ThePeacekeepers wrote:And Christ during his three days of death descended into Sheol to save those who had already gone before him. How could he do that if they were unconscious?
I believe you are mistaken Yahshua was not dead for three days but instead was in the heart of the earth for three days as it says.
Matthew 12:40
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
The heart of the earth at the time was the Sanhedrin court which was the Lord's seat of Authority on the earth. And he was in their custody for three days, as he said he would be.
Now on this I must study with my pastor. And ask him for the study because it is very in-depth and I would really hate to get something wrong so as soon as I get the study from him I will address it further.
I don't really like to be this blunt, but no that is incorrect. At no point, in any source is the Sanhedrin referred to as "the heart of the Earth." The Sanhedrin aren't even the "heart" of the Jewish religion, at best you could make an argument for the Temple and Priests, being the "heart" but even that is a stretch. It's never been referred to to as that.
Further, the Greek here for Earth is γῆς the genitive case of γῆ which means literal earth, the ground. The Greek phrase here is ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ τῆς γῆς, which without going too much into Koine grammer, literately means to be in the ground.
To even possibly be referring to the Sanhedrin,. the phrase would have to be ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ τοῦ κόσμου "in the heart of the world."
Mathew 12:40 refers to the three days of Jesus's death. He was crucified, descended into the heart of the earth, which you'll remember from the picture is Sheol, and on the third day rose again. (It's Hebrew custom to refer to even part of the day as constituting the whole 24 hour period day and night, so even though he was killed on Friday and Raised again Sunday morning, a time period of aproximately 36 hours, the first century Jews would have recorded this as 3 days)."
And he did,... during those three days.But as to speaking to the souls who were unconscious, the bible talks about Yahshua ministering to the spirits that were in prison and also about Moses and Elias speaking with Yahshua on a mountain. So it is apparent that if the Lord wishes to speak with the dead then he can do so. As he had to give those who died a chance for salvation that they previously did not have, and would instead have been cast into the lake of fire on the day of judgment.
1 Peter 3:18-19
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
It was the will of the Lord God Yahweh that Yahshua died. It was Lucifer who had him killed though.
I don't know what distinction you're trying to make here. Lucifer is not God. Christ is God. Lucifer literally has no power over Christ than what Jesus allows him to have. Lucifer is still subject to Jesus's will.
Jesus. being the Word and Son, is subject to the Father's will. (The Godhead really can be confusing)
“My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet not what I want but what you want.” 40 Then he came to the disciples and found them sleeping; and he said to Peter, “So, could you not stay awake with me one hour? 41 Stay awake and pray that you may not come into the time of trial;[a] the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” 42 Again he went away for the second time and prayed, “My Father, if this cannot pass unless I drink it, your will be done.”
This whole thing was God's will. Lucifer was just an actor in the play God had composed. If Lucifer had any choice in the matter, he would have spared Christ, as Christ's death was the ultimate victory over sin and Satan. If anything, it is the ultimate punishment for Satan, to have to manifest his own defeat.
Now how does that play into Praying to the Saints? The Saints are not unconscious as you assert. They are Conscious and dwell with the Lord. What we call Saint's are those who have fully entered Heaven (they're not entering Heaven via purgatory), and have held up as being exemplary Christians. We try to follow their example, like Paul said to do "1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ." (1 Corinthians 11:1) and we pray to them, to pray for us to the Lord our God, as we would any other Christian, so that they might lift our prayers up to the Lord as seen in Revelation 5:"8 When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. " (It seems fitting to differentiate between saint and Saint, here. "saint" refers to all Christians, while Saint is how we use the word to day, good Christians. the "Saint's" in this verse are represented by the elders, holding up the prayers of the saints (Christians). So you are right in asserting that we should not pray to those who are dead. However, when we pray to the Saints, we don't pray to the dead, we are praying to those who are alive in Christ and dwell in the Abode of the Lord.
John 3:11-17
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
No man hath ascended into heaven.
....You realize there is a linear timeline right? Christ had not died when he spoke these words, thus no man had ascended into heaven. It wasn't until after he had died so that man could ascend.
No, that is how evil men have used it. Are you saying then that Christ's death is the work of Satan? That the sacrifice was not God's will but the Devil's? If so then he is not the Messiah, and we are all under sin, and nobody goes to heaven anyway. Thankfully that is not what the Scripture tells us. Men may have used this instrument for evil. But God used it for his own beautiful purpose.
The cross was used for thousands of years by all sorts of pagan religions, but barring that it was still an instrument of evil. It was the Lords will that Yahshua die for the salvation of all men, but it was not by his hand that he died but by the hand of Lucifer.
Again, Lucifer is just a player in the divine plan. He's still under God's authority. The notion that Lucifer had the capacity to kill God is near blasphemous. Christianity is not dualist, the Devil is not equal in power to God.
Christ was in full control over his fate.
"53 Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then would the scriptures be fulfilled, which say it must happen in this way?”"
11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." ]
"Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? 'Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this purpose I came to this hour"
"Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father"
Christ went willingly to the Cross [i]Chose The Cross, and through the Cross, Lucifer is defeated. Once again, while it may have been used by evil men before, God took it, sanctified it with his Blood, and delivered us from perdition. In that way, the Cross of Christ is a truly holy thing.
I mean it's redundant at this point, Satan is under the heel of God and can do nothing that God doesn't allow. Satan may have been the agent that twisted Judas, but it was all God's will. Christs death was not the work of the Devil, it was the will of God.
So you see, the Crucifix does not violate the commandment against Idols, for man did not choose it, man did not make it or designate it for themselves. God chose the Cross as the instrument of His passion, His sacrifice of perfect love for all mankind. The Icon of the Crucifix depicts the suffering of Christ, so we may not forget the intensity by which He shed His blood for us, that He suffered and died for us. We do not worship the Crucifix, as one would if it were an Idol. We worship that which the Crucifix represents and brings to mind: God, and God alone.
The cross in an unholy image, a graven image, that false Christians have raised up and worshiped as their idol. You bear the graven Image on your person, you pray with it, you kneel before it. The Lord has spoken on this, his will be done.
You're right he did:
And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me."
The men who killed Yahshua did not do it out of Holiness or by the guidance of Yahweh but out of their hatred, and guided by Lucifer. They were the ones who chose the means by which he died, they wanted him to suffer. But it was Yahweh's will that he die.
You don't get to call things false, when you don't even know the definition of words. Once again you are using Graven incorrectly. It does not bear negative connotation: it means "deeply impressed; firmly fixed" In the connotations of Exodus 20:4 graven is translated from פֶּסֶל which means "a carved idol" Graven=carved. Graven=/= evil.
It is irrelevant, who or for what motive the Actors had, they carried out the will of the Father. Ironically you quoted the passage that confirms this.
"11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin."
The only false Christian here, is your "Pastor" who tries to tell you that the Death of Christ was evil.
A few bits of advice going forward:
1. Pick a better translation. The KJV is a beautiful work, but it's a product of its time, has many confusing inaccuracies and utilizes words that have evolved in meaning and connotation since then. The NAB, NRSV, ESV, are all solid translations attested to by Scholars and Clergy alike, and they're much easier to work with.
2. Please structure your posts more compactly. Theological debates are more than just posting walls of scripture, expecting them to speak for themselves. Present the arguments you are making fully, and support it with scripture. And if you're going to be posting entire chapters please spoiler them.
And here's a bit of logical question for you, Iconography in Christian usage dates back to at least the second century. The Bible wasn't codified until the 4th century. Why would the Church, codify Scripture that directly contradicted its practices? (Hint: it wouldn't)
The Cross is not evil and was held up by Christ and the Christians who wrote the books of the Bible
1 Corinthians 1:18: For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Matthew 10:38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
I don't know what obscure sect of Christianity you belong to, but if what you say is true, that only false Christians "revere" the Cross, then there have never been true Christians.
