, the statement 'it was ultimately not included in the canon of Scripture because no one knew who wrote it' is perhaps problematic.

Doubts over the authorship of Hebrews and doubts over the core authenticity of the (pseudoepigraphical) Petrine epistles - both of which date back at least as far as Eusebius, who was quite explicit on both points - didn't preclude their entry into Scripture.

By Eusebius' time the Didache was listed alongside Revelations as a work that some rejected, but others placed in the canon; he didn't place it in his list of wholly spurious works of unknown or dubious authorship.

It strikes me that the gradual fading of the Didache from the canon is more down to a simple lack of awareness of the work in the West rather than questions of authorship; it remained valued in the East for some time, but was gradually excluded from the Deuterocanonical books between the 4th and 8th centuries when it wasn't included in the full canon.

However, if you know of scholarship to the contrary, I'll happily take that on board.

[Angleter]

Depends a bit on what one considers a protestant prior to the reformation. Peter Waldo came long before the above mentioned and if one goes into proto-protestantism then both dates, figures and challenges to certain creeds become hugely disputed.

Interestingly, Peter Waldo held to the doctrines of sola scripture and sola fide prior to the Reformation, but his followers still retained many Catholic beliefs like Transubstantiation, veneration and intercession of saints, the devotion to Mary, etc. Well, the leaders reject the devotion of Mary, but many of laity still practiced it. For the Waldensians, their main issue was that they found the Roman Catholic clergy to be corrupt and felt that they had a duty to spread the Gospel regardless of what the church officials thought. However, once the Reformation happened, they Waldensians became solidly Reformed and rejected Transubstantiation and the other Catholic beliefs they held.

I was just reading up on early Christianity in Ireland earlier today. While Idk how different Celtic Christianity was from Roman Catholicism in doctrine, but I some of the evangelists like Columbana were actually persecuted by the RCC and he attacked them in return, throwing Scripture at them. This was before the 1000 AD (I think this was the Fifth Century), so I don't think the Irish joined the RCC yet.

Columbana did not approve of idolatry and demanded the converts from paganism to destroy their idols before he would baptize them, so Idk what he thought about the veneration of saints and icons in the churches.

The main distinguishing features of 'Celtic Christianity' were a heavy reliance on monasticism (and a unique monastic tonsure), a unique method of dating Easter, a particularly strong cult of saints, the idea of going into 'exile for Christ' as a spiritual practice, and (in Ireland) the practice of private and regular confession of sins to a priest. None of these were matters of doctrinal difference (or, at least, not ones with much significance today), but had generally cropped up as a result of poor communication between the British Isles and mainland Europe after the Romans abandoned Britain in the early 5th century, and the unique circumstances of Britain and Ireland. The Irish and Britons most certainly considered themselves part of the universal Church.

The emphasis on monasticism, for example, was largely due to the fact that Ireland (and, to a lesser extent, the Brythonic territories) were scarcely, if at all, urbanised, making the organisation of the Church around bishops based in major urban areas difficult. Therefore, major monasteries (based, of course, in the countryside) and their abbots were particularly important to the functioning of the Church in Ireland, and so the abbots of the major monasteries (Armagh, Kildare, and for a time Iona) simultaneously served as bishops. That practice endured until the 12th century, when Ireland was conquered by Henry II, ostensibly in order to reform the Church in Ireland along Continental lines.

As for the controversy over Easter, the Celtic churches had, through loss of contact with the Continent, failed to keep up with improvements in calculating the date of Easter, and were still using a 3rd century system which was gradually getting more inaccurate and (perhaps more seriously) allowed Easter to be celebrated on Nisan 14 (the starting date of Passover), rather than ensuring that it occurred at some point in the following week. The Irish and Britons became aware of the discrepancy when the English began to be evangelised from the Continent in 597, and over the next two centuries, they slowly conformed to the Roman method.

The saints' cults emerged, I'd imagine, because early medieval Celtic societies were hyper-localised (far more so than in the English territories or mainland Europe), thus making it easy for small communities to come to venerate a local 'saint', and do so unchallenged - as a result, in any case, Cornwall in particular has a laundry list of obscure medieval 'saints', about whom we generally know next to nothing, and many of whom probably never even existed. 'Exile for Christ' developed because the Irish and Britons took particularly to heart Augustine's suggestion that Christians should spend a period of time 'in exile' - away from their family and friends - in preparation for the Kingdom of God. And the method of confession used in Ireland was introduced to mainland Europe by St Columbanus and grew in popularity until, in the High Middle Ages, it became the normal (and then mandatory) method of confession in the Western Church (it's worth noting, however, that Continental Christians almost certainly did have some form of private confession in early medieval times, although it would be followed by a public expression of contrition and public absolution - the Celtic, and later universal, practice was to have the entire process conducted in private).

Are you referring to St Columba, or St Columbanus? Columba (according to tradition, at least) went into 'exile for Christ' in Iona after he incited two major uprisings - the first after the King ruled against him in a copyright dispute over a psalter; and the the second after the King broke his sanctuary. Columbanus fell out with the bishops of Francia over the Celtic dating of Easter (the Franks had, at that time, their own method of dating Easter, which was also outdated), and with the King of Burgundy over the latter's womanising - however, since he generated no controversy over the dating of Easter when he had moved on to Italy, it's likely that he conformed to the Roman practice; he frequently (and unsuccessfully) appealed to the Pope in his disputes with the Frankish hierarchy; and wrote consistently about his and the Irish nation in general's devotion to the Papacy.

[The newfound islands]

well how about Methodism and I also happen to be a Methodist and I don't think that shunning all other denomination's by saying that there is only one true form of Christianity is right oh but let me guess us Methodist's aren't true Christians well we belive in God and Jesus and yes we may not do all of those silly things that you Catholics do but we are as Christian as you so don't you shun us cause we belive in a different way we are Christians.

It should be noted that Holiness Methodists and other theologically conservative Methodists oppose homosexual acts, & consider going to church very important.

well I am an independent Methodist and I don't go to church I mean I keep saying that but it's like you all are blind to what i'm saying and you don't have to go to church to belive in God.

[G-Tech Corporation]

It should be noted that Holiness Methodists and other theologically conservative Methodists oppose homosexual acts, & consider going to church very important.

well I am an independent Methodist and I don't go to church I mean I keep saying that but it's like you all are blind to what i'm saying and you don't have to go to church to belive in God.

Actually, Christians are called to go to church specifically. Not necessarily a physical building, or a sermon, but fellowship with other believers is of paramount importance.

[The newfound islands]

well I am an independent Methodist and I don't go to church I mean I keep saying that but it's like you all are blind to what i'm saying and you don't have to go to church to belive in God.

Actually, Christians are called to go to church specifically. Not necessarily a physical building, or a sermon, but fellowship with other believers is of paramount importance.

wow have you not been reading what I posted so let me get this straight you belive that I should only pray to to God and read the Bible only in the church but I can't do those things in my own home wow that's messed up.

[Herskerstad]

Apparently a portion of the the All-Russian procession for the cross, peace and love was stopped by Ukrainian authorities and given that they found hand-grenades, hardly the tool of any of the former mentioned, and the figures responsible have been taken into custody.

Given that these are officials and the Orthodox church in Ukraine is facing internal issues I find it baffling that officials in said larger church would actively participate in this strange hybrid war. Further given that this march was organised by the Moscow patriarchate which also got a huge stake in Ukraine it will likely get repercussions, and I can see why.

[Menassa]

Actually, Christians are called to go to church specifically. Not necessarily a physical building, or a sermon, but fellowship with other believers is of paramount importance.

wow have you not been reading what I posted so let me get this straight you belive that I should only pray to to God and read the Bible only in the church but I can't do those things in my own home wow that's messed up.

He means church as the body of believers.

[Nordengrund]

Interestingly, Peter Waldo held to the doctrines of sola scripture and sola fide prior to the Reformation, but his followers still retained many Catholic beliefs like Transubstantiation, veneration and intercession of saints, the devotion to Mary, etc. Well, the leaders reject the devotion of Mary, but many of laity still practiced it. For the Waldensians, their main issue was that they found the Roman Catholic clergy to be corrupt and felt that they had a duty to spread the Gospel regardless of what the church officials thought. However, once the Reformation happened, they Waldensians became solidly Reformed and rejected Transubstantiation and the other Catholic beliefs they held.

I was just reading up on early Christianity in Ireland earlier today. While Idk how different Celtic Christianity was from Roman Catholicism in doctrine, but I some of the evangelists like Columbana were actually persecuted by the RCC and he attacked them in return, throwing Scripture at them. This was before the 1000 AD (I think this was the Fifth Century), so I don't think the Irish joined the RCC yet.

Columbana did not approve of idolatry and demanded the converts from paganism to destroy their idols before he would baptize them, so Idk what he thought about the veneration of saints and icons in the churches.

The main distinguishing features of 'Celtic Christianity' were a heavy reliance on monasticism (and a unique monastic tonsure), a unique method of dating Easter, a particularly strong cult of saints, the idea of going into 'exile for Christ' as a spiritual practice, and (in Ireland) the practice of private and regular confession of sins to a priest. None of these were matters of doctrinal difference (or, at least, not ones with much significance today), but had generally cropped up as a result of poor communication between the British Isles and mainland Europe after the Romans abandoned Britain in the early 5th century, and the unique circumstances of Britain and Ireland. The Irish and Britons most certainly considered themselves part of the universal Church.

The emphasis on monasticism, for example, was largely due to the fact that Ireland (and, to a lesser extent, the Brythonic territories) were scarcely, if at all, urbanised, making the organisation of the Church around bishops based in major urban areas difficult. Therefore, major monasteries (based, of course, in the countryside) and their abbots were particularly important to the functioning of the Church in Ireland, and so the abbots of the major monasteries (Armagh, Kildare, and for a time Iona) simultaneously served as bishops. That practice endured until the 12th century, when Ireland was conquered by Henry II, ostensibly in order to reform the Church in Ireland along Continental lines.

As for the controversy over Easter, the Celtic churches had, through loss of contact with the Continent, failed to keep up with improvements in calculating the date of Easter, and were still using a 3rd century system which was gradually getting more inaccurate and (perhaps more seriously) allowed Easter to be celebrated on Nisan 14 (the starting date of Passover), rather than ensuring that it occurred at some point in the following week. The Irish and Britons became aware of the discrepancy when the English began to be evangelised from the Continent in 597, and over the next two centuries, they slowly conformed to the Roman method.

The saints' cults emerged, I'd imagine, because early medieval Celtic societies were hyper-localised (far more so than in the English territories or mainland Europe), thus making it easy for small communities to come to venerate a local 'saint', and do so unchallenged - as a result, in any case, Cornwall in particular has a laundry list of obscure medieval 'saints', about whom we generally know next to nothing, and many of whom probably never even existed. 'Exile for Christ' developed because the Irish and Britons took particularly to heart Augustine's suggestion that Christians should spend a period of time 'in exile' - away from their family and friends - in preparation for the Kingdom of God. And the method of confession used in Ireland was introduced to mainland Europe by St Columbanus and grew in popularity until, in the High Middle Ages, it became the normal (and then mandatory) method of confession in the Western Church (it's worth noting, however, that Continental Christians almost certainly did have some form of private confession in early medieval times, although it would be followed by a public expression of contrition and public absolution - the Celtic, and later universal, practice was to have the entire process conducted in private).

Are you referring to St Columba, or St Columbanus? Columba (according to tradition, at least) went into 'exile for Christ' in Iona after he incited two major uprisings - the first after the King ruled against him in a copyright dispute over a psalter; and the the second after the King broke his sanctuary. Columbanus fell out with the bishops of Francia over the Celtic dating of Easter (the Franks had, at that time, their own method of dating Easter, which was also outdated), and with the King of Burgundy over the latter's womanising - however, since he generated no controversy over the dating of Easter when he had moved on to Italy, it's likely that he conformed to the Roman practice; he frequently (and unsuccessfully) appealed to the Pope in his disputes with the Frankish hierarchy; and wrote consistently about his and the Irish nation in general's devotion to the Papacy.

Very informative, thank you!

I was referring to Columbanus about the converts destroying their idols before he would baptize them. IIRC, I think Columba was the one who converted the Scots and the Picts. Their names sound alike, so I may have been confused there.

I was curious about there view about the saints veneration because some sites I visited are Protestant and spoke positively of St. Patrick, Columba, and Celtic monasticism.

What do you mean by saints' cult. I recall that Patrick and Columba were greatly admired among Celtic Christians. Is that what you mean?

[Germanic Scyths]

Apparently a portion of the the All-Russian procession for the cross, peace and love was stopped by Ukrainian authorities and given that they found hand-grenades, hardly the tool of any of the former mentioned, and the figures responsible have been taken into custody.

Given that these are officials and the Orthodox church in Ukraine is facing internal issues I find it baffling that officials in said larger church would actively participate in this strange hybrid war. Further given that this march was organised by the Moscow patriarchate which also got a huge stake in Ukraine it will likely get repercussions, and I can see why.

Religion often, sadly, intermingles with politics.

[Menassa]

Apparently a portion of the the All-Russian procession for the cross, peace and love was stopped by Ukrainian authorities and given that they found hand-grenades, hardly the tool of any of the former mentioned, and the figures responsible have been taken into custody.

Given that these are officials and the Orthodox church in Ukraine is facing internal issues I find it baffling that officials in said larger church would actively participate in this strange hybrid war. Further given that this march was organised by the Moscow patriarchate which also got a huge stake in Ukraine it will likely get repercussions, and I can see why.

Religion often, sadly, intermingles with politics.

There was a time, where it was politics.

[G-Tech Corporation]

wow have you not been reading what I posted so let me get this straight you belive that I should only pray to to God and read the Bible only in the church but I can't do those things in my own home wow that's messed up.

He means church as the body of believers.

Precisely. The church is not a building, or a pastor/priest. But it is more than one man sitting alone and trying to walk in faith by himself.

[Nordengrund]

Apparently a portion of the the All-Russian procession for the cross, peace and love was stopped by Ukrainian authorities and given that they found hand-grenades, hardly the tool of any of the former mentioned, and the figures responsible have been taken into custody.

Given that these are officials and the Orthodox church in Ukraine is facing internal issues I find it baffling that officials in said larger church would actively participate in this strange hybrid war. Further given that this march was organised by the Moscow patriarchate which also got a huge stake in Ukraine it will likely get repercussions, and I can see why.

Religion often, sadly, intermingles with politics.

I think Christianity is too political and many churches take political stances. They most not endorse a party or candidate, but they often take an official political position on issues like abortion, capital punishment, war, etc.

It would probably seem odd to early Christianity and the Church Fathers as they were persecuted by the military and government, which involves politics. The same government that promotes and upholds Christian values is also capable of departing from it and persecuting Christians.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Religion often, sadly, intermingles with politics.

I think Christianity is too political and many churches take political stances. They most not endorse a party or candidate, but they often take an official political position on issues like abortion, capital punishment, war, etc.

It would probably seem odd to early Christianity and the Church Fathers as they were persecuted by the military and government, which involves politics. The same government that promotes and upholds Christian values is also capable of departing from it and persecuting Christians.

*shrug*

Social issues often have standpoints from a Christian perspective that are more or less preferable. Churches being part of politics is a natural consequence of politics involving value judgements.

[Trumpostan]

Exactly. Gays are included in the prohibition on sodomy and fornication.

It's like speaking to a brick wall.

listen can't I have a thought for myself can't I belive in what I wan to belive in so if I want to be both a Christian and a LGBTQ supporter then let me do so and gay people are not the enemy ok.

They are as per the bible and the GOP platform.

Which is why I support neither

[Eisen Choras]

listen can't I have a thought for myself can't I belive in what I wan to belive in so if I want to be both a Christian and a LGBTQ supporter then let me do so and gay people are not the enemy ok.

They are as per the bible and the GOP platform.

Which is why I support neither

Useless posting is useless.

[G-Tech Corporation]

They are as per the bible and the GOP platform.

Which is why I support neither

Useless posting is useless.

Well, we are talking Trumpostan

[The newfound islands]

listen can't I have a thought for myself can't I belive in what I wan to belive in so if I want to be both a Christian and a LGBTQ supporter then let me do so and gay people are not the enemy ok.

They are as per the bible and the GOP platform.

Which is why I support neither

so you're not a republican is that right well I happen to be a republican and i'm not going to vote for that liar Hillary Clinton plus Hillary is bad for gay people.

[Trumpostan]

They are as per the bible and the GOP platform.

Which is why I support neither

Useless posting is useless.

Factual post is factual, you mean?

[Eisen Choras]

Useless posting is useless.

Factual post is factual, you mean?

No, useless. Kinda like this argument.

[Trumpostan]

They are as per the bible and the GOP platform.

Which is why I support neither

so you're not a republican is that right well I happen to be a republican and i'm not going to vote for that liar Hillary Clinton plus Hillary is bad for gay people.

Considering some of the things in your sig are contradictory I'm gonna go out on a limb and say at least one of them is a lie. If you dislike liars you can't like record-setting liar Trump.

[The newfound islands]

so you're not a republican is that right well I happen to be a republican and i'm not going to vote for that liar Hillary Clinton plus Hillary is bad for gay people.

Considering some of the things in your sig are contradictory I'm gonna go out on a limb and say at least one of them is a lie. If you dislike liars you can't like record-setting liar Trump.

well I don't like trump but I don't like Hillary even more and yes i'm sadly going to vote for Trump *almost barfs*

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Actually, Christians are called to go to church specifically. Not necessarily a physical building, or a sermon, but fellowship with other believers is of paramount importance.

wow have you not been reading what I posted so let me get this straight you belive that I should only pray to to God and read the Bible only in the church but I can't do those things in my own home wow that's messed up.

Dude, why can't you get this through your head? It's not a one or the other situation. It's not "read and pray at home, and don't go to church" vs "go to church and don't read and pray at home".


You're supposed to do both. Pray and read at home, and at least the sabbath day (Sunday) go to Church and commune with fellow Christians. It's not that hard a concept.

[Diopolis]

I don't see how that makes them any less blinded by their own cultural matrices. Besides, 'homosexuality' as we see it today wasn't really a thing back then, at least not prevalently. Most people at the time would have associated it more with the type of stuff NAMbLA pushes for and not with the mainstream gay rights crowd.

No, but women were also generally get married at about the age of the younger party in a homosexual relationship, so you might as well say heterosexuality wasn't really a thing back then as well.

And let's note that early Christian converts were mostly among the roman and greek middle class, among whom it was entirely acceptable for adult men to take teenaged boys as partners in place of marriage. Generally, they were old enough that it would not be pedophilia- although we might very well consider the relationship creepy on account of the age difference, it was actually a smaller age difference than was normal for heterosexual marriages at the time, and the relationships were pretty clearly consensual.
We can also tell that the scriptural injunction against homosexuality was not based off of concerns about prostitution because prostitutes were separately condemned a line or two before the condemnation of homosexuality.

[The newfound islands]

wow have you not been reading what I posted so let me get this straight you belive that I should only pray to to God and read the Bible only in the church but I can't do those things in my own home wow that's messed up.

Dude, why can't you get this through your head? It's not a one or the other situation. It's not "read and pray at home, and don't go to church" vs "go to church and don't read and pray at home".


You're supposed to do both. Pray and read at home, and at least the sabbath day (Sunday) go to Church and commune with fellow Christians. It's not that hard a concept.

well I don't go to church but i'm still a Christian and a proud one too and I support gay rights even if you all don't and I will vote for Trump even though he's a racist,sexist bigot so don't tell me who to support,who to love,who to pray too and how to pray because i'm human just like you all and y'all really need to get that through your skulls.