The UK Referendum on Membership of the European Union

[Valaran]

Nazi Germany was the third Reich, the EU could be called the fourth.

I presume this is a joke, right?

[Dooom35796821595]

Nazi Germany was the third Reich, the EU could be called the fourth.

I presume this is a joke, right?

Not really. Remember, there were two Reichs before the Nazis.

[Marcurix]

Australia seems to join the list of countries favouring an "in" vote.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu- ... m-36183444

Those dastardly Strayans.

And the Kiwi's, they're in it together.

[Valaran]

I presume this is a joke, right?

Not really. Remember, there were two Reichs before the Nazis.

Having studied both of those periods extensively, I am aware. But the word reich simply means 'realm', which is nothing specific. Moreover, the it has very loaded ideas attached. If you meant to imply the EU is a monarchy, either a Germanic or a Christian one, I'd be interested to hear your case.

[Ifreann]

Those dastardly Strayans.

And the Kiwi's, they're in it together.

All of Upsidedownia has turned again their British overlords!

[The Nihilistic view]

Nazi Germany was the third Reich, the EU could be called the fourth.

I presume this is a joke, right?

Jawohl Oberleutnant Valaran.

[Ad Nihilo]

When it's obvious that some thing will end soon, why to prolong the agony?

Wouldn't it be better, if UK declared war on Germany in 1936, instead of useless attempts to prolong status quo?

In some moment, it's better to stop lie each other and say: Well, we had good intentions, but we failed.

Almost certainly not.

What cause would there even be in 1936 to declare war?

Remilitarization of the Rhineland, I guess. That was I think the first blatant "fuck you" to the Treaty of Versailles.

[Socialist Czechia]

Almost certainly not.

What cause would there even be in 1936 to declare war?

Remilitarization of the Rhineland, I guess. That was I think the first blatant "fuck you" to the Treaty of Versailles.

...and German Chancellor was this time, probably the first and last time before war, really nervous about that.

But fortunately to him, Great War victors apparently needed much more time to grow their lost balls.

[Ad Nihilo]

Its not obvious though.

Yeah, but the EU is not Nazi Germany.

I haven't seen failure yet.

Nazi Germany was the third Reich, the EU could be called the fourth.

Fun fact: the second Reich's leading industrialists were fucking furious with the Kaiser when he went and started WW1. They were already poised to completely dominate Europe through industry and trade, and all they needed to do is to expand their existing custom's union.

Still...

1) Just how the EU is a German Reich when Germany only "rules" by veto and in fact keeps getting accused (fairly) for not taking a leadership role commensurate to its position in the Union? (the notable exception is the refugee crisis, where Merkel gone done good).

2) The only reason why the EU is dominated by Germany rather than the UK is because we keep behaving like schizophrenic drama queens. We could have been the de facto leader of the precursors of the EU and shaped how the EU emerged according to our own hearts' content as has been pointed out before in this thread, and if we stay in the EU we'd still be poised to have a larger population and economy than Germany by 2030. And we could even save the Euro if we weren't so far up our own arses (by imposing on Germany the need for fiscal union commensurate with the monetary union. We'd be in a better position to do this from within the Eurozone, but we can still do it from the outside).

[Imperializt Russia]

Remilitarization of the Rhineland, I guess. That was I think the first blatant "fuck you" to the Treaty of Versailles.

...and German Chancellor was this time, probably the first and last time before war, really nervous about that.

But fortunately to him, Great War victors apparently needed much more time to grow their lost balls.

Of course, because fighting a war that none of you are equipped to over something that plenty of people might actually sympathise over at the time is "lack of balls".

[Ad Nihilo]

Remilitarization of the Rhineland, I guess. That was I think the first blatant "fuck you" to the Treaty of Versailles.

...and German Chancellor was this time, probably the first and last time before war, really nervous about that.

But fortunately to him, Great War victors apparently needed much more time to grow their lost balls.

Actually the problem was that both Britain and France had been busy dismantling their WW1 fighting capacity for the previous 15 years and still stuck in the Great Depression. They didn't think they had the military capacity of the money to do shit about it.

And as far as they could see, this was just a crackpot nationalist dictator playing to domestic politics, re-asserting the pride of the nation. Not something really worth restarting the Great War over.

Hindsight is 20/20. But with what they knew then, it was a perfectly sensible decision.

Incidentally, they didn't just sit on their arse after that either. It is as a direct consequence of this that Britain started re-arming. And it kept doing the same thing: re-arming and trying not to get into a fight while it was still too weak, until it no longer considered itself too weak: 1939.

[Socialist Czechia]

...and German Chancellor was this time, probably the first and last time before war, really nervous about that.

But fortunately to him, Great War victors apparently needed much more time to grow their lost balls.

Of course, because fighting a war that none of you are equipped to over something that plenty of people might actually sympathise over at the time is "lack of balls".

Actually, Wehrmacht in 1936 was just a joke, France would alone crushed by merely crossing a borders. It wasn't actually much better in 1938, when French and British were still just pissing their pants without doing much more.

[Imperializt Russia]

Of course, because fighting a war that none of you are equipped to over something that plenty of people might actually sympathise over at the time is "lack of balls".

Actually, Wehrmacht in 1936 was just a joke, France would alone crushed by merely crossing a borders. It wasn't actually much better in 1938, when French and British were still just pissing their pants without doing much more.

"Just a joke", France had no manpower. That's why the built the damned Maginot line. Britain, historically, has never been prepared to fight a war at the outset and rapidly ramps up to do so.

Neither France nor Britain were in any state to fight the Germans no matter how shitty you think the German Army was at that time. And there would have been no stomach to do so at that time.

[Socialist Czechia]

...and German Chancellor was this time, probably the first and last time before war, really nervous about that.

But fortunately to him, Great War victors apparently needed much more time to grow their lost balls.

Of course, because fighting a war that none of you are equipped to over something that plenty of people might actually sympathise over at the time is "lack of balls".

And by the way, nothing would have happened in 1930s, if France and Britain was truly determined to destroy Germany in 1919.

That means: direct annexations of further parts (South Schleswig to Denmark, whole Silesia to Poland, another parts to Belgium, France, Netherlands).
Independence of Bavaria, puppet Rhenish Republic, rest would be sorry rump state called 'Republic of Prussia', since even word 'Germany' would be banned from use.

Something like that.

But unfortunately, they wanted reparations more than destruction of German state.

[Imperializt Russia]

The German forces mutinied and couldn't fight. They surrendered. There was nothing left to do, unless you're suggesting the wanton slaughter of Germans because "fuck Germans lol".

Pushing for reparations was a relic of the old times when such matters would be solved through conference. It was an era that no longer existed. Partly why it failed.

[Ad Nihilo]

Of course, because fighting a war that none of you are equipped to over something that plenty of people might actually sympathise over at the time is "lack of balls".

And by the way, nothing would have happened in 1930s, if France and Britain was truly determined to destroy Germany in 1919.

That means: direct annexations of further parts (South Schleswig to Denmark, whole Silesia to Poland, another parts to Belgium, France, Netherlands).
Independence of Bavaria, puppet Rhenish Republic, rest would be sorry rump state called 'Republic of Prussia', since even word 'Germany' would be banned from use.

Something like that.

But unfortunately, they wanted reparations more than destruction of German state.

Except for that part where the majority of Germans wanted to live in a United Germany. What you are proposing would have resulted to the same kind of Nazi nationalism. It most it would have moved the eventual outcome a couple of years in either direction. (And that's not an idle consideration considering the parallel evolution of nuclear weapons.)

[The Alexanderians]

Actually, Wehrmacht in 1936 was just a joke, France would alone crushed by merely crossing a borders. It wasn't actually much better in 1938, when French and British were still just pissing their pants without doing much more.

"Just a joke", France had no manpower. That's why the built the damned Maginot line. Britain, historically, has never been prepared to fight a war at the outset and rapidly ramps up to do so.

Neither France nor Britain were in any state to fight the Germans no matter how shitty you think the German Army was at that time. And there would have been no stomach to do so at that time.

Not to Mention the Maginot Line was based on outdated ideas. Just overwhelm one spot hard enough and you can break through the whole thing since the stationary guns couldn't reverse. The line also had little depth so a break through would be relatively easy. Top it off with French officers having poor concepts of operational level maneuvers. The entire defense strategy was doomed to fail from the start.
The British had the advantage of the Channel which bought them enough time to start mounting defenses and consolidating their colonial and imperial assets.
Anything I misrepresented?

[Socialist Czechia]

The German forces mutinied and couldn't fight. They surrendered. There was nothing left to do, unless you're suggesting the wanton slaughter of Germans because "fuck Germans lol".

I just suggested they could totally balkanize Germany, to make them insignificant.
United German state would completely cease to exist, that would ensure peace in their time.

[Imperializt Russia]

"Just a joke", France had no manpower. That's why the built the damned Maginot line. Britain, historically, has never been prepared to fight a war at the outset and rapidly ramps up to do so.

Neither France nor Britain were in any state to fight the Germans no matter how shitty you think the German Army was at that time. And there would have been no stomach to do so at that time.

Not to Mention the Maginot Line was based on outdated ideas. Just overwhelm one spot hard enough and you can break through the whole thing since the stationary guns couldn't reverse. The line also had little depth so a break through would be relatively easy. Top it off with French officers having poor concepts of operational level maneuvers. The entire defense strategy was doomed to fail from the start.
The British had the advantage of the Channel which bought them enough time to start mounting defenses and consolidating their colonial and imperial assets.
Anything I misrepresented?

The Maginot Line.

The Maginot Line was an enormous defensive work. Its entire purpose was to deter Germany entirely, or force them through Belgium. In this, it worked perfectly.

[Socialist Czechia]

Except for that part where the majority of Germans wanted to live in a United Germany. What you are proposing would have resulted to the same kind of Nazi nationalism. It most it would have moved the eventual outcome a couple of years in either direction. (And that's not an idle consideration considering the parallel evolution of nuclear weapons.)

That would be only their problem. Everyone else in the Europe would be fine with that.

If they would rose up again, it would be much more difficult, it would took much more time and bloodshed amongst Germans themselves.

Again, everyone else would be fine with that.

[Ad Nihilo]

The German forces mutinied and couldn't fight. They surrendered. There was nothing left to do, unless you're suggesting the wanton slaughter of Germans because "fuck Germans lol".

I just suggested they could totally balkanize Germany, to make them insignificant.
United German state would completely cease to exist, that would ensure peace in their time.

Are you completely ignorant of the history of the Second Reich. Every German petty state had spent the previous 50 years trying to build a German Unified state with Prussia (or Austria). This is what most Germans wanted. They would have done it all over again.

[Ad Nihilo]

Except for that part where the majority of Germans wanted to live in a United Germany. What you are proposing would have resulted to the same kind of Nazi nationalism. It most it would have moved the eventual outcome a couple of years in either direction. (And that's not an idle consideration considering the parallel evolution of nuclear weapons.)

That would be only their problem. Everyone else in the Europe would be fine with that.

If they would rose up again, it would be much more difficult, it would took much more time and bloodshed amongst Germans themselves.

Again, everyone else would be fine with that.

You mean how the Sudenteland and the Austrian Anschluss took bloodshed? Again, this is something they all wanted, and had already achieved during the Second Reich. They knew how to do it, and they wanted to do it and they would have done it either way. And if it had taken then 5 more years to get to where we were in 1939, WW2 would have been fought with nukes.

[Imperializt Russia]

That would be only their problem. Everyone else in the Europe would be fine with that.

If they would rose up again, it would be much more difficult, it would took much more time and bloodshed amongst Germans themselves.

Again, everyone else would be fine with that.

You mean how the Sudenteland and the Austrian Anschluss took bloodshed? Again, this is something they all wanted, and had already achieved during the Second Reich. They knew how to do it, and they wanted to do it and they would have done it either way. And if it had taken then 5 more years to get to where we were in 1939, WW2 would have been fought with nukes.

No it wouldn't.

[Saiwania]

The Maginot Line was an enormous defensive work. Its entire purpose was to deter Germany entirely, or force them through Belgium. In this, it worked perfectly.

It failed to prevent the Germans from flanking the line through the Ardennes which was thought to be an impassible forest for tanks. Did the line have any counter whatsoever against the Luftwaffe having paratroops land behind the line and taking it that way?

[Socialist Czechia]

You mean how the Sudenteland and the Austrian Anschluss took bloodshed? Again, this is something they all wanted, and had already achieved during the Second Reich. They knew how to do it, and they wanted to do it and they would have done it either way. And if it had taken then 5 more years to get to where we were in 1939, WW2 would have been fought with nukes.

Ok, let's theoretize (although I am so much offtopic now, that I totally expect admins to kick me in the ass soon):

Germany balkanized into: Bavaria, puppet Rhenish state, rump Prussian state, larger and very rich parts of Germany annexed directly into France, Poland, Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium.

How would you start in this scenario as pissed off charismatic German nationalist?